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FoxnFeather

Science and Magic

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So my questions aredo you believe science and magic 'coexist'? And why do some people feel thattheir beliefs are being questioned when people 'try to explain magic withscience/psychology?

 

I have never had aproblem studying magic alongside science in my mind neither one can disprovethe other, but I have never tried to fit the two together. Last xmas I watcheda program on the BBC which explained the basic theories of physics. It was all stuffI had come across before but I had never considered trying to link it to myunderstanding of magic.

 

Now I am not by anystretch of the imagination a physicist, I have studied it at a basic levelalong with cosmology and it was incredibly interesting but it has always leftme scratching my head at the end. So I'mnot even going to try and explain my understanding of quantum physics becauseit will probably be way of the mark. What I will do is leave a link at thebottom to the amazing Brian Cox (I've always had a strange fascination withpeople who can accept the existence of dark matter and parallel universes butcan dismiss even the possibility of magic) and if any of you haven't seem hislecture 'night with the stars' it’s well worth the watch whatever yourknowledge of science.

 

 

 

just like to know what you think

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4f9wcSLs8ZQ - it is quite long...

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Guest Hedge Witch

So my questions are do you believe science and magic 'coexist'?

 

Yes. They were once the same thing. Trying to explain our physical world. They then branched off into science and religion.

 

I believe they are now coming back together in the form of quantum physics. I believe quantum physics is well on the way to explaining how magic works. I think eventually quantum physics will gain direct access to the spiritual realms.

 

We all know they exist because we've been there/experienced it. Those that haven't experienced it won't believe it until it can be measured using scientific means. We just haven't figured out how to do that yet.

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Yes. They were once the same thing. Trying to explain our physical world. They then branched off into science and religion.

 

I believe they are now coming back together in the form of quantum physics. I believe quantum physics is well on the way to explaining how magic works. I think eventually quantum physics will gain direct access to the spiritual realms.

 

We all know they exist because we've been there/experienced it. Those that haven't experienced it won't believe it until it can be measured using scientific means. We just haven't figured out how to do that yet.

 

I'm another big supporter of Quantum Physics and the Spiritual Realm. There is a "science" to the metaphysical, even if we have yet to stumble across the exact formulas.

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Interesting question.... Can they coexist? Absolutely... just as otherworld energies can exist in our plane. As others have stated, physics is catching up. But also psychology is not far behind.

 

Dr. Seligman (sp?) from the University of Penn. has started a new discipline in psychology over the past few years. Positive psychology has really started having weight with the psychological community. The premise is the basic "I think, therefore, I am". It speaks to intent and manifestation of our wants and desires. In my world, this is a beautiful introduction to what we do and how we do it. Of course, it has it's base in science, so it can be dismissive of some of our beliefs... but the scientific community realizes that there is more out there than we can possible measure and study.

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I always thought of them as being the one and the same. The things humans can do with science already are so mind blowing that I feel the need to scream SORCERY even though I know that if I wanted I could get all the science behind something on paper and explained. Like the "gun" that can shoot skin directly on people who need skin transplants without any kind of surgery involved, or how we can make giant metal boxes fly through the air. And I'm not completey sure about this, but I think I remember reading somewhere that witches used magnets before science had figured out how and explained it? But I think that's a great example of science and magick being the one and the same. Who knows, maybe our grandchildren will be able to understand through science how grandpa and grandma made the dickhead next door shit himself byt just looking at him funny.

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Its nice to know that there are other witches out there that believe that it is (or could be with time, money and reassuring) possible to explain concepts of magic through science.

'Who knows, maybe our grandchildren will be able to understand through science how grandpa and grandma made the dickhead next door shit himself by just looking at him funny.' eheheh.gifmade me laugh out loud... i think its an amazing thought that one day we'll have such insight into how we 'work'. But i also think that as with all science there will be a limit (even if the limit is only time) to what we can really understand.

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Guest Hedge Witch

But i also think that as with all science there will be a limit (even if the limit is only time) to what we can really understand.

 

I agree that time is our only limit.

 

Man's greatest achievement was going to the moon 40 years ago. If we were to go to the moon today we would use exactly the same technology.

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Haven't read all the replies...

So my questions aredo you believe science and magic 'coexist'?

 

Yes, but I don't believe that all 'science people' and 'magic people' can coexist, due to egos and general cantankerousness.

 

And why do some people feel thattheir beliefs are being questioned when people 'try to explain magic withscience/psychology?

 

Because some people are real assholes in the way they go about trying to explain another person's experience based on their own perspective, attempting to foist their own personal understandings and conclusions on someone else's reality.

I have never had aproblem studying magic alongside science in my mind neither one can disprovethe other, but I have never tried to fit the two together. Last xmas I watcheda program on the BBC which explained the basic theories of physics. It was all stuffI had come across before but I had never considered trying to link it to myunderstanding of magic.

 

I think it's very likely that someday the two will end up explaining each other, but I don't worry about trying to ferret out the explanation myself because I'm too self-absorbed in my own workings to be concerned with making them 'understandable' to the world.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter. :)

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I believe that science and magic go hand in hand and both are ruled by natural laws. The witch as scientist acts on what he or she knows to be true, manipulates the properties of the ingredients, and creates reactions. Science is just a neater package in some people's minds (though it's not always the case).

I defer to Santayana, "Science is nothing but developed perception, interpreted intent, common sense rounded out and minutely articulated."

I think the main difference between a witch and scientist is the need to explain everything. Witches do things because they work. Scientists have to explain why they work before accepting that they work. This makes the witch much more pragmatic and practical on some levels. The scientist as more of a philosopher/explainer.

Just one witch's opinion....

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Just had to put

here.. If that ain't magic then I don't know what is! We basically have the power of the universe inside all of us, or at least that's how I see it. Every time I feel crappy I just watch that video and start feeling strong again.

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I agree with what has already been said. Being a witch AND a scientist (chemist ... or should I say alchemyst), I can confirm that they are able to co-exist quite nicely, although that may be my twin aspects (& yes, they do argue). However, due to ego's etc, there will always be differences of opinion ... on both sides.

 

The basis of science is to understand the world and its natural order, and any good scientist should be open to all possibilities. The perceived restriction comes when theoretical hypotheses move into the realm of physical proof. Proven science is something that is able to be reproduced time and time again under specific conditions. This does not take account of the limitations of our current understandings and scientific knowledge but I have doubt that with time those limitations will be broken down.

 

Scientists over the years have had many problems getting their theories accepted by the wider scientific community let alone by anyone else ... and, as with the Craft, many scientist have been castigated and imprisoned for heresy (Galileo vs Pope). What was once seen to be magick and evil (purely because it couldn't be explained) is now seen to be common knowledge - could you imagine what a Tudor would make of the computer you're looking at? Dark, dark magick indeed and all in a box! (Oh my life! Pandora's box was a computer!) Even relatively recent theories, such as plate tectonics (geology), atmospheric ozone depletion (CFCs etc), not to mention the current big issue (global warming), had or are having a major issue being generally accepted (more often that not because money is involved). So expecting them to 'come out' and reveal that there may be something to the Craft may be a step too far at the moment, although it is readily accepted that pharmaceutical companies do look to folklore and herbalism and I know of many scientist who 'believe'.

 

Theoretical science has suggested for sometime the existence of parallel realities and even a basic understanding of quantum mechanics suggests the possibility that something could exist in two parallel states - possibly at the same time.

 

We live in exciting times, where thankfully we are relatively free to explore without the pitchfork mob standing outside the door ... for both scientists and witches alike.

 

So, in a rambling sort of way, my answer is 'yes'.

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When I first learned about the concept of magic, it was explained to me as a matter of science. Energy is neither created or destroyed, every living thing has energy and gives off energy when it dies. This energy goes out, but is not destroyed and magic is a deep mental capability to manipulate fractions of this energy to your will. This of course is considerably paraphrased, not getting into energy memory, hypnosis levels, and plains of energy existence.

 

Another relatively modern, mostly scientific note. I have several friends who actively participate in "ghost hunting". I have been asked several times if they could study and record during rituals and so on. I havent agreed to that yet since I hold that as relatively private, but it is an interesting possibility, and goes along with scientific proof. Capturing images and voices of 'other worldly' beings, is an ever growing accepted research form, mostly made popular by tv.

 

Otherwise I agree with everything above. Scientific facts of today were once folklore, witchcraft, and religious miracles. It's just a matter of time that positive proof is found and made public. Even then I imagine it will be decades before world religions and so on allow such information to be accepted as anything but hype.

 

Z

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I agree with what has already been said. Being a witch AND a scientist (chemist ... or should I say alchemyst), I can confirm that they are able to co-exist quite nicely, although that may be my twin aspects (& yes, they do argue). However, due to ego's etc, there will always be differences of opinion ... on both sides.

 

The basis of science is to understand the world and its natural order, and any good scientist should be open to all possibilities. The perceived restriction comes when theoretical hypotheses move into the realm of physical proof. Proven science is something that is able to be reproduced time and time again under specific conditions. This does not take account of the limitations of our current understandings and scientific knowledge but I have doubt that with time those limitations will be broken down.

 

Scientists over the years have had many problems getting their theories accepted by the wider scientific community let alone by anyone else ... and, as with the Craft, many scientist have been castigated and imprisoned for heresy (Galileo vs Pope). What was once seen to be magick and evil (purely because it couldn't be explained) is now seen to be common knowledge - could you imagine what a Tudor would make of the computer you're looking at? Dark, dark magick indeed and all in a box! (Oh my life! Pandora's box was a computer!) Even relatively recent theories, such as plate tectonics (geology), atmospheric ozone depletion (CFCs etc), not to mention the current big issue (global warming), had or are having a major issue being generally accepted (more often that not because money is involved). So expecting them to 'come out' and reveal that there may be something to the Craft may be a step too far at the moment, although it is readily accepted that pharmaceutical companies do look to folklore and herbalism and I know of many scientist who 'believe'.

 

Theoretical science has suggested for sometime the existence of parallel realities and even a basic understanding of quantum mechanics suggests the possibility that something could exist in two parallel states - possibly at the same time.

 

We live in exciting times, where thankfully we are relatively free to explore without the pitchfork mob standing outside the door ... for both scientists and witches alike.

 

So, in a rambling sort of way, my answer is 'yes'.

 

 

 

I like your response because it highlights errors in public perception regarding the true nature of scientific inquiry, which is an evolving process with old thoughts and ideals being constantly evaluated and re-evaluated as new information becomes available. Any Witch who is worth the price of his or her broom will appreciate the 'keep growing and adapting' mindset.

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IWe live in exciting times, where thankfully we are relatively free to explore without the pitchfork mob standing outside the door ... for both scientists and witches alike.

 

So, in a rambling sort of way, my answer is 'yes'.

 

Witches and scientists all exist in the same universe. I used to believe that never the twain shall meet, but I don't believe that anymore. Science and magick used to be the same, and in the cyclical nature of things, I'm sure they shall be again.

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Bump.

 

My man and I have had this discussion a few times.  I genuinely believe that at some time in the future, science will be able to explain magic.  Hell, for all we know, it already has- but those in power prevent the fact from being shared with the masses because they'd lose their control if everyone started thinking for themselves and manifesting their intent.  However, if the reality is that science hasn't bothered to provide an explanation for why casting spells works, it's probably because the institution is too busy at this time trying to cure cancer and explore planets to bother studying the Veil and our Talents.

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I actually just posted a topic about spiritual healing from a western medical perspective.  It explores the possibility that spiritual healing occurs through limbic revisioning, Hebbian learning, and epigenetics, and that these processes are the same as removing dark energy or cleaning a client of intrusions.  Found here: http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/11401-spiritual-healing-limbic-revisioning-and-epigenetics/

 

I find that more often then not, science and magic have the same views.  But it depends on how you interpret the information.  Both practices could look at the same information, and explain it with different language, but most of the time, both sides are still talking abut "energy."  Whether you call that energy spiritual energy or not seems more of a personal preference, but it doesnt change much really....

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The Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS) does a lot of research into this topic.  It was founded in the 70's by an astronaut.  Most of their research goes into the way psychology and the workings of the mind can affect physical outcomes in reality.  Some of you may be interested in browsing some of their info.

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I actually just posted a topic about spiritual healing from a western medical perspective.  It explores the possibility that spiritual healing occurs through limbic revisioning, Hebbian learning, and epigenetics, and that these processes are the same as removing dark energy or cleaning a client of intrusions.  Found here: http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/11401-spiritual-healing-limbic-revisioning-and-epigenetics/

 

I find that more often then not, science and magic have the same views.  But it depends on how you interpret the information.  Both practices could look at the same information, and explain it with different language, but most of the time, both sides are still talking abut "energy."  Whether you call that energy spiritual energy or not seems more of a personal preference, but it doesnt change much really....

 

 

I agree, in fact I have recently begun to use scientific language and terminology for spiritual and magickal practices more often, in certain company at least. My husband for instance. Although open minded in many ways, and fully aware of what I am and what I do, he is still very logically driven. I find if use his language to explain things, I get a more positive reaction. We are then better able to have a meaningful communication about certain topics.

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Yes - changing language doesnt always change the meaning, but sometimes makes certain people feel much more comfortable with the subject matter.  You have to use language people understand if you really want to communicate with them.  

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It's great to see alot of Witches see the connection between Quantum physics and magic, i feel exactly the same and nod along with many of the posts here. Seeing how quantum scale-objects can change properties depending on the presence of another person being there or not, the multiverse theory, quantum teleportation etc shows how close scientists are to the mysteries of the universe and magic.

 

Unfortunately, many scientists dismiss the existence of magic because they can't feel or prove it. I think science and magic can definitely co-exist together it's just many people don't realize it.

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For a more animistic point of view, all things have their own energy. In science, this is recognized, and in magic this is recognized. I don't think most of magic will be recognized by science, ever. However, much of what used to be magic IS science now, like medicine, the art of birthing children, poison, dreams, etc. I think a lot of magic can be worked with but is indeed misunderstand at its foundation - hence the mystery of it. I think more magic will become science....however, I also think much of magic will retain its mystery. Magic becomes science when it can be tested and observed regularly, with the same results over and over. Magic in its nature is not this way. Also, many people cannot see/feel/hear what is considered magic - working with spirits, for example. If only a certain prcentage of the world can observe something, how can it be proved to the rest of the world? 

 

I am a student of science.... It has strengthened my beliefs in many ways, and helped chisel away the bullshit of others. I feel having a strong background in both is the best foundation one can have. Science is concrete evidence found in the world, and a way to test the unknown - and for that, it is valuable. Magic is the largely unknown mystery of the world, and the more abstract workings that activate our primitive origins and our connection to the world(s) and realms around us - and for that, it is valuable too.

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So my questions aredo you believe science and magic 'coexist'?

 

If science and art coexist, why can't science and magic/religion?  "Coexist" does not imply "mean the same thing" or "substitue for each other".   It means each being its own thing in its own space.  Science "can't" explain magic because it is not a scientific process.  It is a spiritual/poetic one.

 

And why do some people feel that their beliefs are being questioned when people 'try to explain magic withscience/psychology?

 

Personally, I am more offended by the notion that magic "needs" to be "explained" by science (psychology is a science!) as if one had any more validity or necessity than the other.  Science is wonderful and necessary, and magic is not science, but that doesn't make it inferior, just different.  Trying to prove/disprove magic with science is like using science to prove or disprove poetry.

 

 

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So my questions aredo you believe science and magic 'coexist'?

 

If science and art coexist, why can't science and magic/religion?  "Coexist" does not imply "mean the same thing" or "substitue for each other".   It means each being its own thing in its own space.  Science "can't" explain magic because it is not a scientific process.  It is a spiritual/poetic one.

 

And why do some people feel that their beliefs are being questioned when people 'try to explain magic withscience/psychology?

 

Personally, I am more offended by the notion that magic "needs" to be "explained" by science (psychology is a science!) as if one had any more validity or necessity than the other.  Science is wonderful and necessary, and magic is not science, but that doesn't make it inferior, just different.  Trying to prove/disprove magic with science is like using science to prove or disprove poetry.

 

 

 

 

 

This is an interesting view and I was particularily drawn to your connection of magic and poetry. Poetry is what my grandmother used to start teaching me witchcraft.  To the OP, I think science can recognize the magical and sometimes even offer an explantion as to why it might work but as science relies on evidences (as known at the time) and magic relies on belief, I'm not sure the two could ever be completely reconciled. I do think science will keep trying.  The drive to discover the universe seems to be heavily rooted in the desire to find/understand/be able to prove or disprove the exsistence of magical things. 

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