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Saveock Water of Cornwall, England


The Exile

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Saveock Water in Cornwall

 

 

A while back Sara (Sarasuperid) posted somewhere in the forum about the archeological finds at the site of Saveock Water which contains some finds that supports the theory that witches lived there.

 

Sara also mentioned to me that the website doesn't mention anything about the people of the past that lived in the area.

 

 

 

In this post I will start with the maps. Other than knowing where Cornwall is, I didn't know the location so had to hit the maps.

 

 

 

Saveock Water in the old days was often spelled Seveock Water. It is located in the civil parish of Kenwyn of Cornwall.

 

It is to the west of the main town, Truro.

 

When you go down to the smaller town or village level, Saveock is about a mile east of CHACEWATER and about less than a mile west of GREEN BOTTOM.

 

 

 

 

 

The first map shows the general area of where Saveock Water is in relationship to Cornwall. This map is from the website http://www.fromoldbooks.org

 

 

 

Cornwall 1783

 

Saveock-Waters-1783.jpg

 

from the book "The Antiquities of England and Wales" by Francis Grose, 1783.

 

I added the asterisk and "Saveock Water" notation.

 

 

 

 

 

The second, a set of two maps from the website http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

 

This shows that the name of Seveock and Saveock spread out at several locations

 

 

 

Modern day map of Saveock/Seveock

 

Saveock-Part-1.jpg

 

 

 

Saveock-Part-2.jpg

 

 

 

 

There are several locations that has Seveock or Saveock:

 

Seveock Moor

 

Seveock Farm (2 locations)

 

Saveock Farm (2 locations)

 

Saveock

 

Saveock Mill

 

Saveock Manor

 

Saveock Manor Cottage

 

 

 

And it is still not clear at the moment where in the map is exactly the Saveock Water sites. Perhaps later we will.

 

 

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I scrolled down farther on the list of threads on History Of Witchcraft and found the thread that was started by Sara (sarasuperid).

 

In it is has the links to the Saveock website.

 

 

Cornish Archeological Witch Site

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/8878-cornish-archeological-witch-site/

 

 

 

Sorry I didn't find it when I did a search for "saveock"

 

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How interesting Exile, do you suppose the difference in the spelling of these two places, could be just in the pronounciation of it. Most times back in those ancient days as in your 1st Map, rural folk didn't have the tools of reading let alone writing, and the name of the location was put down phonenically ? Look at me I can't spell for shit, either.. lol !

 

Regards,

Gypsy

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How interesting Exile, do you suppose the difference in the spelling of these two places, could be just in the pronounciation of it. Most times back in those ancient days as in your 1st Map, rural folk didn't have the tools of reading let alone writing, and the name of the location was put down phonenically ? Look at me I can't spell for shit, either.. lol !

 

Regards,

Gypsy

 

 

It could be Gypsy, looking at the 1841 census all the locations were spelled SEVEOCK, so I think the Saveock spelling is more modern. As with the ancient maps they were all mostly put down phonetically after the map makers went through the area collecting the names of the places and they wrote as they thought how it would be spelled.

 

This applies to how surnames were spelled. Depending on how the minister or court person thought it was spelled since most people back then didn't write or read.

 

Reminds me of the story of the almost deaf parishioner and the almost blind minister. The minister baptized a child and now he is wrtiting the names of the party involved. The minister badly needed a new pair glasses as everything is starting to be blurry. The minister didn't recognize the long time parishioner and asked "What is your name?". The parishioner who is losing his hearing did hear the question but couldn't believe that he wouldn't know his name so he thought he said something else so he said "Ehhh? Whazzatt?" And the minister wrote in the register "Edd Whazatt".

 

Some names are interesting. How would someone get a name as "Halfpenny" -- was he an abandoned child found clutching a English Half Penny in his hand ? And then his last name became Halfpenny.

 

Sorry off topic.

 

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Locating the area of Saveock Mill in relationship of the excavation sites of Saveock Water.

 

 

When reading the report from Saveock Water Archaeology website for

 

Area C -- Orange Clay platform

 

 

"….To the south of this sump cut, the orange clay mound gently slopes down until it is cut into by a rubbish pit from the 18th century mill house…"

 

 

 

 

 

 

When reading the report from Saveock Water Archaeology website for

 

Area K Old Mill?

 

 

"This is small trench no more than 2m by 4m. In the north east corner is a dark feature that might be a pit surrounded by a platform of dense green clay very much the same as in the middle of the Mesolithic structure.

 

Surrounding this is a flat stony layer similar to the yellow stony deposit in A/2. On the west side of this trench is the remains of the mill house and its associated rubble pile.

 

This year we plan to excavate the mill house and show all the stages of an excavation from archive records to geophysics to excavation.

 

Taking you though all the stages, right up to finds processing and data base recording.

 

We know from the archives that the mill house was there in 1840’s but had gone completely 1908."

 

 

 

 

 

 

So when you combine the two report's mentioning of the location of the ruins of the Mill House, I come up with the probable location of the ruined Saveock Mill in relationship to the excavation sites.

 

 

 

 

The site map came from the Saveock Water Archaeology website and I added the probable location of the mill on the map.

 

 

 

Saveock-Site-Map-061212.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However in the report K, it is mentioned that they plan to dig the old mill site this year so perhaps she will update the excavation map with the exact location of the Saveock Mill ruins.

 

 

 

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Seveock Mill in 1841

 

 

Located the miller in the 1841 census of Seveock Water.

 

 

 

His name was David Rook who was born ca. 1771 in Cornwall. He was the miller and his family were living at the Mill in Seveock Water.

 

This would be the ruins that is next to the Saveock Water Archaeology site.

 

 

 

1841 census of Seveock Water, Kenwyn parish, Cornwall

Name / Age (to the nearest 5 year) / Sex / occupation / Born in the county (of Cornwall)?

 

do (Seveock Water)

 

David Rook………… 70 M…… Millar………………. y

Ann Rook…………… 70 F………………………………. y

Joseph Head……….. 20 M…. Miner Copper……. y

John Rook………….. 40 M….. Miller………… [blank]

Phillippa Rook……. 40 F……………………………… y

Catharine… do….… 15 F………………………………. y

 

 

 

 

Rook-David-Miller-Seveock-Water-1841-061212-01.jpg

 

 

Rook-David-Miller-Seveock-Water-1841-061212-02.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Here is a quote from the Archaeology journal article: "It is not clear whether the pits were the work of a single family or a countrywide guild of witches. One lead came from a conversation between a member of Wood's excavation team and some locals in a pub. They recalled that there was a family, the Burnetts, reputed to be witches, that lived near Wood's house. Two sisters resided there until the 1980s, so it is possible the dog pit could have been their work. Today a relative of the Burnett sisters is still there, but Wood--for whatever reason--hasn't yet plucked up the courage to visit."

So it looks like we want the Burnetts that live near the site.

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Oh here we go getting a good start on this! I am so thrilled Bill! I wonder if getting the address narrowed down helps us narrow down which Burnetts we are looking for.

 

 

 

That one will take more digging. The list of Burnett addresses that I sent to you in the private messenger is still is where the research on the Burnett front is at this point.

 

Main problem is that in the British Phone Books (B.P.Bs.) seems like I only found Burnetts in the 1980's to 1984 (the cut off date of the collection at Ancestry is so far 1984). I need to find out why no Burnetts in the area before 1984 in the B. P. Bs. I believe there should be some listed. And if found it would give us the names of Burnett in the area from the 1930's to 1970's.

 

Sometimes the scanning program that readed the digital images pick up words differently like I found in the newspapers Pettingale readed as Fettingale. And in the B.P.Bs., I later found out that Robert and Monica English were actually listed in the phone books at Gayton, Norfolk from 1954 to 1970 not as I thought 1954 to 1964 before because I rechecked the indexes with different spellings etc.

 

 

Then using the Births index and Marriages index of England & Wales, all the Burnett of the area is listed under the registration district of Truro.

 

To see how wide of an area

 

Click here: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/Maps/map_trur.html

 

 

You can see the parish of Kenwyn is located near the middle of the area.

So just from the index a birth in Truro r.d. could be from any of the places in that district. To get the exact location, you would have to order the birth or marriage certificate and at 9.25 British Pounds each that would be approximately 15.00 US Dollars each :thatsit: not economical.

 

 

So I will try to cross reference some other references to get an idea of the Burnetts in the area of the 1910's to 1980's.

 

 

I will soon post the 1901 and 1911 census of the Burnett family that was listed at Green Bottom which was less than a mile from Saveock Water.

 

 

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Here is a quote from the Archaeology journal article: "It is not clear whether the pits were the work of a single family or a countrywide guild of witches. One lead came from a conversation between a member of Wood's excavation team and some locals in a pub. They recalled that there was a family, the Burnetts, reputed to be witches, that lived near Wood's house. Two sisters resided there until the 1980s, so it is possible the dog pit could have been their work. Today a relative of the Burnett sisters is still there, but Wood--for whatever reason--hasn't yet plucked up the courage to visit."

 

So it looks like we want the Burnetts that live near the site.

 

 

Need to add that there is the possibility that some of the Burnetts choosen to have their phone number not listed.

 

The list of Burnett addresses that I sent to you are from the 2012 Electoral Poll list of UK. The most current. But I think I did also heard that you can choose to be private in that list as well.

 

Will need to dig deeper.

 

 

 

 

 

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"However, there has since the reported came been a new development on the Witch front. A student of mine from Exeter University John Gates has spent the last five weeks living in a tent just outside the village of Blackwater. When he told the people in the local pub The Red Lion about our pits they all seemed to know that there had been witches living in the area of the pits. They said there was a man that was thought to be a witch and that he lived in a cottage the other side of the railway line next to our land. He died in 1945 though so he could not have put the dog pit in as it is clearly dated since the atom bomb testing. He left his cottage to his two nieces and the general consensus in the pub was that they were certainly Witches. There used to be a footbridge over the railway line when the sisters lived there which gave them easy access to our land, which was demolished in the 1960’s. That is the reason I knew nothing about these sisters as there is no way across the railway track to their cottage now and in the country if you live on a farm and do not share a track with people you rarely get to meet them. The sister’s nephew inherited the cottage around 1985 and he lives there today. I told the reporter what I had found out but I really have no idea what he is going to print about it all anymore. We will just have to wait and see. This week the reporter from De Spiegel is doing an article about it on the magazines website and we have a photographer and reporter form the American Institute magazine coming on Sunday to look at the site."

From the dig diary--2008.

Bill, I am pm'ing you the map I made of all the Burnett's you found, the dig site, and the pub. Maybe it will help us out.

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Thanks Sara that interactive google map is very useful. You can even zoom in until you can actually see two areas nearby the school where the land is stripped (the archeological sites).

 

And when looking at the nearby areas it doesn't look like that many people lived in the area which explains why I came up with only a few names.

 

I recently did some more jiggling around the search indexes with the British Phone Books. I found a way to do a search without names but with just the location "Saveock" and then "Seveock" and for the whole 1940 to 1984 period there were only to less than a dozen names in the phone books connected with those place names. But no Burnetts.

 

I did collected the names found associated with the places.

 

 

Sara that report you found in the 2008 diary is an important one. It gives the family structure. It went from one person to two of his nieces (which suggest that he didn't have children and perhaps not married) and then from one of the sister's nephew. I bet that not all of their last names were Burnett.

 

Finding that year of death of 1945 is important. I can do a search in the index for deaths in the area and cross reference it with some of the names already in hand.

 

 

 

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Thanks Sara that interactive google map is very useful. You can even zoom in until you can actually see two areas nearby the school where the land is stripped (the archeological sites).

 

And when looking at the nearby areas it doesn't look like that many people lived in the area which explains why I came up with only a few names.

 

I recently did some more jiggling around the search indexes with the British Phone Books. I found a way to do a search without names but with just the location "Saveock" and then "Seveock" and for the whole 1940 to 1984 period there were only to less than a dozen names in the phone books connected with those place names. But no Burnetts.

 

I did collected the names found associated with the places.

 

 

Sara that report you found in the 2008 diary is an important one. It gives the family structure. It went from one person to two of his nieces (which suggest that he didn't have children and perhaps not married) and then from one of the sister's nephew. I bet that not all of their last names were Burnett.

 

Finding that year of death of 1945 is important. I can do a search in the index for deaths in the area and cross reference it with some of the names already in hand.

 

 

 

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You can also zoom in with that map and see the railroad tracks she is talking about, there are a number of buildings across the tracks, but still less than a dozen.

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Seveock 1935

 

 

I finally found a document that shows the Burnett were living in Seveock, Cornwall.

 

This is a probate index listing for John Thomas Burnett who died on January 11, 1935.

 

 

 

BURNETT John Thomas of Seveock Kenwyn Cornwall died 11 January 1935 Probate Bodmin 20 March to Harold Burnett labourer.

 

Effects £702 12s. 4d.

 

 

Burnett-John-Thomas-1935-Probate-Index-0614-2012.jpg

 

 

 

This is the same John T. Burnett that I find the family living in Greenbottom, Cornwall (less than a mile away from Seveock) in the 1901 and 1911 census. So it was after 1911 they moved to Seveock.

 

 

 

Incidently this John T. Burnett had a brother, Richard Burnett, that died in 1943 in a nearby area.

 

 

 

Both of them are sons of a Richard Burnett senior who was a Gamekeeper in profession.

 

 

 

John Thomas Burnett was a carpenter and joiner. Richard Jr. was a fisherman (and I think a farmer?)

 

 

 

So now I got to collect information on the children and grandchildren of John Thomas Burnett to see who were the later member of the family that lived in the area.

 

 

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Seveock 1935

 

 

I finally found a document that shows the Burnett were living in Seveock, Cornwall.

 

This is a probate index listing for John Thomas Burnett who died on January 11, 1935.

 

 

 

BURNETT John Thomas of Seveock Kenwyn Cornwall died 11 January 1935 Probate Bodmin 20 March to Harold Burnett labourer.

 

Effects £702 12s. 4d.

 

 

Burnett-John-Thomas-1935-Probate-Index-0614-2012.jpg

 

 

 

This is the same John T. Burnett that I find the family living in Greenbottom, Cornwall (less than a mile away from Seveock) in the 1901 and 1911 census. So it was after 1911 they moved to Seveock.

 

 

 

Incidently this John T. Burnett had a brother, Richard Burnett, that died in 1943 in a nearby area.

 

 

 

Both of them are sons of a Richard Burnett senior who was a Gamekeeper in profession.

 

 

 

John Thomas Burnett was a carpenter and joiner. Richard Jr. was a fisherman (and I think a farmer?)

 

 

 

So now I got to collect information on the children and grandchildren of John Thomas Burnett to see who were the later member of the family that lived in the area.

 

 

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Yay!

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Harold Burnett and the sisters

 

Digging for more information on the later generations of the Burnett family that lived in Seveock area of Cornwall turns out to be more difficult than I thought it would. Finding the marriages of the children is difficult. Found one son of John Thomas Burnett died in his twenties and possibly a daughter that did too.

 

 

But I decided to check google for more clues and one important clue came up on a German Website "Spiegel Online Science" which is in German language. This page was mentioning about the Saveock Water Archeological site.

 

 

And in it, it mentioned Harold Burnett and then it mentioned about the nieces the sisters.

 

 

 

In my research Harold Burnett was a grandson of John Thomas Burnett and I have him living with John T. Burnett in the 1901 and 1911 censuses of Green Bottom (less than a mile from Saveock).

 

The odd thing is the website does mentioned that he died in 1945 but I didn't find any deaths of his except for a couple one I think in the 1980's Redruth area of Cornwall. Also it mentioned that Harold Burnett never married. But there is one or marriages of a Harold Burnett in the area but need to check on them. It could be that he was a widower for a long time.

 

The article went on to say that the sisters were living in primative conditions. Which probably mean they lived off the land.

 

Which in turn would explain why no telephone records of them. They probably didn't have one.

 

 

Translated into English: Spielgel Online Science

 

 

I believe that Jacqui Wood left the name Harold Burnett off the website because she probably fear them a little. But Germany is far away so they felt okay mentioning his name.

 

 

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Harold Burnett and the sisters

 

Digging for more information on the later generations of the Burnett family that lived in Seveock area of Cornwall turns out to be more difficult than I thought it would. Finding the marriages of the children is difficult. Found one son of John Thomas Burnett died in his twenties and possibly a daughter that did too.

 

 

But I decided to check google for more clues and one important clue came up on a German Website "Spiegel Online Science" which is in German language. This page was mentioning about the Saveock Water Archeological site.

 

 

And in it, it mentioned Harold Burnett and then it mentioned about the nieces the sisters.

 

 

 

In my research Harold Burnett was a grandson of John Thomas Burnett and I have him living with John T. Burnett in the 1901 and 1911 censuses of Green Bottom (less than a mile from Saveock).

 

The odd thing is the website does mentioned that he died in 1945 but I didn't find any deaths of his except for a couple one I think in the 1980's Redruth area of Cornwall. Also it mentioned that Harold Burnett never married. But there is one or marriages of a Harold Burnett in the area but need to check on them. It could be that he was a widower for a long time.

 

The article went on to say that the sisters were living in primative conditions. Which probably mean they lived off the land.

 

Which in turn would explain why no telephone records of them. They probably didn't have one.

 

 

Translated into English: Spielgel Online Science

 

 

I believe that Jacqui Wood left the name Harold Burnett off the website because she probably fear them a little. But Germany is far away so they felt okay mentioning his name.

 

 

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Maybe she was sheepish about digging into their business. Well perhaps we should respect their privacy too and if we get to the living relatives names maybe we should handle it by pm and see if my Cornish contact can write or interview them privately to see if they want to be involved. Its a rather niche interest I would think.

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I am loving all of this, but I am not a very good detective of ancestry the way Bill is.

I do think once living relatives become involved private message would be best due to privacy issues, etc.

But my noseyness about this subject is super inticed and wanting to be whetted.

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Yes I agree with Sarasuperid and Ravenflyer concerning the privacy issue of the living generation. Once I locate them I will forward the info to Sara in PM. Just like I did earlier when I got the addresses of all the Burnett living in the area from the 2012 Electoral rolls.

 

Like in the Monica English history, I left out the names and information on the son of Monica and the son and daughter of Robert English even that I know more about them and have the address of where they live now.

 

 

Anyway concerning Harold Burnett "dying" in 1945. Still didn't find any death of him for that year. There is a Harold Burnett that died in his 80's in the Redruth area of Cornwall in the 1980's - 1990's (off my head, got to go back to copy the info).

 

What made me think that one is relevant is because there was also a granddaughter, May Burnett born ca. 1902, that was living with John Thomas Burnett in the 1911 census (don't know yet if May Burnett was a sister of Harold Burnett or a cousin).

 

There was a May Burnett that also died in the Redruth area in 1950's of the correct age that would fit being born in 1902.

 

It could be that Harold Burnett and May Burnett left the place near Seveock to his nieces when he moved to Redruth perhaps in 1945 (rather than dying).

 

 

Got to get back sorting out this jumbled puzzle.

 

 

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"The campaign has grounded to a slow pace getting bog down in the mud"

 

I'm still here, I haven't abandon the ship on the research on the Burnett family.

 

 

It is just all the easier to find information has dried up and now got to purchase a copy of a probate document and a couple of certificates to move forward.

 

 

I have progress and still copying information on the Burnett family back to the early 1800's when they were living in St. Just in Roseland on the southern edge of Cornwall that is by the sea.

 

Cornwall is like a two prong fork on the southern part jutting out into the sea. One is the more heard of "Land's End" and the other one is where St. Just is.

 

 

While still writing up the earlier Burnetts. The 20th century Burnetts are harder to solve.

 

Despite checking the marriage indexes and failing to find them in the 1911 census (I have a feeling that maybe Ancestry.com is not finish indexing that censuses - will check on that), the three daughters of John Thomas Burnett are not easy to find where they went to. One may have died in the 1920's.

 

So I ordered a copy of John Thomas Burnett's Probate record of 1935. Hopefully it may give the married names of the daughters and where they may be living and where Harold was living in at the time.

 

The websites on the Archaeology dig mentioned Harold Burnett as being childless and perhaps unmarried and dying in 1945.

 

According to the birth index Harold Burnett birth registration occurred in Oct-Nov-Dec 1898 in Truro registration district. The 1901 and 1911 censuses says Harold was born in Feock.

 

Feock is in Truro registration district.

 

There is in the death index a Harold Burnett that died in 1980 at the age of 81 in the Kerrier registration district of Cornwall. It is in southern Cornwall where Land's End's would be included.

 

The death index gives that man's birth in September 25, 1898. Almost match the birth index entry of Oct-Nov-Dec 1898. Keep in mind that birth index entry would be what quarter the birth WAS REGISTERED. So being born in Sept 25 it is most likely that that his birth wasn't registered until several days later in the beginning of the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter.

 

So I ordered a copy of the death certificate. In it would say where he was born and if it says Feock (or Kenwyn parish) we got the right person.

 

 

Also I noticed a HILDA BURNETT that died in 1991 in Camborne-redruth registration district at the age of 92.

 

From the Marriage indexes:

 

There is a Harold Burnett and Hilda Northey that were married in the Apr-May-Jun quarter of 1930 in the Truro registration district (which includes Seveock ), I believe this is our Harold Burnett. I seen Hilda Northey living with her parents in the 1901 and 1911 censuses in Chasewater (about a mile away from Seveock)

 

So I also ordered a copy of this marriage certificate. On the certificate they always have the father's name of both party. It may be left blank if Harold was from one of John Thomas Burnett's daughters and he doesn't know his father's name. It may list the father as Richard Stuart Darwin Burnett, the only son of John Thomas Burnett who died early in 1908.

 

Harold Burnett is listed as a grandson in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, he may be born out of wedlock. I may get his birth certificate later.

 

 

So this will prove that Harold Burnett didn't die in 1945, more likely LEFT Seveock in 1945.

 

And that he had a wife. Once these are proven then I can look to see if Harold and Hilda Burnett have any Wills.

 

Also if it is proven that he was married, then it is possible that the nieces (the sisters) that were living in Saveock could also have been from the wife's side of the family (from the Northey family).

 

It may take 2 to 4 weeks to get the certificates, and the Probate Will may take a little longer.

 

 

 

 

Sorry about the long ramblings, but it shows how you have to make strategies when doing roots research to make gains.

 

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