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Divination and the Dead


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#21 Autumn Moon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:30 AM

Ancestor ******/reverence/honoring and necromancy are separate kettles of fish..

If your first approach doesn't bring results, why not try another? There are those times when the Witch is up to bat, and doesn't barrel it outta da' park. So the Witch improvises, grabs a different bat, holds their hands slightly different. I really like your mind set on this, as Witches are skeptical by nature, and just don't swallow everthing they read, or what they are told, but they do keep a critical open mind.

So that worker was not cut out for that particular task or preformed poorly, do you shut down your business because of it... I don't think so, you tweek your advirtisment for hire, to possibly find the right one who would fit in nicely with the job description, you posted. You are going to make your business the most successful it can be, naturally, you didn't set it up to fail.

Regards,
Gypsy


I have tried different approaches, and I have been most cordial, along with offerings, payment (blood, water, food, alcohol, etc.), but each time, the working goes south ie. the working does not 'work',and I do not feel any warm fuzzy feelings of contact.

When I rely on myself to draw the raw powers, make a sacrifice (my blood), the working is successful.

How many times does one have to go down a street to find a house, but does not find it because it simply is not there. I really have to stop trying this street. M, mentioned the Beloved Dead, but it looks like I do not have any. I invite any spirits/ancestors that are beneficial to me, the success of my working (after all, I do not want a sociopath or an abuser showing up). Prior to that I banish any spirits that would be detrimental. There is protection in place.

I have tried to build that 'relationship' long before doing a working, to demonstrate that I am not just 'using' them.

Well, what can I expect, if the relationship did not exist in a positive way when living, how could it be any different when they are dead!

I guess it is just not my path, as it was not when they lived. I extricated myself from that years ago, although the scars still exist, and act up now and then.

Can I find 'some' good memories - sure, but the bad far outweighs it.

Want the job done right, do it yourself. Relatives - bah, humbug.

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#22 Michele

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:56 AM

... if the relationship did not exist in a positive way when living, how could it be any different when they are dead!...



They are not necessarily anyone you knew whilst they were alive. You are accessing their memories. I have often wondered if past life recall is just a strong ancestral memory one picks up on. But that said, in a very paradoxal way, you are also accessing them as well as their memories. They live becuase of you, and you live becuase of them. You are already tied into and part of them... it is just accessing that. Maybe it is as simple as recognizing the contact - direct contact for me is once in a blue moon(usually in dreams), others may be different, I don't know. But were you ever doing something that you didn't know how to do, then suddenly you get that deep, calm feeling and you have a new confidence and your hands are not your own and you know exactly how to proceed? Or even that warning - turn around, go home. Or that prompting - go out, go to that place tonight... They are always with you, you can't not have them. You wouldn't be in existance if that was the case. Maybe it is as simple as how you choose to define and explain certain things. Perhaps it's as simple as a faith or belief or trust that it is where it comes from and not just suddenly one getting impulse from no where. Sometimes it's not thinking, just letting something wash over you, and just feeling without thought. Sometimes it's just letting go... Accepting what can't be explained, believing in what can't be proved, trusting in one's own experiences and desires and gut feelings despite what logic tells us...

M

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#23 Aloe

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:56 AM

They are not necessarily anyone you knew whilst they were alive. You are accessing their memories. I have often wondered if past life recall is just a strong ancestral memory one picks up on. But that said, in a very paradoxal way, you are also accessing them as well as their memories. They live becuase of you, and you live becuase of them. You are already tied into and part of them... it is just accessing that. Maybe it is as simple as recognizing the contact - direct contact for me is once in a blue moon(usually in dreams), others may be different, I don't know. But were you ever doing something that you didn't know how to do, then suddenly you get that deep, calm feeling and you have a new confidence and your hands are not your own and you know exactly how to proceed? Or even that warning - turn around, go home. Or that prompting - go out, go to that place tonight... They are always with you, you can't not have them. You wouldn't be in existance if that was the case. Maybe it is as simple as how you choose to define and explain certain things. Perhaps it's as simple as a faith or belief or trust that it is where it comes from and not just suddenly one getting impulse from no where. Sometimes it's not thinking, just letting something wash over you, and just feeling without thought. Sometimes it's just letting go... Accepting what can't be explained, believing in what can't be proved, trusting in one's own experiences and desires and gut feelings despite what logic tells us...

M


The ancestor work you describe is very different than anything I've ever done. When I work with and communicate with my ancestors, it is me inviting them, specifically, to communicate with me and to continue a relationship we had while they were alive, or in the case of ones I didn't meet while they were alive, to develop a realationship with them. It is very specific, I know when they speak to me, it's not the same as those impulses that seem to come from other places that I pay attention to but am not sure of their origin, it is specific communication. Sometimes I ask them for help, but that's not the focus of my communications with them.

Since we're both saying 'ancestor communication', but describing very different things, I thought it might be good to point out the difference for others reading this thread. The 'group pool' you speak of that exists internally in you is intriguing and I respect that this is your experience, but it's a foreign concept to me, very different from the communication with dead ancestors that I have experience in.

I have tried different approaches, and I have been most cordial, along with offerings, payment (blood, water, food, alcohol, etc.), but each time, the working goes south ie. the working does not 'work',and I do not feel any warm fuzzy feelings of contact.

When I rely on myself to draw the raw powers, make a sacrifice (my blood), the working is successful.

How many times does one have to go down a street to find a house, but does not find it because it simply is not there. I really have to stop trying this street. M, mentioned the Beloved Dead, but it looks like I do not have any. I invite any spirits/ancestors that are beneficial to me, the success of my working (after all, I do not want a sociopath or an abuser showing up). Prior to that I banish any spirits that would be detrimental. There is protection in place.

I have tried to build that 'relationship' long before doing a working, to demonstrate that I am not just 'using' them.

Well, what can I expect, if the relationship did not exist in a positive way when living, how could it be any different when they are dead!

I guess it is just not my path, as it was not when they lived. I extricated myself from that years ago, although the scars still exist, and act up now and then.

Can I find 'some' good memories - sure, but the bad far outweighs it.

Want the job done right, do it yourself. Relatives - bah, humbug.


You know, if ancestor work is not for you honestly I wouldn't worry about it. Some people have better family experiences than others and are more predisposed to this sort of work. It certainly doesn't make you any less of a witch if ancestor work is not something you want to pursue - but I know you don't need me to tell you that. :)

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#24 Michele

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:11 AM

The ancestor work you describe is very different than anything I've ever done. When I work with and communicate with my ancestors, it is me inviting them, specifically, to communicate with me and to continue a relationship we had while they were alive, or in the case of ones I didn't meet while they were alive, to develop a realationship with them. It is very specific, I know when they speak to me, it's not the same as those impulses that seem to come from other places that I pay attention to but am not sure of their origin, it is specific communication. Sometimes I ask them for help, but that's not the focus of my communications with them.

Since we're both saying 'ancestor communication', but describing very different things, I thought it might be good to point out the difference for others reading this thread. The 'group pool' you speak of that exists internally in you is intriguing and I respect that this is your experience, but it's a foreign concept to me, very different from the communication with dead ancestors that I have experience in.


That is interesting - I thinnk it is a very good idea for others to see and know of different ways of reception and experiences, as not all will be the same especially as we do not all follow the same path or way of working!

M

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#25 LdyShalott

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:17 PM

I have tried different approaches, and I have been most cordial, along with offerings, payment (blood, water, food, alcohol, etc.), but each time, the working goes south ie. the working does not 'work',and I do not feel any warm fuzzy feelings of contact.

When I rely on myself to draw the raw powers, make a sacrifice (my blood), the working is successful.

How many times does one have to go down a street to find a house, but does not find it because it simply is not there. I really have to stop trying this street. M, mentioned the Beloved Dead, but it looks like I do not have any. I invite any spirits/ancestors that are beneficial to me, the success of my working (after all, I do not want a sociopath or an abuser showing up). Prior to that I banish any spirits that would be detrimental. There is protection in place.

I have tried to build that 'relationship' long before doing a working, to demonstrate that I am not just 'using' them.

Well, what can I expect, if the relationship did not exist in a positive way when living, how could it be any different when they are dead!

I guess it is just not my path, as it was not when they lived. I extricated myself from that years ago, although the scars still exist, and act up now and then.

Can I find 'some' good memories - sure, but the bad far outweighs it.

Want the job done right, do it yourself. Relatives - bah, humbug.


If its not for you, well... its not for you. I wouldn't focus to much time or energy on something that doesnt suit me or my path. As Aloe said, doesnt make you any less of a witch, but you already know that truth. I am not one who believes just because someone was a relative in this life , they are automatically an "ancestor".. sometimes, oft times... a relation is nothing more than DNA. As a science/medical person, I fully understand the significance of DNA and genetic imprinting, but ancestor work requires relationship, and no amount of macromolecules can ensure that connection. Some of my strongest connections are with spirits not of my "blood".

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Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.  T.P.

In order to understand the living.. you have to commune with the dead..
You are a tiny little soul carrying around a corpse.-- Epictetus
All experience is an arch wherethrough gleams that untravelled world whose margin fades for ever and for ever when I move.

 


#26 Autumn Moon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 05:14 PM

Thank you all for your considerate support!

Aloe, your experience is more what I thought it would be like. As Michele said about impulses, I do get those a lot, but do not know where they originate from as well. LdyShalott, I am more than open to commune with spirits not of may ancestral blood, as long as we get along.

I had lived in a very disturbingly haunted house. Maybe this has created a blockage, or unconscious reflex defense to a spirit(s) entering my space.

I guess I have been reading about having these connections, and getting help when you need it, perhaps extra power, and I thought it might be nice to have someone in my corner so to speak for a change. But, something must be wrong, because as mentioned, when I do try to build this and to have spirits participate in my working, the working fizzles.

My workings have their intended effect when I just draw on raw powers and make a sacrifice (so I do not pay later in a way I might not like). My line of thought is if I am taking something, I should give something in return.

Who knows, maybe if I do make a connection, they will be bothering me too much instead of the other way round, LOL.

I agree with you all, as long as what I do works, it should not matter very much about being connected.

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#27 LdyShalott

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 06:43 PM

Thank you all for your considerate support!
LdyShalott, I am more than open to commune with spirits not of may ancestral blood, as long as we get along.


Just wanted to clarify, I was more directing my comments in a general direction. Some people seem to believe a genetic relation equates a given ancestral connection. This has not been my experience.. :beerchug:

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Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.  T.P.

In order to understand the living.. you have to commune with the dead..
You are a tiny little soul carrying around a corpse.-- Epictetus
All experience is an arch wherethrough gleams that untravelled world whose margin fades for ever and for ever when I move.

 


#28 Jevne

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

Just wanted to clarify, I was more directing my comments in a general direction. Some people seem to believe a genetic relation equates a given ancestral connection. This has not been my experience.. :beerchug:


I agree, Ldy. When I refer to my Family, I am not necessarily referring to blood relations only. Not all of my 'beloved dead', to use Michele's term, are genetically related to me. In addition, I have genetic relatives, both living and dead, that I do not and would not cultivate a relationship with.

Jevne

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#29 Michele

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:02 PM

One can easily have adopted ancestors, and as they may well not be versed in legal terms, lol, that isn't referring to "legal adoption" of a child in this world.

M

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#30 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:19 PM

For me I suppose I am more Nordic in perspective to what is or is not family.  There is my blood lineage family and all my ancestors that contributed to my existence.  There are kith and Kin who are family and may share some blood lineage or no blood lineage but are part of the expanded aspects of family.  Sort of like the person who really is not related but you spend all your life calling them aunt, uncle, grammy, poppy, etc and recognize them as family.  Then there is regional family in that we are part of the same area and history and share a collective influence.

 

Offerings, celestial egg for example, is one means of establishing contact with the dead.  That is based upon the notion of life force within the egg and has many similar aspects in a lot of cultural and religious norms.From a Hellenic perspective beans are an acceptable offering as they were the food of the dead and contained the essence of the chthonic world seeing as many were grown beneath the ground or within a pod.  Blood is seen as a legitimate offering in many areas as it contains the life force and allows the shade of the dead to gain a temporary sense of being alive.

 

Contacting them many times in my opinion depends upon what you desire but also what they desire to be done.  It's like I have asked and asked for revelations from an ancestor to figure out where he came from.  I get visuals and some words but its a difficult connection.  Not because he doesn't want to help but he has been removed from humanity for so long that its difficult for him to express in such a limited notion.  It also points out that the dead do not continue to learn nor do they have access to the future or what shall or might be.  In fact I'd bet if you call on the dead and your getting in-sights into the future your not dealing with the deceased but a trickster spirit that is trying to convince you they are a deceased spirit. Paganism today seems to be heavily filled with this notion of asking the dead about the future and this enlightenment that is gained in death yet it seems illogical to me to even expect such knowledge to be theirs.   Their knowledge and experience is about the world in which they lived and existed.

 

I admit I am very suspect when dealing with the dead for you never truly know who they are.  You also never fully know if they are restless dead or content dead for want of a better term.  You also never know if they are aware of the physical world anymore.  In many ways I follow archaic Hellenic notions of the dead and how they are served, called and resolved.  It's like without proper rituals and offerings and such they have the potential to become trapped or ensnared.  Frequently one finds curse tablets that call upon ones restless ancestors to exact justice against the living for some slight against the family.  Being of Scottish / Irish ancestry and Clannish I can relate to that very well as it is still a common mountain folk perspective.

 

Another aspect that some might acknowledge is did the spirit evade capture.  To many when a person dies or is buried you look to the birds, especially sparrows at the funeral.  If the birds start to squawk and squeal then the birds did not capture the soul and it passed to whatever realm or place those dead go to.  Yet if the birds suddenly fly off and there is little to no sound then they got the departing spirit and it will be ripped and shredded as it tries to escape.  About the only exception to that is if the birds are crows or ravens if I recall correctly they are the messengers and can cross the boundaries and carry the soul directly across.  But all of that really maters to how people believe and what customs they have.


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#31 SachaX

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:56 AM

BUMP ----

 

Connecting/communicating with the ancestors/dead through divination. Thoughts? Experiences?

 

======

 

I am very big into Ancestry work. Your ancestors, your clan, your bood; all are important in the creation of you. Based on my background, not honoring your ancestors is a way to say you should not exist.

 

For me (and this is not any kind of universal truth for anyone else), I want to learn the lessons my ancestors have for me, to feel their protection, to feel as a part of them. I wish to be the strongest representative of my clan. If you think back to all of your ancestors through history and see who the most powerful of them were, how smart and dedicated they were, how much influence and honor they had. How respected and wise they were. I want to be HIM.

 

One of my favorite methods of communication is "the hot seat". You sit in a chair, you have people run around you with drums and noise makers creating a flurry around you, and you plead out loud for the help of your clan through the ages. I posted on another topic what particular phrasing I use. The energy level gets so high, and those running/walking around you are running into the spirits and feeling their presence, and flipping their hair, tapping them on the shoulders, and at a certain time everyone will stop because it is time when you know they are at peak saturation.

 

I ask them to stay with me, to whisper knowledge of old to me in my sleep, to help subtly shape my goals into positive ones. 

 

I don't think divination is the method to use for your ancestors, as they should be around more than just for a quick message.

 

EDIT: clarification added


Edited by SachaX, 01 September 2014 - 01:58 AM.

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#32 Autumn Moon

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:58 AM

I've said it before, just because they are your ancestors, does not automatically make them desirable to have around (some perhaps, but who are you gonna get is the question).

 

I want to be myself. I'm not into hero worship.


Edited by Autumn Moon, 01 September 2014 - 05:05 AM.

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#33 Nikki

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:41 PM

I agree with you, AM. 


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#34 SachaX

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:52 PM

I've said it before, just because they are your ancestors, does not automatically make them desirable to have around (some perhaps, but who are you gonna get is the question).

 

I want to be myself. I'm not into hero worship.

---

 

I would like to understand you better on this. Especially the hero worship part.

 

Let's say one of your ancestors was a real bad person in life (murder ect) or a great aunt lucinda known as the ever judging christian.

When they cross 'the veil and the great divide' would they hold on to their same beliefs and still judge you from beyond the grave, or to try to harm you?

 

From my cultural background, it does not matter what quarrels you had with your clan in life, they are looking upon your actions in your life, and the great divide has taught them about the greatness and precious life. They want to help their kin succeed.

 

I have christian relatives from my mother's side, who did not do the old ways, but they still come around. For all of their holier than thou "i'm going to heaven to rejoyce in the lord" they still stand around me. Guess maybe they took a weekend pass from heaven, or they are not in heaven to begin with.

 

Anyway, I don't know what cultural history you have. Perhaps you didn't grow up in believing the powers of your ancestors, and why it matters to connect with them. It sure seems you have tried to bring them about and the practice does not resonate with you enough that it is of high importance to you.

 

No one says you can't be a witch if you don't do this. Whatever methods you use to go down your path is specific to you and is right for you.

I was just hoping that others who do call in their ancestors, what way they do it and what it all means to them, That is the reason for the bumb instead of me making a new topic.


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#35 Belwenda

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:12 PM

I think the whole ancestor thing is a lost leader; RIP is my motto.

 If they want to visit that's one thing but I don't call on them for help; As I believe in reincarnaton I'm not so sure that they aren't right next to me:)


Edited by Belwenda, 01 September 2014 - 06:13 PM.

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#36 RoseRed

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:33 PM

Michele reminds me of my Grandmother.  She is the head of her family and she runs it how she see's fit.  She will be one hell of a Matriarch someday.

 

 

 

 

When it comes to things with my Mother - my Grandmother is still the same way.  It doesn't matter that she's dead.  She's not done yet.   


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#37 Izzie

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 01:35 PM

I believe I'm getting ancestors from a few generations back, but I've discovered that my guides do answer me quite a bit as well.
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#38 SachaX

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:15 AM

I believe I'm getting ancestors from a few generations back, but I've discovered that my guides do answer me quite a bit as well.

---

 

Would any of your guides be any of your ancestors?


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#39 Izzie

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:57 AM

---
 
Would any of your guides be any of your ancestors?


Pendulum says no. Maybe I need to specify ancestors of blood relation, etc.

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Know thyself means this, that you get acquainted with what you know, and what you can do.- Menander

#40 Autumn Moon

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:45 AM

---

 

I would like to understand you better on this. Especially the hero worship part.

 

Let's say one of your ancestors was a real bad person in life (murder ect) or a great aunt lucinda known as the ever judging christian.

When they cross 'the veil and the great divide' would they hold on to their same beliefs and still judge you from beyond the grave, or to try to harm you?

 

From my cultural background, it does not matter what quarrels you had with your clan in life, they are looking upon your actions in your life, and the great divide has taught them about the greatness and precious life. They want to help their kin succeed.

___________

 

Many hold the belief/experience, that after a person passes over, they do not change much. Depending on their predilections, they may wish to harm you, hey may wish to help you, they may be precocious and help one time but are ambivalent the next time, or they may be adversarial/harmful at another time. 


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