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The Darker Side of Children's Tales


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#21 Grymdycche

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:45 PM

I was curious about the origins of "Rock a bye baby" and found this..
http://en.wikipedia....Rock-a-bye_Baby

There are no less than 3 different theories, most of which have a chronological problem. The last given on this link's page, an allegory to the son of King James II, seems the most likely to me, as the earliest recorded version of the words in print appeared with a footnote, "This may serve as a warning to the Proud and Ambitious, who climb so high that they generally fall at last".

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#22 westofthemoon

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:35 AM

Here's an interesting quote I found online when trying to research a line from another fairytale:

"The interpretation of Red Riding Hood—which the children need not know—is that the evening Sun goes to see her Grandmother, the Earth, who is the first to be swallowed up by the Wolf of Night and Darkness. The red cloak is the twilight glow. The Hunter may be the rising Sun that rescues all from Night."

here is the link to the rest of the paper: A Study of Fairytales--Laura Kready

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#23 sarasuperid

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:26 AM

Here's an interesting quote I found online when trying to research a line from another fairytale:

"The interpretation of Red Riding Hood—which the children need not know—is that the evening Sun goes to see her Grandmother, the Earth, who is the first to be swallowed up by the Wolf of Night and Darkness. The red cloak is the twilight glow. The Hunter may be the rising Sun that rescues all from Night."

here is the link to the rest of the paper: A Study of Fairytales--Laura Kready


Cute.

"A Craft, a calling, a set of Keys to unlock a particular cosmology that is borne, and born, in the blood of the practitioner, and sets the Work to be done with which one may commune with those who hold the patterns and keys of the life of the practitioner and hir stream. The Work is to be done, and we are to do it." --Aiseling the Bard

#24 Michele

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:38 PM

Well speaking of crossing the hedge I think it interesting that so many of the fairy tales take place in the forest or the wild... outside of town.... across the hedge.

M


#25 Stacey

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

Red Riding Hood always made me think of the danger of darkness or rather not understanding what lay within the darkness. For me that has always meant that we, as people, barely understand the darkness within ourselves and do not explore what lies within our darker selves. It's been some time since I've read fairytales but a couple of months ago I found mine from childhood when cleaning out a couple of boxes - you could tell I enjoyed them because most of them are falling apart (they are 20-some years old).

This is a very interesting topic, I think I may need to reaquaint myself with my stories again. Especially since nowadays they seem to be 'airbrushing' and 'nicing up' the fairytales - although, they are making a few movies this year that seem quite dark.


UPDATE:

I was doing a little research on Wikipedia about
Briar Rose/Sleeping Beautyand this is what I found:

Some folklorists have analyzed Sleeping Beauty as indicating the replacement of the lunar year (with its thirteen months, symbolically depicted by the full thirteen fairies) by the solar year (which has twelve, symbolically the invited fairies). This, however, founders on the issue that only in the Grimms' tale is the wicked fairy the thirteenth fairy; in Perrault's, she is the eighth.[15] The basic elements of the story can also be interpreted as a nature myth: the Princess represents Nature, the Wicked Fairy is Winter, who puts the Court to sleep with pricks of frost until the Prince (Spring) cuts away the brambles with his sword (a sunbeam) to allow the sun to awaken sleeping Nature.

I actually like this idea, very witchy :) but aside from that, because Fairytales are of the 'Other' I am not surprised to find that there is a Pagan bent to them. I imagine this is because the peoples from whom these stories came from didn't christianise them from their traditional telling.


Edited by Stacey, 06 March 2012 - 03:46 AM.

"The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by an invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing." Severus Snape - HP and the Order of the Phoenix

#26 Michele

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:35 PM

IN sleeping beauty the plant that grows over the castle and all the inhabitants is a magical plant - a rose. The dog rose. The rose that has been associated with the "other world." It grew over and concealed all that was beneath it. This same plant was used a lot in hedgerows and would be encountered within the hedge and must be got through in the crossing of the hedge. The plant itself is "enchanting" and it laid the enchantment. A sword is a phallic symbol, and in many fairey tales it is not a kiss that originally awakens the "lost maid" but actual intercourse. This "sacred marriage" has been made "politicaly correct" in most fairey tales these days. In some fairy tales it was even a rape, especially as the maiden was sleeping through the whole thing - "dead" to our world. What is on our side of the hedge is our world, what is on the other side is the underworld. When they are awake, we dream. When we are awake, they dream. The sacred marraige was often between the "king" and the land, and the king was responsible for this relationship, the goodwill of which afforded his people life. The land was a sacred, magical place with magical inhabitants. Without his tending and cultivating of this relationship, those who walked upon the land suffered the effects of the loss of that communion. That is one reason it was very important to the Christians "back in the day" to convert the king to Christianity - he was the spiritual leader of the people as well as the legal ruler. The girl was not always a "princess" but the man who found and awakened her was always a prince/king. Once he awakened her and they were "married" his land and people always flourished with the "happily ever after" relationship.

M


#27 aurora

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

I think I must be a bit twisted because to me red rideing was about peodophli (wolf) in the woods disturbed by the wood cutters,grandmas house,red riding taking of here clothes to get into bed
Very dark and disturbing although I am aware that there are many variations to the story depending on which countries


#28 Jevne

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:20 AM

Today, a friend mentioned how we often "get it wrong" when talking about nursery rhymes and fairy tales. For example, did you realize that no where in Humpity Dumpity does it say anything about an egg? (Now, that is just evil . . . )

:)


#29 Aloe

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

Today, a friend mentioned how we often "get it wrong" when talking about nursery rhymes and fairy tales. For example, did you realize that no where in Humpity Dumpity does it say anything about an egg? (Now, that is just evil . . . )

:)


I've often wondered where the heck the egg illustrations for Humpty Dumpty came from, figured there must be an additional element to that one that's been lost to time (or I just haven't looked hard enough for it yet lol).

"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#30 Marabet

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:10 AM

Well speaking of crossing the hedge I think it interesting that so many of the fairy tales take place in the forest or the wild... outside of town.... across the hedge.

M


I am currently reading Our Lady's Child* and this bit stuck out to me...

Then the girl fell into a deep sleep, and when she awoke she lay on the earth below, and in the midst of a wilderness. She wanted to cry out, but she could bring forth no sound. She sprang up and wanted to run away, but whithersoever she turned herself, she was continually held back by thick hedges of thorns through which she could not break.


What stuck out to me was that this girl's "crossing the hedge" was a punishment and meant to be a form of imprisonment from Heaven and God and the Virgin Mary for her disobedience. Still chewing on that...



*BTW, that's a really awesome site.

Edited by Marabet, 07 March 2012 - 02:12 AM.

I ran to a tower where the church bells chime
I hoped that they would clear my mind
They left a ringing in my ear
But that drum's still beating loud and clear

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#31 8people

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:48 AM

The egg I believe came from Lewis Carroll, the illustrations of Alice Through The Looking Glass featured Humpty Dumpty as an egg. I don't recall finding any egg references before that in regards to old humpty. Even the nursery books I've seen it in are post-Alice.

#32 LdyShalott

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:08 PM

The egg I believe came from Lewis Carroll, the illustrations of Alice Through The Looking Glass featured Humpty Dumpty as an egg. I don't recall finding any egg references before that in regards to old humpty. Even the nursery books I've seen it in are post-Alice.



I always thought it was a riddle rhyme.. and the answer is an egg.. Lewis Carroll gave the answer in his illustration... hmmm, will have to do some research.

Edited to add: "While he's often drawn as an anthropomorphic egg, the original Humpty Dumpty was an oversized cannon that fell from its mount during the siege of Colchester (a Royalist stronghold) in the English Civil War. Apparently, it was so large that it could not be reinstated, even by "all the King's horses and all the King's men". Colchester fell to the Parliamentarians, and the nursery rhyme glorifies the siege "
Still doesnt explain the egg... :pumpkin_rolleyes:

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#33 Jevne

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

Watched the new Hansel and Gretel . . . The witches in that were pretty bad ass. The whole thing about luring children with sweets either speaks to some do not take candy from strangers lesson or to keep your grubby hands off my house lesson.

#34 CelticGypsy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

Watched the new Hansel and Gretel . . . The witches in that were pretty bad ass. The whole thing about luring children with sweets either speaks to some do not take candy from strangers lesson or to keep your grubby hands off my house lesson.


Ya know I recently saw a version of this was greatly disappointed, maybe I watched the wrong one !! This version had Asian young man and woman who were twins sent off to a hoity-toity school, and stumbled upon Craft oriented folk, and one of them was a School principal played by Eric Roberts..... maybe I need to re-visit the DVD section again.Was Eric Roberts in this movie Jev , that you recommend ??!?!Regards,Gypsy

Edited by CelticGypsy, 24 June 2013 - 08:04 PM.

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#35 Jevne

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:30 PM

I know the version you are talking about and no, that is not it. There is another one, that just became available at RedBox or on Netflix. Either way, you were talking about fairy tales, so I thought why not give this a bump for additional conversation.

#36 Whiterose

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

I saw this recently and thought it was pretty good. Somethings for me were a little to close for comfort but others were just pure Hollywood fun. It was a good movie to just kickback with good company and have a laugh or two.