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Siberian Princess Tattoos Revealed


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#1 Archabyss

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:22 PM

http://siberiantimes...ar-old-tattoos/
Hopefully this link is ok.

Don't know if anyone else remembers this find in the permafrost but the scientists have released drawings of the tattos on the princess and the warriors found near by. It to my mind is an interesting piece as the designs are similar to drawings I have seen by witch artists of creatures and for me I think that they would be in part to show status but also the religionous beliefs and also seeing the 'date' of the people their outlook on magical belief.

Now I don't know much about this countrys beliefs but it is still an interesting piece.


#2 Aloe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

Those are amazing! I'm also intrigued by the consistency with 'modern' drawings by magical people I know. Very interesting...
"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#3 Aurelia

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:31 PM

That was a really interesting read, thanks for sharing it! I don't remember hearing about the "princess" being found back then but this has sparked something in me that I feel I need to do some more research on her and her people.

The tattoos were so well preserved and wonderful to see - the level of detail and skill is really great. It said the skin from her neck and face had gone before they found her, but it makes me wonder if anything had been tattooed on her neck as a sort of "bridge" between the two arms' designs. Not something we'll ever find an answer to though.

I'm always in two minds about archaeological digs like this. Bear with me as this is typing-as-I'm-thinking. I find archaeology and the discoveries fascinating (I actually wanted to be an Egyptologist when I was younger) and yes it's great to be able to piece together history and find out things that we otherwise wouldn't know. But, at the same time, I don't think it's right to remove the body from it's resting place and put it in a museum for all to see (although I admit to going to museums to see exhibits). It just seems...wrong the way they go about it. Like they think that because she's been dead so long then she won't mind being moved. Yet if someone wanted to dig up a modern cemetary to examine a body they have to get exhumation orders (which can be denied) - almost like putting more severity on digging up the recently deceased than the long dead. So my mind is there with this quote from the article: 'She was a beautiful young woman, whom they dug up, poured hot water and chemicals upon, and subjected to other experiments. They did this to a real person,' complained Erkinova to the Irish Times newspaper in in 2004. I'm not really there about the experiments, as I know science is about experimentation, but more the last sentence, about her being a real person and sometimes I think that gets forgotten in the name of science. I know that some spirits are alright with witches using their bones or teeth, and also that some people donate their bodies to science for experimentation...but the key difference being that permission is asked and/or payment given in exchange. So I guess that's what it comes down to for me - she wasn't asked if she would mind being moved, her permission and her beliefs on where her body would lie were pretty much ignored. Do you think after all this time, some 2500+ years, that she would mind that happening to her, or would she not even notice? I wonder if her beliefs of being buried with horses, etc would mean that now her spirit wouldn't be able to stay wherever it was before because of the disruption of her grave? I'd be interested on other input on this, as I said it's more typing-as-I'm-thinking here for me so more thinking and different perspectives might help me hone in on what I'm actually trying to put into words.

I found this quote interesting though: Drachevsky travelled to Kosh-Agach and told residents that the mummies would not be returned, saying they were serving important scientific purposes, and that he was 'simply uncomfortable hearing about angry spirits, as if we were living in the Middle Ages'. I wonder if he was uncomfortable because the profits from the exhibit would vanish if she wasn't on display? Or maybe just uncomfortable because he has some belief in spirits and his heritage and is trying to ignore it. It's always interesting how science trumps beliefs of long deceased, yet belief trumps science for newly deceased (ie: denying exhumation due to religious beliefs).

Thank you again for sharing the article, Archabyss.


#4 Noni Isha

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:53 PM

I found it really interesting how one person in the comments linked one of the tattoos to the "Miraculous Deer"/Csodaszarvas.

For some odd reason, things of this nature, and articles on bog bodies and such, really fascinate me.

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#5 LdyShalott

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:56 PM

Fascinating read.. thanks for sharing.. :grin_witch:

Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.  T.P.

In order to understand the living.. you have to commune with the dead..
You are a tiny little soul carrying around a corpse.-- Epictetus
All experience is an arch wherethrough gleams that untravelled world whose margin fades for ever and for ever when I move.

 


#6 Pikkusisko

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:59 AM

Thanks, this made for a really interesting read. The tattoos are breath taking.

The story reminds me a lot of a mummy in my mother's home town; They called her the 'Peruvian Princess'. She'd been effectively stolen, placed crouched in a bell jar and hidden in the backroom of a small museum. When the locals of the area where she'd been taken found out her location she got put in the back room and never returned. Even with the archaeologists poor understanding of 'ancestors' it's pretty gracious of them to let her return to the area. All too commonly the mummies never go home.

'There's rules to this stuff. Wishing an event to be changes elements before and after it. Memories will be destroyed, babies will not be born, potential worlds could be evaporated by your wish.' - Prismo


#7 Autumn Moon

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:51 AM

Fascinating, thanks for the link.

I'm kind of of two minds on this. One, is that it is really the present day people who are objecting. Would the 'Princess' have objected? Who knows. I guess one would have to research the beliefs on such that would have existed at the time. Would it be better to have her body ravaged by animals carrying off bones as the frost melted, or have it preserved in the way they are doing it? Yet, I do have some trouble with a buried body being disturbed. In this case, if animals would have destroyed the body, I think it was the way to go.


#8 Stacey

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:33 AM

This is really fascinating, the tattoos are remarkable. To find something so old in such remarkable condition is amazing. As to the digging up of the remains...truthfully it is just the arrogance of our species to think we can do what we want when we want so I'm not surprised. Last I checked desecration of human remains was an offense in any country but wrap science around it and you get away with it. I say good on the people for not letting any more excavations take place - if (or more likely when) global warming becomes an issue for the "thousands of burial mounds" then perhaps another compromise can be reached. Especially one where she is not seen as "intellectual property", I mean she's a person not an artifact. Reading what she was buried with, it appears she was in it for the long haul so it definitely is disrespectful to haul her up and use her for science.

I think on the whole, unless you are a spiritually motivated person, there is probably a lack of respect for situations such as these, and as much as scientists give to the world, I tend to believe they are distinctly disconnected from the part of their brain that may think digging up someone's grave and using them for science is wrong. Scientists are passionate about their work and sometimes in their zeal they tend to justify just about anything. Different tangent: they use animals for testing, refusing to face the fact that these animals are under immense pain and suffering, it's for science and progress so therefore their pain is irrelevant - personally I think instead of testing on animals, test on death row inmates - at least in their last days they can contribute something to society instead of taking it away. But we wouldn't do that because of human rights and all that so why do it to some one's body?

I can't deny that seeing this is phenomenally interesting and does begin to flesh our more of our human history but I do believe there needs to be some sort of respect or reverence given to the dead before we use them for science and profit.

"The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by an invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing." Severus Snape - HP and the Order of the Phoenix

#9 Archabyss

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:55 AM

I agree there are a lot of problems with looking at bodies from graves but one thing in my mind is that we don't know about their beliefs or religion, for all we know they could have buried their dead in this way out of respect and tradition but after that it is the journey of the soul that is important.

What we do know is the permafrost is melting, animals will find bodies and eat them because meat on the ground is easier than hunting.


#10 Aurelian

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:32 PM

Different tangent: they use animals for testing, refusing to face the fact that these animals are under immense pain and suffering, it's for science and progress so therefore their pain is irrelevant - personally I think instead of testing on animals, test on death row inmates - at least in their last days they can contribute something to society instead of taking it away. But we wouldn't do that because of human rights and all that so why do it to some one's body?

I can't deny that seeing this is phenomenally interesting and does begin to flesh our more of our human history but I do believe there needs to be some sort of respect or reverence given to the dead before we use them for science and profit.


I find your thought process very interesting here, Stacey.
I'm not going to enter any sort of moral debate, but Arch is right, so much of our ancestral history and culture has been lost. People are turning up bog mummies harvesting peat, should we lose the opportunities that present themselves? I do of course believe there should be some reverence paid, but if we didn't practice archaeology we'd know bugger all about human history. A lot of us even use human bones and skulls in our practices, it's not like witches believe the soul stays with the body and we have to preserve it so we can rise again.

"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#11 Aloe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

I find your thought process very interesting here, Stacey.
I'm not going to enter any sort of moral debate, but Arch is right, so much of our ancestral history and culture has been lost. People are turning up bog mummies harvesting peat, should we lose the opportunities that present themselves? I do of course believe there should be some reverence paid, but if we didn't practice archaeology we'd know bugger all about human history. A lot of us even use human bones and skulls in our practices, it's not like witches believe the soul stays with the body and we have to preserve it so we can rise again.


Voted that up, completely agree.

"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#12 Guest_atropa_*

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:36 AM

I find your thought process very interesting here, Stacey.
I'm not going to enter any sort of moral debate, but Arch is right, so much of our ancestral history and culture has been lost. People are turning up bog mummies harvesting peat, should we lose the opportunities that present themselves? I do of course believe there should be some reverence paid, but if we didn't practice archaeology we'd know bugger all about human history. A lot of us even use human bones and skulls in our practices, it's not like witches believe the soul stays with the body and we have to preserve it so we can rise again.



I agree with your thoughts Aurelian, well said


#13 Guest_atropa_*

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:39 AM

http://siberiantimes...ar-old-tattoos/
Hopefully this link is ok.

Don't know if anyone else remembers this find in the permafrost but the scientists have released drawings of the tattos on the princess and the warriors found near by. It to my mind is an interesting piece as the designs are similar to drawings I have seen by witch artists of creatures and for me I think that they would be in part to show status but also the religionous beliefs and also seeing the 'date' of the people their outlook on magical belief.

Now I don't know much about this countrys beliefs but it is still an interesting piece.



Thank you for the link Archabyss, I found it interesting, clan markings are of use to me and mine. They can be very beautiful and of course they cause thoughts in this realm and in others.

Edited by atropa, 17 August 2012 - 08:40 AM.


#14 Apryl

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:29 AM

I find your thought process very interesting here, Stacey.
I'm not going to enter any sort of moral debate, but Arch is right, so much of our ancestral history and culture has been lost. People are turning up bog mummies harvesting peat, should we lose the opportunities that present themselves? I do of course believe there should be some reverence paid, but if we didn't practice archaeology we'd know bugger all about human history. A lot of us even use human bones and skulls in our practices, it's not like witches believe the soul stays with the body and we have to preserve it so we can rise again.

Couldn't have said it better, thanks. +1 :cheers: