The Exile Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 . A George Pettingill found in Brandon, Suffolk In the debates about George Pickingill, there was a George Wells, a Romany, that mentioned to Mike Howard about the Pickingills in Brandon. The following newspaper article from 1800 is the first of a Pettingill found connected with Brandon, Suffolk. And of all forenames, his was George. This proves that there were a Pettingill family in the area of Brandon, Suffolk. The name of the Pickingill family in Hockley, Eastwood, and Canewdon is often spelled Pettingill or Pettingale. Perhaps with further research we may find that the families of Brandon and Canewdon related. From The British Newspaper Archive. Searched on March 1, 2012 Thursday 8:30 PM. Ipswich Journal - Saturday 13 December 1800 Prisoners committed to the House of Correction for the Liberty of Bury. John Malen, committed by the Earl of Albermarle and J. R. Burch, Esq. charged with stealing a steel-trap, the property of Robert Eagle, Esq. of Wangford. John Collins, committed by J. R. Burch, Esq. charged with stealing one rabbit, from the warren of R. Eagle, Esq. before mentioned. Tho. Prick, committed by the same Magistrate, also for stealing one rabbit, the property of the aforesaid Mr. Eagle. George Pettingill, committed by the above Magistrate, for stealing 9 fat fowls, the property of Edward Dymock, of Brandon. Wm. Gathercole, convicted before John Swale, Esq. of stealing a quantity of turnips, the property of Mr. Joseph Hammond, of Lakenheath, and Mr. John Robinson, of Eriswell, sentenced to one month's imprisonment and hard labour. The following is the image from the newspaper. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarasuperid Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Our Pickingills were a hungry lot, weren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Our Pickingills were a hungry lot, weren't they? It does look like it. Found the wife of George Pickingill stealing potatoes ! I posted it on the other thread. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froglover Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I should put it on record here that a while ago I was contacted by someone claiming to be George Wells' grandchild; basically saying that "I thought that side of grandad's life was a family secret and now I see it plastered all over the web - what you know about our family?" I had to explain, of course, that everything I knew about George Wells was right out there plastered on the web, and what I had was questions..... Now, I know that some people will respond with a pitying smile to this, certainly some Wiccans I know were a bit ironical. "Grandad was a trad witch, eh? What an unusual claim....." However my contact behaved in an absolutely believable manner; most notably was keen to break off the conversation on finding I wasn't sitting on any further info, but continued the discussion uninformatively for a little while motivated by what seemed to be purely courtesy. No sign of any desire to impose on me in any way. Furthermore using the magic of the internet I was able to find out a little about my contact who was indeed living in South London in an occupation that fits my perhaps ignorant stereotype of a likely Romany occupation.....but in short I'm inclined to think my contact was honest..... Obviously I'm protecting this person's identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticGypsy Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 IFurthermore using the magic of the internet I was able to find out a little about my contact who was indeed living in South London in an occupation that fits my perhaps ignorant stereotype of a likely Romany occupation.....but in short I'm inclined to think my contact was honest..... Obviously I'm protecting this person's identity. Truth needs no protection it stands on it's own merit. It is impeccable. Given circumstances, heed the concern of your source, they are going out on a limb to provide you with information. Regards,Gypsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 . thanks for the comments Froglover and Celtic Gypsy Someday I will smoke out George Wells from hiding. Only problem is that his name is semi common. So until that day I get a name with a place and a date it will be hard to locate him. London is a big place, I think the last time I checked on George Wells there were several of them that died in the London area, but that is if the right one did died there. Froglover we could use his name (the grandson) just to trace back to the elusive grandfather, George Wells, and then to see what his roots were like (before George Wells) so we can place them in history. But the name of the grandson and even the name of his father will be kept private and out of the research. But I understand if you want to keep it all private. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 . This is what was mentioned about George Wells in the Pickingill Papers or website:http://bissekart.zoo...ckingill/2.html "Mike Howard advised me in personal correspondence dated 27th March 1997 : "Your comments about the gypsies and Pickingill covens has reminded me of an encounter I had in 1976 with a Romany called George Wells who lived in South London. He claimed to know of Pickingill people on the Suffolk-Essex border at Brandon, and others still in the New Forest area." Mike was not impressed and gave little heed to Wells at the time. In hindsight this was a pity. It may have been possible to corroborate some of the claims in the Lugh material. " One wonders if these are some relevant Wells ?http://genforum.gene...sages/9429.html Re: Descendants of the WELLS band of gypsies Posted by: John Wells -- Date: July 14, 2004 at 16:18:16 Sylvie Jenkyn, NEW FOREST, Seeking information about my grand parents, Henry and Dowsha Wells (Romany - Gypsies of the New Forest). Henry and Dowsha were, I think, cousins and so were both Wells. Dowsha was the daughter of George and Matilda Wells. Other siblings were: Charlie, Albert, Ben, George, Amy, Annie and Freda. (tradition says that Charles II gave these Wells use of part of the New Forest following a dalliance he had with Frances Winifred Wells). It is interesting to note that there are descendants of Romany Wells in the United States who travelled out from England - researcher Nancy Norton Theresa Weston, MINSTEAD, NEW FOREST. Wells family who were gypsies living in Minstead from 1903 approx onwards? Harriett Wells and Henry George Wells had nine children and all lived at Shave-Green and later " Near The Grove" Minstead. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Theresa. Laurine Potter, BRAMSHOTT / PETERSFIELD / GRIGGS GREEN, I was brought up believing that my ancestors were Romany gypsies. My late father name was James Benjamin Wells and his father was also named James Wells. at the time of the marriage my father then aged 25 was living in a place called Griggs Green (Just to the west of Liphook on the eastern edge of Woolmer Forest). He married my mother in 1950 in Bramshott, Hamphsire and they stayed in and around that area until 1956 . We only had very occassional contact with the family when I was a child living in Petersfield. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froglover Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Hi Exile....London is a big place but South London is smaller. Mike Howard met George Wells in South London and the grandchild lives in South London; I'm thinking we probably have an established South London family. Could be wrong of course.....but I'm thinking we might look for "the" George Wells in the older parts of South London. And indeed the Romany parts if any; I get the clear impression from the grandchild that George Wells was a man of mark amongst his own; although 'his own' might be a small group of people of course. His reputation did not include witchcraft which implies that he had a reputation. A bit of internet research tells me that Romany are a significant part of South London history, and in particular Mitcham in South London is known as an area with comparatively high Romany density. As in Gravesend, Kent, on the fringe of London (where George Pickingill of Canewdon was living when he married) Romany worked the market gardens around London and many settled when that source of employment collapsed around the middle of last century. Mitcham in South London was one of the places where they notably settled. I think we are quite likely to find George Wells in the environs of Mitcham. George Wells talked to Mike Howard back in 1976 about his knowledge of the Pickingills; he must have known that was not the path of effective secrecy. As always I have the feeling that there is a desire among traditional craft people to release information and maintain secrecy at the same time! And that may be good sense after all. But don't worry Celtic Gypsy, I respect the desire of the grandchild not be identified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 . Thanks for the comments Froglover. It will give me some clues of where to look. Doing a general search on [ "George Wells" "South London" "Romany" ] on Google brings up over 4,000 entrys. Some because of what we mentioned about George Wells before and a bunch of it is cluttered with "Herbert George Wells" the famous author "H. G. Wells". There seem to be several Wells Romany in the South London One I came across was a Roy Wells a Romany who fought for the rights of the Gypsies. Don't know if George Wells is of any relationship to him. This email on a Yahoo Group sums up the most about Roy Wells From: "Jenny Smith"Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 8:07 AMTo: "dicegeorge at hotmail dot com"Subject: Fw: Sad death of Roy Wells, early Gypsy Council militant > > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:57 PM> Subject: Sad death of Roy Wells, early Gypsy Council militant>>> Dear friends,>> It is with great regret I inform you of the death of Roy Wells last> Monday.>> Roy Wells led the fight for a Gypsy Caravan Site in Wandsworth in> the late 1960s, running caravan schools there, joining the Gypsy> Council and the National Gypsy Education Council. > For a while he> kept an illegal site open in the grounds of the disused Battersea Power> Station He was one of the stalwarts who kept the National Gypsy> Education Council on a radical path in the 1970s, and led the> demonstration of the Association of Gypsy Organisations in 1972> outside the Houses of Parliament after which eleven of us, including> Grattan Puxon, spent the night in the cells. >He pioneered the legal> defence that Councils could not evist Travellers from their own land> unless they had made provision under the 1968 Caravan Sites Act.> He worked briefly as the first Traveller EWO for the old Inner> London Education Authority, until their bureaucracy became too> much for his free spirit. >For half-a-dozen years he was the effective> leader of the radical wing of the Traveller movement keeping it alive> when it was threatened by by co-option and compromise, and> perhaps at its weakest when disillusion set in after the implementation> of the 1968 Caravan Sites Act after 1970.>> In later years, bruised by the struggle, he worked mainly locally in> West London, suffering from diabetes, and losing his sight, but> remaining indomitable in spirit to the end. May he rest in peace and his> spirit continue to inspire us.>> The funeral is at 2pm at Putney Vale Cemetry on Wednesday 4th> February. If you want to send a card, his widow, Angela, is at 54> Chatto Road, Battersea, London SW11 6LL>> Thomas Acton>>> Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:04:16 +0000 (GMT)> From: angela wells> Send reply to:> To: Thomas Acton> Subject: Urgent attention>> Hi Thomas I have to inform you of the sad news that Roy died on> Monday evening. Could you please inform Donald Kenrick and any> one else from the association who was a close friend of Roy's. I hope> that you will both be able to attend the funeral. Also there will be a> reception at the corner pin pub afterwards.  I look forward to> hearing from you  Angela Wells>> Here it mentioned that his wife was Angela. Can't get information on his death from the index because his death occurred in 2009 and the Ancestry.com cut off date of the index is currently 2005 . But I did note a marriage entry of the following: England & Wales, Marriage Index online at Ancestry.com. Searched September 19, 2012 Wednesday 3:32 PM. Names: Roy K Wells / Angela S Cavaliero Date: Jan-Feb-Mar 1968 Registration District: Haringey County: London Vol: 5b Page: 2067 Perhaps if I wrote to Mike Howard and asked him of what age about George Wells was when he met him, was he alot older that he was at the time in 1976? It may give us a little to narrow down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 . The many George Wells of the London area 1960 One tool that I can use is the All London area Electorial Register at Ancestry.com. I copied all the George Wells from the electoral register of the year 1960 for the London areas. 1960 is the latest one available for the area online. So we are assuming that George Wells was perhaps somewhat older than Mike Howard when he met him in 1976. I would assume he would be older to have an adult grandson today. So the list shows you how many George Wells was in the area. Need more info to narrow down to the right one. All London, England, Electoral Register online at Ancestry.com. Searched September 21, 2012 Friday 8:42 PM. 62 entries 1960 Name / Electoral Year / Parliamentary Division / County or Borough Alfred George Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington Arthur George Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth Edgar George Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington Geoffrey George Wells -- 1960 -- Holborn and St Pancras South -- Camden George Wells -- 1960 -- Clapham -- Wandsworth George Wells -- 1960 -- Clapham -- Wandsworth George Wells -- 1960 -- Clapham -- Wandsworth George Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington George Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George Wells -- 1960 -- Poplar -- Tower Hamlets George Wells -- 1960 -- Poplar -- Tower Hamlets George Wells -- 1960 -- Hampstead -- Camden George Wells -- 1960 -- Dulwich -- Southwark George Wells -- 1960 -- Bethnal Green -- Tower Hamlets George Wells -- 1960 -- St Marylebone -- Westminster George Wells -- 1960 -- Putney -- Wandsworth Henry George Wells -- 1960 -- Poplar -- Tower Hamlets Henry George Wells -- 1960 -- Poplar -- Tower Hamlets George H Wells -- 1960 -- Clapham -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- London and Westminster -- City of London George P Wells -- 1960 -- London and Westminster -- City of London George F Wells -- 1960 -- Brixton -- Lambeth George Frederick Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington George H Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington George C Wells -- 1960 -- Islington South West -- Islington George C Wells -- 1960 -- Kensington South -- Kensington and Chelsea George V Wells -- 1960 -- Lewisham North -- Lewisham George W Wells -- 1960 -- Norwood -- Lambeth George E Wells -- 1960 -- Streatham -- Wandsworth George Thomas Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George E Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George E Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George Edward Wells -- 1960 -- Stepney -- Tower Hamlets George T Wells -- 1960 -- Bermondsey -- Southwark George B Wells -- 1960 -- Bermondsey -- Southwark George W Wells -- 1960 -- Hackney Central -- Hackney George J Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth George F Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth George B Wells -- 1960 -- Hammersmith -- Hammersmith and Fulham George C Wells -- 1960 -- Wandsworth Central -- Wandsworth George H Wells -- 1960 -- Wandsworth Central -- Wandsworth George Z Wells -- 1960 -- Hampstead -- Camden George J Wells -- 1960 -- Dulwich -- Southwark George A Wells -- 1960 -- Greenwich -- Greenwich George J Wells -- 1960 -- Greenwich -- Greenwich George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George E Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- Woolwich West -- Newham George A Wells -- 1960 -- Woolwich West -- Newham George V Wells -- 1960 -- Putney -- Wandsworth George E Wells -- 1960 -- Fulham -- Hammersmith and Fulham George F I Wells -- 1960 -- Brixton -- Lambeth George C I Wells -- 1960 -- Finsbury and Shoreditch -- Islington George A A Wells -- 1960 -- Lewisham South -- Lewisham George E W Wells -- 1960 -- Southwark -- Southwark George F W Wells -- 1960 -- Islington East -- Islington George E W Wells -- 1960 -- Vauxhall -- Lambeth George E T Wells -- 1960 -- Vauxhall -- Lambeth George T R Wells -- 1960 -- Woolwich East -- Newham George H J Wells -- 1960 -- Putney -- Wandsworth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froglover Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Yes, and the truly exciting thing is that "our" George Wells was not necessarily on the electoral rolls! But.....your list yields an interesting point, though, Bill the Exile. The places where these George Wellses lived are not random across London but heavily skewed toward inner London and in particular inner South London. Norwood for example is a 20 minute cycle ride from Mitcham, nor is Wandsworth so very distant.... Several sites I've visited mention that the gypsy families of Mitcham Common noted in the 1881 census still live in Mitcham today. I guessing that Wellses were among those families. Many english gypsies boxed, there was noted boxer "Bombardier Billy Wells"(1889-1969) from Stepney in the early 20th century, don't know if he was Romany, but I note there was also a George Wells from Stepney who had 30 fights or so before world war 2. Need to do some checking here of course but it may be there was a Wells boxing family in Stepney and if so it was quite likely Romany. This is just rambling of course, but I think that is how we will identify George Wells; through finding his family. Unless of course Mike Howard remembers some more clues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froglover Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Yes, and the truly exciting thing is that "our" George Wells was not necessarily on the electoral rolls! But.....your list yields an interesting point, though, Bill the Exile. The places where these George Wellses lived are not random across London but heavily skewed toward inner London and in particular inner South London. Norwood for example is a 20 minute cycle ride from Mitcham, nor is Wandsworth so very distant.... Several sites I've visited mention that the gypsy families of Mitcham Common noted in the 1881 census still live in Mitcham today. I guessing that Wellses were among those families. Many english gypsies boxed, there was noted boxer "Bombardier Billy Wells"(1889-1969) from Stepney in the early 20th century, don't know if he was Romany, but I note there was also a George Wells from Stepney who had 30 fights or so before world war 2. Need to do some checking here of course but it may be there was a Wells boxing family in Stepney and if so it was quite likely Romany. This is just rambling of course, but I think that is how we will identify George Wells; through finding his family. Unless of course Mike Howard remembers some more clues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Well I must say, how interesting. I was born in lambeth, Brixton,went to secondary school in norwood. Got married lived and owned a shop in Gravesend for quite awhile.then moved to maidstone.I used to walk to school with a lad, in Brixton called Robert wells. Heard of pickingill, when I lived in gravesend, stories that is, just can't rember from who. I used to have many contacts in lambeth, stock well,elephant and castle.sadly all gone.Going to ponder on this see if i can help, probably not, so don't hold your breath. Maybe someone in putney if still alive or left address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 . That is interesting Aurora ! Anything you can remember will be helpful. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Had an old address book from way back,do you think i can find the bloody thing, so I wont give up, give me a week ,if nothing then I'll let you know ok. It can and probably will mean nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 . Recieved a reply from Mike Howard concerning George Wells. "It was a long time ago, but as I remember it George Wells lived in Battersea. He must have been in in his his fifties or early sixties when I met him." Important clue is that he was living in Battersea and since he was in his 50s to early 60s in 1976 that would put him born around ca. 1913 to the 1920's. The other gypsy mentioned above Roy Wells died in Battersea too. So they may have been related. Mike aslo mentioned that a daughter of George Wells contacted him recently but she didn't know much more about him. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froglover Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Battersea, huh. Red Battersea, glorious in the annals of the British labour movement and home of Vivianne Westwood who had a lot of do with the founding of the punk subculture. A very interesting place. These days I understand much gentrified apart from the housing estates; one of them, the Winstanely Estate, often given the adjective "notorious". And a place where in the 19th century gypsies gathered, a smaller version of Mitcham Common which is further south. I wonder if, as in Mitcham, the same families can be found living there in the housing estates? George Borrow on the gypsies of Battersea in 1864......http://romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/#/londonsurrey/4525089270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 . So the this is the narrowed down list to those George Wells was in the area of Battersea in 1960. All London, England, Electoral Register online at Ancestry.com. Searched September 21, 2012 Friday 8:42 PM. 6 entries 1960 Name / Electoral Year / Parliamentary Division / County or Borough Arthur George Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George J Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth George F Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George E Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 . Did some checking on The British Phone Books online at ancestry.com There were no George Wells listed for Battersea. But I see that the names were usually with initials for the forenames. Then checked for G. Wells in the time frame of 1960 to 1980, there were several entries of the names but mostly the same listings but different years. I copied here the ones that were for 1976 and 1978 Battersea. 1976 would be when Mike Howard met George Wells SW11 is one of the postcode for the Battersea Two individuals found 1976 Image 530 Page 504 Wells R. G, 7 Wakehurst Rd SW11 ……………………………… 01-223 6176 1978 Image 551 Page 523 Wells R. G, 7 Wakehurst Rd SW11 ……………………………… 01-223 6176 1976 Image 529 Page 503 Wells G. F, 13 Octavia St SW11 …………………………………… 01-223 0733 1978 Image 550 Page 522 Wells G. F, 13 Octavia St SW11 …………………………………… 01-223 0733 Will copy the rest later. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Exile Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 . Since narrowing the Battersea List of 6 from the 1960 Electoral Register I went back to collect the detail form those 6 to get the addresses of these George Wells 6 entries involving Battersea in 1960 1960 Name / Electoral Year / Parliamentary Division / County or Borough Arthur George Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth Details: Wandsworth, Battersea North, 1960, Image No. 28Borough of Battersea, Page 4 Queenstown Road 652 Wells, Annie Elizabeth 186A653 Wells, Arthur George 186A George J Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth Details: Wandsworth, Battersea South, 1960, Image No. 8Borough of Battersea, Page 9 Latchmere Road 1835 Wells, George J. 1331836 Wells, Nellie 133 George F Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea South -- Wandsworth Details: Wandsworth, Battersea South, 1960, Image No. 32Borough of Battersea, Page 8 Severus Road 1584 Wells, George F. 191585 Wells, May A. 19 George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth George A Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth Details: Wandsworth, Battersea North, 1960, Image No. 26Borough of Battersea, Page 1 Battersea Park Road, S.W. 8 [----] Wells, George A., jun. 159[----] Wells, George A., sen. 159 George E Wells -- 1960 -- Battersea North -- Wandsworth Details: Wandsworth, Battersea North, 1960, Image No. 32Borough of Battersea, Page 5 Ingelow Road 883 Bastow, Percy A. F. 25884 Wells, George E. 25885 Wells, Irene M. 25 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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