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#1 seacow

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:16 PM

Tried to see if there was a topic on this already, but I couldn't find one.. Anyways, I've been wondering what other people think about the use of drugs, any drug, and how it affects your magical performance. Smoking certain herbs, making teas out of other ones, have for a long time been a means of aiding in spirit quests, astral projection etc. I'm more so wondering about the use of naturally occuring, non processed drugs like peyote, salvia divinorum, different fungi, marijuana.. My interest mainly comes from the fact that the shamans and witches in the North of Finland (my grandmother mixed these traditions with her romani craft) used to make a brew out of amanita muscaria to help them travel the astral plane. I have never myself tried any of these drugs, part from weed. For me the effects of that particular drug vary, sometimes I just giggle in a corner, sometimes I do however feel that it strenghtens my mental ability, and especially my empathy.

My own main fear with mixing magic and drugs would be that I would do something I normally would never even think of doing.

Discuss!

ps. If this topic is prohibited, I'm sorry, and do feel free to delete it, I won't take umbrage. Also, if there IS a topic on this and I missed it, I would be glad if I would be directed to it.

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#2 Guest_Rev. Gregori_*

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:45 PM

well, Mama gives us the means to work the magik...that would mean using plants or fungi.

the only dilemma i would see would be overcoming the programming that using anything that can alter our perceptions is bad, hence the loaded word use of "drug".

i think allowing plants to participate in our workings, understanding them, can only help and not hinder. as long as you don't abuse the lifeform/essence it will not abuse you (ie. make you do things you normally wouldn't do)......although perhaps that is what's needed, to do what you normally wouldn't.


Witches and Magikians and Shamans and Healers etc. have asked plants for help in "seeing" what needs to be seen since paleo times. Our bodies have the natural receptors for the chemical compounds because we evolved with them...well, they are like our older brothers and sisters...you get the idea.

i have a long and sordid history of using shrooms and other "hallucinogens" and have only used them in sacredness. ....they really can open the doors of perception.

*now i wanna listen to the doors*





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#3 Jevne

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:19 AM

You are right. There is a thread somewheres about, but given the nature of the topic, it is likely in the private section. For a variety of reasons, including the fact that I am married to a police officer, I elect to not use any type of 'drug' in my practice. Others will have different interpretations, of course, based on their personal experiences and cultural expectations.

J

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#4 Sylvan

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:28 AM

As a nursing mother, I am as sober as a Baptist funeral, however, I do not have or see a problem with anyone using the kind of herbs that are considered "drugs" in their craft. The full spectrum of nature is available for us to work with.

I do frown on relying on them as a mainstay of one's practice. You ought to be able to reach certain witchy "states" without enhancement. If you can't feel magical without drugs, then you're not magical. I also imagine they would be more useful for thinking and feeling about one's craft (the processing and pondering) than the actual doing, but I am no expert.

Like the use of any herb or tool, this is a private and personal decision for the witch. I doubt many folks will divulge more than that on a public forum
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#5 The Old Crone

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:38 AM

As a nursing mother, I am as sober as a Baptist funeral, however, I do not have or see a problem with anyone using the kind of herbs that are considered "drugs" in their craft. The full spectrum of nature is available for us to work with.

I do frown on relying on them as a mainstay of one's practice. You ought to be able to reach certain witchy "states" without enhancement. If you can't feel magical without drugs, then you're not magical. I also imagine they would be more useful for thinking and feeling about one's craft (the processing and pondering) than the actual doing, but I am no expert.

Like the use of any herb or tool, this is a private and personal decision for the witch. I doubt many folks will divulge more than that on a public forum
.


Fully agree! Like using Betty Crocker(cake mix) and saying you made it yourself! You did, but not really.

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#6 aurora

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:32 PM

ROTFLMAO, bettys cake mix, that's so hilarious, that's bloody brilliant.
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#7 Michele

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:20 PM

My understanding is there are keys to going out of body. One of the keys can be an altered state brought on by plants/drugs. Pain, or intense fear/emotion can also be a key which would be why some people in car wrecks or extreme physical conditions (like a heart attack) suddenly pop out of body. It is also my understanding that this leaving the body (hedge crossing) is different than accessing the hedge (sitting within it) but not crossing over it. I have crossed once, and it was brought on by another entity/being entering into me. I do not think it is somethign I would purposefully do of my own accord as it is not a necessity of my practice and can be extremely dangerous; therefore it isn't something I peronally would attempt again without very good need and reason. I'm more of a rider than a crosser, lol.
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#8 seacow

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

well, Mama gives us the means to work the magik...that would mean using plants or fungi.

the only dilemma i would see would be overcoming the programming that using anything that can alter our perceptions is bad, hence the loaded word use of "drug".

i think allowing plants to participate in our workings, understanding them, can only help and not hinder. as long as you don't abuse the lifeform/essence it will not abuse you (ie. make you do things you normally wouldn't do)......although perhaps that is what's needed, to do what you normally wouldn't.

Witches and Magikians and Shamans and Healers etc. have asked plants for help in "seeing" what needs to be seen since paleo times. Our bodies have the natural receptors for the chemical compounds because we evolved with them...well, they are like our older brothers and sisters...you get the idea.

i have a long and sordid history of using shrooms and other "hallucinogens" and have only used them in sacredness. ....they really can open the doors of perception.

*now i wanna listen to the doors*


I'm more so afraid of some external factors affecting me If I would try some drugs, people and such. And also, since everyones brain works in a different way there are a number of things that might occur in someone else but not in you. But I have been interested in the use of mushrooms especially, just never had the guts to try.


You are right. There is a thread somewheres about, but given the nature of the topic, it is likely in the private section. For a variety of reasons, including the fact that I am married to a police officer, I elect to not use any type of 'drug' in my practice. Others will have different interpretations, of course, based on their personal experiences and cultural expectations.

J


Figured there might be one in the private section, have to go through that if/when I'm invited to see it! I thought about starting this topic pretty long and hard, since this particular part of the forum is public and literally anyone can view it, and some of us do have our faces on our profiles and so on.

As a nursing mother, I am as sober as a Baptist funeral, however, I do not have or see a problem with anyone using the kind of herbs that are considered "drugs" in their craft. The full spectrum of nature is available for us to work with.

I do frown on relying on them as a mainstay of one's practice. You ought to be able to reach certain witchy "states" without enhancement. If you can't feel magical without drugs, then you're not magical. I also imagine they would be more useful for thinking and feeling about one's craft (the processing and pondering) than the actual doing, but I am no expert.

Like the use of any herb or tool, this is a private and personal decision for the witch. I doubt many folks will divulge more than that on a public forum
.


Fully agree! Like using Betty Crocker(cake mix) and saying you made it yourself! You did, but not really.


Sylvan you're absolutely right! I kind of have a fear (not a big one but it's there) that I might start using certain herbs and states of mind as a crutch too much, and "forget" how to tap into my own magic without them.

My understanding is there are keys to going out of body. One of the keys can be an altered state brought on by plants/drugs. Pain, or intense fear/emotion can also be a key which would be why some people in car wrecks or extreme physical conditions (like a heart attack) suddenly pop out of body. It is also my understanding that this leaving the body (hedge crossing) is different than accessing the hedge (sitting within it) but not crossing over it. I have crossed once, and it was brought on by another entity/being entering into me. I do not think it is somethign I would purposefully do of my own accord as it is not a necessity of my practice and can be extremely dangerous; therefore it isn't something I peronally would attempt again without very good need and reason. I'm more of a rider than a crosser, lol.


Like the "key" analogy, never thought about it like that even though now that you said it it seems pretty obvious. I think it's going to help me, opening a door and stepping into something/somewhere else.

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#9 Betula

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:18 PM

I don't have a problem per se with people using "drugs" in their craft, the only thing I might add, is that traditional use of hallucinogenic plants etc is within the framwork of ritual. I know people who have done work with shamans in South America and the preparation, fasting, eating special foods etc, is quite extensive, then they are also guided by the "expert" present all the time and the experience on site lasts at least a week. How people in the industrial part of the world today tend to use hallucinogenics as a fast path to spiritual experiences I'm more doubtful about. We certainly have a drug culture today but not a sacred drug culture. Did your grand mother teach you how to prepare and use the mushrooms she used? I would hope so, that way there would be transmission and you would know a safe way to use it. Because I've also met people who never ever snapped out of what they took. I think that's rarely the case in a ritualistic setting because your guide would not let you go through with it if he/she didn't think you were ready. However downing some mushrooms, peyote, mescalin or LSD (ok it's chemical not natural) on your own might turn out to be a never ending nightmare, in my opinion. The plants have a consciousness I believe and maybe they even know why you're truly using them, and if they feel it's for the wrong reasons they can take vengence and it's not pretty.
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#10 Freki

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:09 PM

I don't have a problem per se with people using "drugs" in their craft, the only thing I might add, is that traditional use of hallucinogenic plants etc is within the framwork of ritual. I know people who have done work with shamans in South America and the preparation, fasting, eating special foods etc, is quite extensive, then they are also guided by the "expert" present all the time and the experience on site lasts at least a week. How people in the industrial part of the world today tend to use hallucinogenics as a fast path to spiritual experiences I'm more doubtful about. We certainly have a drug culture today but not a sacred drug culture. Did your grand mother teach you how to prepare and use the mushrooms she used? I would hope so, that way there would be transmission and you would know a safe way to use it. Because I've also met people who never ever snapped out of what they took. I think that's rarely the case in a ritualistic setting because your guide would not let you go through with it if he/she didn't think you were ready. However downing some mushrooms, peyote, mescalin or LSD (ok it's chemical not natural) on your own might turn out to be a never ending nightmare, in my opinion. The plants have a consciousness I believe and maybe they even know why you're truly using them, and if they feel it's for the wrong reasons they can take vengence and it's not pretty.


Unfortunately, many times you may think you're getting an experienced guide... but that's not exactly the case.

Your reference to South America reminds me of the Ayahuasca trips I've heard of. Some of these, in fact most of the ones 'outsiders' can get into, are set up for tourists. You have be on a particular diet because part of the Ayahuasca mix is a MOAI, which can interact dangerously with certain foods, medications, and drugs. And Ayahuasca is not a 'fun' experience... not something people are likely to do for kicks. You'll get very sick, and some experiences I've heard described are incredibly frightening. I'm sure many unfortunate people learned this the hard way in some of the shadier gatherings.

Much like the sweat lodge deaths in Arizona.

If you choose to use a guide, make sure you know they have the needed experience. Make sure it's someone you trust. And do your own damn research too, guide or not. Research the substance you'll be taking... get to know it... respect it! Make sure your taking it in the safest way possible.

I think the problem isn't so much the drug itself... it's how it's used. Flippantly, recreationally, and without respect... not only is that dangerous, but it's unlikely to give a person a deep, spiritual experience. Someone just looking for an escape... may find themselves in a dangerous cycle of escaping with drugs.

I have absolutely no issues with people using mind altering substances in their craft... I think for some, they can be valuable tools. But for the inexperienced reading this who are considering this path, I would say: Stop! Think! Read! Learn! And when you think you're ready, stop and think some more. Know yourself, know your reasons, and know your substance.

~ Freki

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#11 Michele

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:33 PM

I don't have a problem per se with people using "drugs" in their craft, the only thing I might add, is that traditional use of hallucinogenic plants etc is within the framwork of ritual. I know people who have done work with shamans in South America and the preparation, fasting, eating special foods etc, is quite extensive, then they are also guided by the "expert" present all the time and the experience on site lasts at least a week. How people in the industrial part of the world today tend to use hallucinogenics as a fast path to spiritual experiences I'm more doubtful about. We certainly have a drug culture today but not a sacred drug culture. Did your grand mother teach you how to prepare and use the mushrooms she used? I would hope so, that way there would be transmission and you would know a safe way to use it. Because I've also met people who never ever snapped out of what they took. I think that's rarely the case in a ritualistic setting because your guide would not let you go through with it if he/she didn't think you were ready. However downing some mushrooms, peyote, mescalin or LSD (ok it's chemical not natural) on your own might turn out to be a never ending nightmare, in my opinion. The plants have a consciousness I believe and maybe they even know why you're truly using them, and if they feel it's for the wrong reasons they can take vengence and it's not pretty.


I agree with everything you've said here. And I think it a very good saying "drug culture" vs. "sacred drug culture." In other words the use of many drugs is for recreation. Drugs here are often used to escape knowledge rather than to expand knowledge. I would also ask why one wanted to corss the hedge - what their reasoning is. I know it is a very validating experience, but bottom line is the other world and the plants that access it owe us nothing. In fact the natural world has much reason to dislike our species immensley. And I don't think being a witch gives one an automatic relationship. These days there are witches who litter, cut down trees, and have done nothing to develop a relationship with the natural world - witches who still feel the natural world answers to them. No relationship with the plant has been embarked upon, and no knowledge from the plant as to how to use it and what amount to use and for what purpose has been transmitted. There are some who knew this and some who still have the lore or access to it, but I personally believe a bond must be made first. The human world takes, takes, takes and rarely gives and the natural world has withdrawn itself from us. It will take much more time and effort to re-establish trust than taking a mind-altering plant and "maybe" crossing the hedge and announcing ourselves. If someone opened my front door and walked into my house uninvited and announced "hi - I'm here to be friends with you" I'd probably kick them in the face, lol. Respect, relationship, trust, and etiquitte are big things and can take years or longer to develop. What has been done cannot be undone, and we've done an aweful lot to their world. They're not lookiong to "make friends" with humans and there is no sweet, smiling, loving god/ess who is going to save us from our own errors simply because we're humans and we think we have a right to take their knowledge. Relationship. I can never say that word enough.

M

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#12 Betula

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

Your reference to South America reminds me of the Ayahuasca trips I've heard of. Some of these, in fact most of the ones 'outsiders' can get into, are set up for tourists. You have be on a particular diet because part of the Ayahuasca mix is a MOAI, which can interact dangerously with certain foods, medications, and drugs. And Ayahuasca is not a 'fun' experience... not something people are likely to do for kicks. You'll get very sick, and some experiences I've heard described are incredibly frightening. I'm sure many unfortunate people learned this the hard way in some of the shadier gatherings.

~ Freki
[/quote]

Freki, just to clarify myself, my friends who did work in South America are Equatorians and part Natives, they were not outsiders or tourists and the person they worked with would not have recieved tourists. They talked about the phenomen you mentioned, "shamanism for tourists", in this case this is not what happened though. Maybe I should have clarified that not all my friends are Westerners....

@ Michelle, I agree with you and that crossing over as you say might not be a nice experience and a good question as you said, is why you want to do it? I have a friend who asked me why someone as curious and open as me haven't dabbled more in drugs, my answer to him was, I never needed to, I was brought where I needed to go without it.

Edited by Betula, 27 May 2012 - 01:46 PM.

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#13 Freki

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:16 PM

Freki, just to clarify myself, my friends who did work in South America are Equatorians and part Natives, they were not outsiders or tourists and the person they worked with would not have recieved tourists. They talked about the phenomen you mentioned, "shamanism for tourists", in this case this is not what happened though. Maybe I should have clarified that not all my friends are Westerners....


I probably should have worded that better! I apologize, someone can get me thinking and set me off on a rant. It wasn't directed at you. I didn't mean to imply that what you were talking about or who you knew were not legitimate. Your statement simply got me thinking of westerners I know who think they're getting the experience you're talking about: a legitimate shaman, giving them a legitimate experience. I wanted to point out to people who may be seeking an experienced guide, to do their research! Odds are, if a person is an outsider, and they found this 'spiritual experience' easily, and got invited into it easily... they're not getting a genuine experience... in fact, they could be entering into something dangerous. Just because someone claims to be an experienced guide, doesn't mean they are. Finding a guide doesn't take away an individual's responsibility to do their own research.

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#14 Mountain Witch

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

[...] since this particular part of the forum is public and literally anyone can view it, and some of us do have our faces on our profiles and so on.


The header to this part of the forum is a bit of a misnomer, but it's the only real way to differentiate between those sections available to seekers and those only available to full members. This particular section is not visible to the general public. Even in those areas that ARE visible to guests and search engines (which are marked as "Guests CAN view this"), unless someone is a member, they will get an error message if they try to view a profile.

Just thought you might like to know ...

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#15 Michele

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:33 PM

The header to this part of the forum is a bit of a misnomer, but it's the only real way to differentiate between those sections available to seekers and those only available to full members. This particular section is not visible to the general public. Even in those areas that ARE visible to guests and search engines (which are marked as "Guests CAN view this"), unless someone is a member, they will get an error message if they try to view a profile.

Just thought you might like to know ...


Actually that is good to know, lol - I had not realized it.

M

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#16 CelticGypsy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:52 PM

I elect to not use any type of 'drug' in my practice.
J


Like the use of any herb or tool, this is a private and personal decision for the witch.


I think the problem isn't so much the drug itself... it's how it's used. Flippantly, recreationally, and without respect... not only is that dangerous, but it's unlikely to give a person a deep, spiritual experience.I have absolutely no issues with people using mind altering substances in their craft... I think for some, they can be valuable tools. But for the inexperienced reading this who are considering this path, I would say: Stop! Think! Read! Learn! And when you think you're ready, stop and think some more. Know yourself, know your reasons, and know your substance.
~ Freki


Relationship. I can never say that word enough.

M


I would have to be stupid and so full of ego, not to accept this wisdom. This wisdom is offered with an open palm, for the taking. There will always be those among us that will perish from the lack of knowledge. When one seeks to find on their Path something that is not accessible to them, or remains closed, it's there for a reason at that time. If a wild seed finds its way to my domestic garden, I'm inclined to take that as a gift to me, to study and come to personal terms as to why this natural event happened.

Why my garden, why not yours ?

I'm not going to revoke the validity of Nature, I would be humbled, and take the next step of friendship with it.

Regards,
Gypsy

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#17 sarasuperid

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:22 PM

The friendship developed with plants loved and cared for from seed to harvest, to new growth again the spring. This is an important aspect of my work with plant allies like mugwort. I do not think one has to have a green thumb or start plants from seed to build relationship every bit as valid is meeting a plant in the wild or and building a relationship with it there. There are other ways, but I thinking knowing the plant while it is alive is ideal a plant that I like alot, damiana does not grow in this zone so I relate to it only in dried form, and we are amicable but there is not the closeness I have with my garden plants.
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#18 CelticGypsy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:43 PM

In the Private Section of this Forum, one of my Peers discovered a unique little purple flower growing in one of her flower beds, she promptly posted a picture for indentification purposes and our Mountain Witch gave her the wisdom of what it was.

Our Peer, said she DID NOT plant this, upon review of this post in the Private section, and knowing our Peer from time spent here, I'd be inclined to suspect that our Peer did not rip this pretty little natural thing from her flower bed, she developed a relationship with it.

Again,..... why her garden.......... and not mine ... ??? It was a gift given to her from Nature.

Regards,
Gypsy

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#19 seacow

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 04:43 PM

I don't have a problem per se with people using "drugs" in their craft, the only thing I might add, is that traditional use of hallucinogenic plants etc is within the framwork of ritual. I know people who have done work with shamans in South America and the preparation, fasting, eating special foods etc, is quite extensive, then they are also guided by the "expert" present all the time and the experience on site lasts at least a week. How people in the industrial part of the world today tend to use hallucinogenics as a fast path to spiritual experiences I'm more doubtful about. We certainly have a drug culture today but not a sacred drug culture. Did your grand mother teach you how to prepare and use the mushrooms she used? I would hope so, that way there would be transmission and you would know a safe way to use it. Because I've also met people who never ever snapped out of what they took. I think that's rarely the case in a ritualistic setting because your guide would not let you go through with it if he/she didn't think you were ready. However downing some mushrooms, peyote, mescalin or LSD (ok it's chemical not natural) on your own might turn out to be a never ending nightmare, in my opinion. The plants have a consciousness I believe and maybe they even know why you're truly using them, and if they feel it's for the wrong reasons they can take vengence and it's not pretty.


As far as I know, she didn't use anything herself. But I was just a child, and I'm sure she wouldn't have done that around me. She did however teach me the proper preparation and of the use of the amanita. I've refreshed my knowledge of it later on though.

I agree with everything you've said here. And I think it a very good saying "drug culture" vs. "sacred drug culture." In other words the use of many drugs is for recreation. Drugs here are often used to escape knowledge rather than to expand knowledge. I would also ask why one wanted to corss the hedge - what their reasoning is. I know it is a very validating experience, but bottom line is the other world and the plants that access it owe us nothing. In fact the natural world has much reason to dislike our species immensley. And I don't think being a witch gives one an automatic relationship. These days there are witches who litter, cut down trees, and have done nothing to develop a relationship with the natural world - witches who still feel the natural world answers to them. No relationship with the plant has been embarked upon, and no knowledge from the plant as to how to use it and what amount to use and for what purpose has been transmitted. There are some who knew this and some who still have the lore or access to it, but I personally believe a bond must be made first. The human world takes, takes, takes and rarely gives and the natural world has withdrawn itself from us. It will take much more time and effort to re-establish trust than taking a mind-altering plant and "maybe" crossing the hedge and announcing ourselves. If someone opened my front door and walked into my house uninvited and announced "hi - I'm here to be friends with you" I'd probably kick them in the face, lol. Respect, relationship, trust, and etiquitte are big things and can take years or longer to develop. What has been done cannot be undone, and we've done an aweful lot to their world. They're not lookiong to "make friends" with humans and there is no sweet, smiling, loving god/ess who is going to save us from our own errors simply because we're humans and we think we have a right to take their knowledge. Relationship. I can never say that word enough.

M


I've always felt the relationship between me and nature extremely important, and I do work on it daily. Ever since I was a kid the forests around here have brought me solace when I've needed it, and I know each tree, rock and plant in them. Even still when I see trees chopped down I get sad. Respect is extremely important to me, and I get personally offended when I see people completely ignoring the earth and throwing their shit everywhere without giving it a second thought.

But creating a bond with the dried herb/mushroom seems pretty hard. I suppose a connection can be made. If it can be done with dead people and animals, why not plants. But like sara, I too think it would be ideal to be able to crate a relationship with the plant while it's alive, really get to know it. Sadly, that won't be possible here, everything's illegal. But then again so is using them. We get lot's of amanitas in the early fall though, and some liberty caps, so I could try it with them.

The header to this part of the forum is a bit of a misnomer, but it's the only real way to differentiate between those sections available to seekers and those only available to full members. This particular section is not visible to the general public. Even in those areas that ARE visible to guests and search engines (which are marked as "Guests CAN view this"), unless someone is a member, they will get an error message if they try to view a profile.

Just thought you might like to know ...


Oh, kept thinking I posted this in the chit chat are, which I think is public? And that profile thing sounds like a smart move.. I've known people who've been tormented because someone found their profile on a certain site... People can be so childish.. But thanks for the info! Gave me some piece of mind.

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#20 Michele

Michele

    The Exiled Goddess

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 06:04 PM

Word of things done spreads, and things that watch know what you do. So having a relationship with any particular spot of land will be known. I would imagine that plants mass-grown and harvested have greatly (if not completely) withdrawn their spirits, and I do believe it is necessary to involve the actual spirit of the plant if one is looking for more than the "chemical" experience. This I thik can be applied to any plant whether used for medicinal, magical or "crossing" purposes. I grow angel trumpet here (the tree was a gift) and I have not used it as a catalist and probably won't as I am not looking for that, but there is usually some kind of plant that will grow within one's own area. I have heard that one can "awaken", so to speak, dried "sleeping" plants, but honestly I am still on the fence about that one. Althouh I have and do use them I don't feel the same spirit in them as I do from things I collect and/or grow (although chemicaly/medicinally they are fine). Ages ago I got rid of most of my herbs and tried to get it down to only 10. I have sinced seemed to amass a collection again, but I am going to try once more to pare it down to only what I can either grow or is local, or for some necessary things obtain them from a trusted source in materia magica. Once I started looking into it I was amazed at what I could actually find in this area, including my beloved Elder Trees.

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