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Stacey

Flying Ointment

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Guest Vala

I began actually practicing in earnest sometime between 13-15. And I mean very serious sorts of stuff, taken from Crowley. No one told me how to be safe about it, so I'm lucky I didn't do more damage. Normally I'm all for "Share and share alike" - but there's always a catch.

 

 

 

The Catch: There is no "Safer sex" practice for banefuls. Not because "any amount" will kill you , but because there is no way for anyone outside of a laboratory to know what the content of any specific chemical is in the plant. Because, well, plants are living things. EVERY step in the experimentation is a potential hospital visit, if not worse.

 

Let's just use Datura as an example:

Party A buys a variety of Datura seed online. They invest in a large pot, fill it with nutrient rich compost and the like. Give it the site-recommended drainage, water levels, and fertilizers. They put it in the optimal placement on their porch and prune it back regularly to prevent leggy growth. They experiment with it routinely and find a dose of dry materia by weight that hits just the right spot. They pull another batch three months later, and end up in the hospital in and out of a coma for a week. What's the difference? Spring, versus Summer. Or Summer versus Fall. Or Winter versus Spring... or maybe she skipped a watering. Maybe aphids moved in. Maybe she selected younger or older leaves. Maybe some neighbor kid has been walking by and hitting the plant with a stick a lot during Summer break. Maybe the plant cross-pollinated with a nearby wild Datura via the sexy backside of a Bee, and has gone into overdrive to protect it's seeds?

 

Unless you have directly experimented with the EXACT batch, using the EXACT materials, from the EXACT same source - you cannot know what it will do. You cannot say it is "safe" or "unsafe" or "scorched earth scenario, write your will right now, buddy, because your ass is out the door, down the lubricated fun-slide to hell" until you try it, and maybe it's too late.

 

Add to that that every person's biochemistry, sensitivity, and tolerance on a psychological level is different from the next, and there's just no way. I'm a hard-drinker, I have a high tolerance for my head being thrown for a loop. I can handle XYZ amount of hard alcohol. But I have a friend who gets a little panicky after they get a buzz from a beer. My "dose" would be hell, if not hospital, for them.

 

So, there is no safe dose, no safe practice, no safe advice. It is a mine field. You enter it blind and at your own risk.

 

 

:clap: :beerchug: I agree with this 100%.

 

Lol Whiterose, that post was unnecessary as obviously you agree with her, her post is basically saying she agrees with you in the first place.

 

Scylla-I understand your point; however there are plants that are more safe than others, less toxic, and with less serious side effects. :)

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Lol Whiterose, that post was unnecessary as obviously you agree with her, her post is basically saying she agrees with you in the first place.

 

Scylla-I understand your point; however there are plants that are more safe than others, less toxic, and with less serious side effects. :)

 

 

Unnecessary? Wow. Immaturity indeed. I think someone's status touched on this very thing. Those were wise words.

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I'm a hard-drinker, I have a high tolerance for my head being thrown for a loop. I can handle XYZ amount of hard alcohol. But I have a friend who gets a little panicky after they get a buzz from a beer. My "dose" would be hell, if not hospital, for them.

 

I actually completely understand your point using it this way because I am in the minority of people who can't drink. Yes can't drink, I have some really bizarre reaction to it. I get the symptoms and pains of a hangover and this could be from two sips of a orange and vodka, my tolerance to a flying ointment is yet to be tested but mine was fairly tame in the entheogen herb content (not mentioning the herbs of course).

 

The reason I didn't post the herbs or the amounts, recipe whatever was because I fully understand that there will be types who will do something stupid or alter it to get more of a buzz or hardcore reaction. I think a perfect example is this blog post at the Alchemist's Garden.

 

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I actually completely understand your point using it this way because I am in the minority of people who can't drink. Yes can't drink, I have some really bizarre reaction to it. I get the symptoms and pains of a hangover and this could be from two sips of a orange and vodka, my tolerance to a flying ointment is yet to be tested but mine was fairly tame in the entheogen herb content (not mentioning the herbs of course).

 

The reason I didn't post the herbs or the amounts, recipe whatever was because I fully understand that there will be types who will do something stupid or alter it to get more of a buzz or hardcore reaction. I think a perfect example is this blog post at the Alchemist's Garden.

 

 

 

Hahaha! "Stupidity cooties" I love it.

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Guest Vala

Unnecessary? Wow. Immaturity indeed. I think someone's status touched on this very thing. Those were wise words.

 

O_O

I meant that in friendly jest... not as a rude comment. I apologize if it came across wrong.

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You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. However, I believe the analogy is a good one. There are schools where safe sex is not taught until the higher grades- either because the administration is unaware of how young kids have sex or because they believe acknowledging it is condoning it. I personally know people who had sex as early as the age of 13. And those were often the ages when people engaged in unsafe practices. And age is not the limiting factor when it comes to witchcraft. There are 50 year old witches that are more inexperienced than 20 year olds. If those discussions are relegated to the members section, I was unaware, as I am a Seeker on this site. But I don't feel that I'm wrong to argue that posting a safe dosage alongside warnings of what could result if those dosages are exceeded could increase safety. If the admin choose not to have that information available here, that's their prerogative. However, the concept behind *information=safety* does hold water.

I am concerned that folks got stuck my age metaphor and missed that people, experienced people have died or been put in the psych ward eatng these banefuls. Read up on Robert Cochrane. There is no safe dosage, as others have reiterated. There are fairly safe forms of sex. And its a fairly wel known, done by most peoole thing, versus an obscure unresearched area.

 

And of course you didn't know we talk about somethings like this a little bit in the private area, thats why I told you, but it has been mentioned ealeier in the thread. But even there we don't have safe dosages because there aren't any. The blog entry about the customer that ate the flying ointment is not an exaggeration.

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I dont get how this got spun so far outta control but here's the thing - anybody that knows anything about dealing with baneful herbs would already know there is no 'safe' dosage for any two people.

 

And if they don't, well, let them blindly follow a Google recipe. Good riddance.

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I dont get how this got spun so far outta control

 

Do you know this seems to happen a lot to threads I start. :biggrin:

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Do you know this seems to happen a lot to threads I start. :biggrin:

 

I thought people would already know stuff like that lol it amazes me. Everyone is aware some people can smoke and drink the day away and be fine and others would freak out or vomit up their tummies and yet people think herbs are different? Oh, ok.

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At worst you die from using these plants and fungi, its a very deadly game of chance, even in small doses some of the toxins can build up in your system from repeated use, not to mention most of the stuff is quite irritating to your skin and mucous membranes. No one in their right mind would rub pepper spray all over their bodies so why rub irritating toxic herbs all over your body ?

 

I only use baneful herbs in magic to craft charms like poppets, wreathes and witch bottles but even then I always take proper precautions I wear clothing that covers my arms and legs. I put gloves on my hands and I protect my eyes, mouth and nose. I also make a type of flower remedy from them but I always use sealed clear glass bottles to collect the energies, rather than gathering the dew from the plants.

 

I hate to sound like an after school special on drugs but these herbs will lie to you, draw you into a false familiarity and make you feel invincible. The very essence of the baneful herb is intoxicating right down to the plant's spirit . Baneful herbs can be wonderful allies to the witch but only if proper respect is shared between witch and herb or fungi in some cases. If you want to get close to a baneful plant or plants I recommenced caring for them and raising them but most importantly sit down open your mind and listen to them, read everything you can on them and observe them in natural surroundings but for crying out loud don't abuse them.

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Guest Vala

I dont get how this got spun so far outta control but here's the thing - anybody that knows anything about dealing with baneful herbs would already know there is no 'safe' dosage for any two people.

 

And if they don't, well, let them blindly follow a Google recipe. Good riddance.

 

For myself, I do know a bit about them actually. My comment was meant to provoke thought about the different methods of promoting safe crossing.

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For myself, I do know a bit about them actually. My comment was meant to provoke thought about the different methods of promoting safe crossing.

 

Safe would be not posting ingredients and their amounts used, and safer yet would be not discussing this sort of thing at all. Then again, this is a witchcraft forum where we discuss various practices therein. QED, it's never wise to post ingredients or their amounts anywhere. Ever, probably.

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//begin rant

 

This thread has gotten 'way out of hand and is pissing me off.

 

I am a very experienced herbalist. I research them, both medicinally and magically, for a living. I use them, medicinally and magically. I grow them ... baneful and not. I've been doing this longer than many of the board members have been alive.

 

With any drug - synthetic or natural (herbs are drugs, make no mistake) - there is always a possibility of a bad reaction; bad being anywhere on the scale from a rash to a hangover to death. As has been pointed out, every plant has its own chemical composition and two growing immediately next to each other may not be exactly the same. Human physiology is different from one person to the next, with different reactions to things. [stacey, not even one drink? Poor kid!]

 

The above is why, after my surgery, I took the synthetic pain pill the doctor prescribed, rather than go "natural" with a narcotic herb from my garden or shop. While there was the possibility of a bad reaction with the pill, it was much less likely due to the standardization of chemical composition and dosage. I didn't want to gamble my life with an herbal experiment, trying to find the correct herb or combination and dosage for me.

 

There are stupid people in the world - a lot of them. You may be able to tell someone to use a condom for safe sex but are you going to be right there at the side of the bed with them, ensuring they inspect the condom for holes? I, for one, don't want to.

 

Recounting your experiences publicly is fine and nothing is stopping seekers from sharing recipes via PM. But, no recipes, no dosages mentioned in the public section. If I see any more arguing or whining, I'll delete the comments and lock the thread.

 

//end rant

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//begin rant

 

[stacey, not even one drink? Poor kid!]

 

There are stupid people in the world - a lot of them. You may be able to tell someone to use a condom for safe sex but are you going to be right there at the side of the bed with them, ensuring they inspect the condom for holes? I, for one, don't want to.

//end rant

 

Fab rant! Love it, and yep not even one drink, I am so hard done by lol.

 

There are stupid people in the world which is why I didn't post the recipe (not implying people here are stupid, but those who use search engines can be). The post from the Alchemist's Garden proves that.

 

By the way, the condom analogy? Gads, the image that brings up made me laugh my ass off. "Now honey, are you sure there are holes, let's have a look"

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I hate to sound like an after school special on drugs but these herbs will lie to you, draw you into a false familiarity and make you feel invincible. The very essence of the baneful herb is intoxicating right down to the plant's spirit . Baneful herbs can be wonderful allies to the witch but only if proper respect is shared between witch and herb or fungi in some cases. If you want to get close to a baneful plant or plants I recommenced caring for them and raising them but most importantly sit down open your mind and listen to them, read everything you can on them and observe them in natural surroundings but for crying out loud don't abuse them.

 

I love the fact that you brought up the spirit part! Many people forget that while working with herbs you're not only working with their physical bodies, but also their spirits. Excellent post! :clap:

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anybody that knows anything about dealing with baneful herbs would already know there is no 'safe' dosage for any two people.

 

 

I think this sums up why I have never bothered following any recipe at all in this area. From a practical viewpoint, the differences between individual herbs and individual people vary so much that it renders any formal recipe somewhat redundant. I really can't see the point in looking for lists of ingredients or specific dosages. They have no bearing on what any experience will be like for me personally.

 

Research, now research is different, research is absolutely crucial. Nothing is going anywhere near my mouth (or feet) without me having a good basic knowledge of what it can do to me and what effects it can produce. I do not have a confidently broad working knowledge of herbs, I have a few close favourites with whom I work and which I have researched to my satisfaction. My experience of working with herbs is to start from the bottom up, testing tiny little dosages until I start to find the levels that work right for me. And I want to build a relationship with each plant as an individual before I mix any of them together. I have a complete horror of throwing random ingredients into a mix.

 

I used to source most of my herbs but this year I have taken the plunge and made a significant time investment into researching and growing my own. I kind of feel it is all part of getting to know the plant. And I'm not sure if I have any business in using a plant that I haven't understood enough to be able to grow. (Though that would sadly mean all my salads would be basil free forever!)

 

Just my opinion, mind.

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I think this sums up why I have never bothered following any recipe at all in this area. From a practical viewpoint, the differences between individual herbs and individual people vary so much that it renders any formal recipe somewhat redundant. I really can't see the point in looking for lists of ingredients or specific dosages. They have no bearing on what any experience will be like for me personally.

 

Research, now research is different, research is absolutely crucial. Nothing is going anywhere near my mouth (or feet) without me having a good basic knowledge of what it can do to me and what effects it can produce. I do not have a confidently broad working knowledge of herbs, I have a few close favourites with whom I work and which I have researched to my satisfaction. My experience of working with herbs is to start from the bottom up, testing tiny little dosages until I start to find the levels that work right for me. And I want to build a relationship with each plant as an individual before I mix any of them together. I have a complete horror of throwing random ingredients into a mix.

 

I used to source most of my herbs but this year I have taken the plunge and made a significant time investment into researching and growing my own. I kind of feel it is all part of getting to know the plant. And I'm not sure if I have any business in using a plant that I haven't understood enough to be able to grow. (Though that would sadly mean all my salads would be basil free forever!)

 

Just my opinion, mind.

 

The highlighted sentences resonated with me. I agree with those points and don't think banefuls, and flying ointments especially, are anything to be messed around with for the newbie witch. Sadly, it seems that this is the most alluring topic for the budding herbal witch. I don't choose to use flying ointments because it is against our beliefs on magic and the craft, but also because I am highly sensitive to plant substances and for me a little will have almost double the effect of someone else, even for healing teas.

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