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Early Christians Accused of Witchcraft by the Roman Empire


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#1 ShadowKing

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:42 AM

I was looking at Latin for Dummies and Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds: A Sourcebook.

Apox. around the time of Nero Christians were believed to be practicing witchcraft. some of the accusations were strikingly familiar including casting curses on crops and livestock, cannibalism, the abduction and mutilation of infants and practicing sinister rites in secret.The Romans viewed communion as an act of ritual cannibalism by consuming human flash and the drinking of human blood. I have read form many sources and Latin for Dummies that the phrase hocus pocus is a corruption of hoc est corpus (for this is (my) body) intended to insult the Christians religious practices there are also countless sources from Rome during the classic age to medieval Norway and Wales. It is clear to me that witchcraft is and will always be a scape-goat because of ignorance and misunderstanding. I always found it Ironically hypocritical that my now ex neighbor and real world counterpart to Mrs. Kravitz , who is a devout Catholic and on multiple occasions dismissed my work as hocus pocus to which I always reply with a mischievous grin.

Edited by Panis, 14 May 2012 - 07:43 AM.

"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#2 Hawkgirl23

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:40 AM

I was looking at Latin for Dummies and Magic, Witchcraft, and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds: A Sourcebook.

Apox. around the time of Nero Christians were believed to be practicing witchcraft. some of the accusations were strikingly familiar including casting curses on crops and livestock, cannibalism, the abduction and mutilation of infants and practicing sinister rites in secret.The Romans viewed communion as an act of ritual cannibalism by consuming human flash and the drinking of human blood. I have read form many sources and Latin for Dummies that the phrase hocus pocus is a corruption of hoc est corpus (for this is (my) body) intended to insult the Christians religious practices there are also countless sources from Rome during the classic age to medieval Norway and Wales. It is clear to me that witchcraft is and will always be a scape-goat because of ignorance and misunderstanding. I always found it Ironically hypocritical that my now ex neighbor and real world counterpart to Mrs. Kravitz , who is a devout Catholic and on multiple occasions dismissed my work as hocus pocus to which I always reply with a mischievous grin.


I agree but we all know that Nero was a sick and twisted man. Look at what he did to his mother. Of course Christians turned around and accused Pagans of the same thing, which makes me shake my head. I remember mentioning about the Romans burning people that they thought were witches at the stake and someone replied that the Romans never did that because they didn't fear witches. Fearing witches is a Christian thing. Can we say blinders anyone.


#3 ShadowKing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:27 AM

removed because of glitch.

Edited by Panis, 16 May 2012 - 09:51 AM.

"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#4 ShadowKing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:50 AM

Most ancient polytheistic cultures hated witches. The roman government was very paranoid about witchcraft. Any act of magic involving the ruling class would be punished by death. Any unsanctioned religious gatherings were also pushable by death but depending on your status you also had the choice of exile or honorable suicide .The vikings bound and drowned male practitioners of seidr because it broke taboo
"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#5 aurora

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

I know my g/grandmother, would use the virgin Mary in disguise as diana.

#6 CelticGypsy

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:15 PM


Most ancient polytheistic cultures hated witches. The roman government was very paranoid about witchcraft. Any act of magic involving the ruling class would be punished by death. Any unsanctioned religious gatherings were also pushable by death but depending on your status you also had the choice of exile or honorable suicide .The vikings bound and drowned male practitioners of seidr because it broke taboo



Seidr, as I've come to understand this was Freyja of the Vanirs, magic. Perhaps these Vikings drowned male practictioners who preformed this magic because it was shamanistic in nature, and women were not the exclusive workers of Freyja's seidr. There are hints in the poems and prose that at one time seider was also practiced by males. If a male practiced her form of magic, the men had to dress like a woman. Maybe this emasculated those macho Vikings, this form of magic is doesn't mean the male was homosexual, cross dressing is an ancient tradition, that has roots in the belieft that a male has to spiritually become a woman in order to serve this particular goddess.

Could this be the taboo, you are referencing, Panis ?

Regards,
Gypsy

Edited by CelticGypsy, 29 September 2013 - 05:30 PM.

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#7 aurora

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:20 PM

I grew up with sooooooo much mythology related to messina. All the stories, processions.
The two giants who founded messina, mata and grifone. The sirens. Eolo,god of the wind,son of poseidone.palgi,twins of zesuse,sibill,odysseus,blah blah blah,ohh I remember the name to invoke diana it was lia.
All this in mind im absolutely amazed they got converted to catholics, so i can understand the fear of begin put to death,hence they used catholic and or christian gods as subs.


#8 Scylla

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:50 PM

casting curses on crops and livestock

"IT is a sin to grow two crops in the same plot! You are damning yourself to hell! Damn you and damn your crops!"

cannibalism

"Eat of my flesh and drink of my blood and you shall live forever"

the abduction and mutilation of infants

Circumcision.

practicing sinister rites in secret.

Ever see someone get "delivered"? It sounds more like they're being horsed than the reverse.

In short, the Romans did not grasp the "context", but did pretty much hit the nail on the head.


#9 ShadowKing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:58 PM

Seidr, as I've come to understand this was Freyja of the Vanirs, magic. Perhaps these Vikings drowned male practictioners who preformed this magic because it was shamanistic in nature, and women were not the exclusive workers of Freyja's seidr. There are hints in the poems and prose that at one time seider was also practiced by males. If a male practiced her form of magic, the men had to dress like a woman. Maybe this emasculated those macho Vikings, this form of magic is doesn't mean the male was homosexual, cross dressing is an ancient tradition, that has roots in the belieft that a male has to spiritually become a woman in order to serve this particular goddess.
Could this be the taboo, you are referencing, Panis ?

Regards,
Gypsy

Yes and thank you for explaining the taboo is known as ergi (unmanlyness) and may have roots in our modern word angry. I was too lazy to go into the complexities of viking culture.

"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#10 sarasuperid

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:07 PM

"IT is a sin to grow two crops in the same plot! You are damning yourself to hell! Damn you and damn your crops!"


"Eat of my flesh and drink of my blood and you shall live forever"


Circumcision.


Ever see someone get "delivered"? It sounds more like they're being horsed than the reverse.

In short, the Romans did not grasp the "context", but did pretty much hit the nail on the head.


OMGs can I kiss you Scylla?! This is brilliant.

"A Craft, a calling, a set of Keys to unlock a particular cosmology that is borne, and born, in the blood of the practitioner, and sets the Work to be done with which one may commune with those who hold the patterns and keys of the life of the practitioner and hir stream. The Work is to be done, and we are to do it." --Aiseling the Bard

#11 ShadowKing

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:37 PM

"IT is a sin to grow two crops in the same plot! You are damning yourself to hell! Damn you and damn your crops!"

.......

Ever see someone get "delivered"? It sounds more like they're being horsed than the reverse.

In short, the Romans did not grasp the "context", but did pretty much hit the nail on the head.


Its basically the same as being horsed.LOL XD

"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#12 Guest_Rev. Gregori_*

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:21 PM

rulers would hate witches because of fear of losing their grip on the populace, a witch could dethrone.....odd though, it were witches, magi, that bestowed lordship onto some kid born in a barn to a run away teen girl.

one would think, if xtians were so secure in the power of their religion, they wouldn't be afraid of witches either. guess, still afraid we'd dethrone them.



AND WHY WOULD WE HARM CROPS AND LIVESTOCK?! WTF! it would harm the fuckin witch, too...we gotta eat. if anything you'd think we'd be known for creating abundant crops and fat cows.
anywho....science will be next world religion and xtianity will be demonized just like we were by the church.






#13 CelticGypsy

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:27 PM


Its basically the same as being horsed.LOL XD



Isn't this a term taken from vodou, meaning to allow another spiritual being temporarily inhabit and enjoy your body and its sensations as their own, yet the one being rode, is very conscience of this, from what I've come to understand by other discussions. Like a partnership/relationship of sorts.

Regards,
Gypsy

Edited by CelticGypsy, 29 September 2013 - 05:32 PM.

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#14 Evergreen47

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:50 PM

Isn't this a term taken from vodou, meaning to allow another spiritual being temporarily inhabit and enjoy your body and its sensations as their own, yet the one being rode, is very conscience of this, from what I've come to understand by other discussions. Like a partnership/relationship of sorts.

Regards,
Gypsy


You're correct, CG.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

-=Frank Herbert=-

 

Rock on, gold dust woman. Take your silver spoon and dig your grave.


#15 ShadowKing

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:07 AM

one would think, if xtians were so secure in the power of their religion, they wouldn't be afraid of witches either. guess, still afraid we'd dethrone them.



They were more afraid of the impeding debts so they encouraged the witch trials because the property would be confiscated and then sold to pay off the depts. the curch at that time was very secure. pope Alexander VI for example had numerous iligetimet children and openly shared his bed with a married woman. even though he was an openly corrupt pope who probably broke every commandment in the bible. he was still revered and respected by his contemporaries because of his station. the biblical definition for Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. I couln't imagine believing in things I hope for and yet do not see.


AND WHY WOULD WE HARM CROPS AND LIVESTOCK?! WTF! it would harm the fuckin witch, too...we gotta eat. if anything you'd think we'd be known for creating abundant crops and fat cows.
anywho....science will be next world religion and xtianity will be demonized just like we were by the church.


most people depended on the family farmstead in those days. if you wanted to destroy someone you would curse the crops so they wouldn't have any food and you would harm the livestock so they had no source of currency and with no money or livestock you would be in poor favor with your land lord.

if science comes into totalitarian power and that power demonizes and persecutes the church then nothing will stop them from demonizing and persecuting witchcraft and then instead of killing the people accused of witchcraft they would most likely lobotomize them and parade their drooling carcases around as an example of those would challenge the supreme order of science.

"We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! " -Endora

#16 aurora

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:07 AM

Isn't this a term taken from vodou, meaning to allow another spiritual being temporarily inhabit and enjoy your body and its sensations as their own, yet the one being rode, is very conscience of this, from what I've come to understand by other discussions. Like a partnership/relationship of sorts.

Regards,
Gypsy



#17 aurora

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:11 AM

Thanks gypsy, for the explanation of begin horsed.I was wondering what it could mean,I have never heard that expression before.

#18 Whiterose

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:09 PM

They were more afraid of the impeding debts so they encouraged the witch trials because the property would be confiscated and then sold to pay off the depts. the curch at that time was very secure. pope Alexander VI for example had numerous iligetimet children and openly shared his bed with a married woman. even though he was an openly corrupt pope who probably broke every commandment in the bible. he was still revered and respected by his contemporaries because of his station. the biblical definition for Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. I couln't imagine believing in things I hope for and yet do not see.




most people depended on the family farmstead in those days. if you wanted to destroy someone you would curse the crops so they wouldn't have any food and you would harm the livestock so they had no source of currency and with no money or livestock you would be in poor favor with your land lord.

if science comes into totalitarian power and that power demonizes and persecutes the church then nothing will stop them from demonizing and persecuting witchcraft and then instead of killing the people accused of witchcraft they would most likely lobotomize them and parade their drooling carcases around as an example of those would challenge the supreme order of science.



This last part is a scary thought, yet it has happened in the past and is happening now. Those who are strictly non conforming are mentally ill and need to be "fixed". I shudder to think of the new ways science will create to control the non conforming. I saw a thing on the news last night that they have now developed microchips to help paralyzed people have control over their motor funtions. Different groups have put chips in drivers licences (NYS, I had one) so you wont need a passport, and now they are experimenting with micro technology in tatoo ink so you can "feel your phone vibrate" when you get a call . Science fiction is fast becoming reality and though its done in the guise of benefiting humanity, things always have a flip side.


#19 CelticGypsy

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 10:52 PM

Thanks gypsy, for the explanation of begin horsed.I was wondering what it could mean,I have never heard that expression before.



You're welcome, Aurora. My knowledge is limited in the Voudon way of practicing that certain Craft. But what I've come to know as this is an alliance between the human and the spirit.

I may be wrong, but I think Syclla's reference about being delivered, in the xtian sense, is not referencing Voudon. But Syclla's point is very well given. The human being in that circumstance was not a willing person, to have an entity take over their person. But we're getting a bit off topic...lol !

Regards,
Gypsy

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#20 Scylla

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:28 AM

To explain what I meant in my own words: Here in the South I've only heard the term "Delivered" to mean "Being delivered from demons" - that is to say a form of exorcism by inviting "god" into your life. What it usually sounds like, rather, is a full on possession and not the reverse. :)