'Old World Witchcraft' by Raven Grimassi

[Aloe]

I didn't think that was what he or Michle was saying, thanks for clarifying! I still don't quite get it but one day I will pick up the book and it might make more sense. It's the use of "forest or woodland" because not all places have either that is throwing me off.

 

Edited to add: really this is just bringing up something I have been thinking on lately, not so much related to this book. I just need to figure out how to articulate it so I can bring it up on another thread...

 

Like Michelle mentioned, I could just be interpreting in the way that suits me. lol But the entire earth was at one time all 'wild' or 'woodlands', so it never occurred to me to think that he might mean just Europe. The book is mainly focused on a witch's connection with plant spirits, and plants are everywhere. Deserts and such might not have forests, but there is still plant life.

[sarasuperid]

Although I live in a place surrounded by woods myself. I have visited places surround by desert wilds or surrounded by the sea. And in those places the different kinds of wild have their own otherness as do the people who can live in those wilds for long periods before stopping by civilization for a short stay before the sea, sand or trees call them home. While many a magic user all powerful and worthy of respect are purely of the city, there is something about the wild and the witch that seem insperable to me. And the more I study the craft and grow in my craft the more the woods call to me and the more I answer the call.

[Aloe]

Although I live in a place surrounded by woods myself. I have visited places surround by desert wilds or surrounded by the sea. And in those places the different kinds of wild have their own otherness as do the people who can live in those wilds for long periods before stopping by civilization for a short stay before the sea, sand or trees call them home. While many a magic user all powerful and worthy of respect are purely of the city, there is something about the wild and the witch that seem insperable to me. And the more I study the craft and grow in my craft the more the woods call to me and the more I answer the call.

 

Makes sense. I've never visited a desert area, but I grew up in the hills surrounded by wild woodlands that had not been developed with no neighbors for miles. The energy of the gulf coast is very different with all the sand, sea, and palm trees, but just as vivid.

[Thornblooded]

I didn't think that was what he or Michle was saying, thanks for clarifying! I still don't quite get it but one day I will pick up the book and it might make more sense. It's the use of "forest or woodland" because not all places have either that is throwing me off.

 

Edited to add: really this is just bringing up something I have been thinking on lately, not so much related to this book. I just need to figure out how to articulate it so I can bring it up on another thread...

 

 

I think he's talking about the early human experience as being forest dwellers in the distant past. I don't think he's talking about one isolated region on the earth. Later on he brings up European lore to illustrate points he's trying to make about witch beliefs and practices. But I think that Grimassi is talking about how life as forest dwellers shaped early beliefs about spirits, forces, and so forth. This all seems key to his depiction of "He of the Deep Wooded Places" as the sentient nature of the forest. So this is sort of "archetype" talk, I think. But that's my take on this and not something he specifically states.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Shadow Touch

[Brigid]

I think he's talking about the early human experience as being forest dwellers in the distant past. I don't think he's talking about one isolated region on the earth. Later on he brings up European lore to illustrate points he's trying to make about witch beliefs and practices. But I think that Grimassi is talking about how life as forest dwellers shaped early beliefs about spirits, forces, and so forth. This all seems key to his depiction of "He of the Deep Wooded Places" as the sentient nature of the forest. So this is sort of "archetype" talk, I think. But that's my take on this and not something he specifically states.

 

Sounds like he is talking about the "Green Man"..........I love the pictures drawn of this Pagan God.........I'm not what I would classify as Pagan, I am very drawn to the depiction of "him".

[Raina]

What a great thread, really interesting. I'm definitely going to order the book.

 

Aloe wrote - "While many a magic user all powerful and worthy of respect are purely of the city,there is something about the wild and the witch that seem inseparable to me. And the more I study the Craft and grow in my craft - the more the woods call to me and the more I answer the call" - this is so true, I can totally relate to this.

 

Raina

[Thornblooded]

Sounds like he is talking about the "Green Man"..........I love the pictures drawn of this Pagan God.........I'm not what I would classify as Pagan, I am very drawn to the depiction of "him".

 

I think the Green Man is a more personified figure than what Grimassi touches on (in terms of humanoid shape). "He of the Deep Wooded Places" is more primal, and Grimassi doesn't describe him resembling a Green Man. At a talk that Grimassi gave on the book, he mentioned that in the "mythos" the entity takes on the form of a stag (when he wishes to appear in a singular form). The antlers represent the branches of trees, which connects back to the sentient nature of the forest.

[Aloe]

What a great thread, really interesting. I'm definitely going to order the book.

 

Aloe wrote - "While many a magic user all powerful and worthy of respect are purely of the city,there is something about the wild and the witch that seem inseparable to me. And the more I study the Craft and grow in my craft - the more the woods call to me and the more I answer the call" - this is so true, I can totally relate to this.

 

Raina

 

Actually Michelle wrote that. ;)

[Michele]

Actually Michelle wrote that. ;)

 

No - I think it was SaraSuperId, lol. (And round and round and round it goes, and where it stops - nobody knows!!!!)

 

M

[sarasuperid]

Okay, I'll take credit if you ladies won't.

[Gramayr]

Downloaded the sample as well.. I can feel my 'oneclick' finger hovering but will have to force myself to read the rest of it first (have too many kindle books to go through as it is lol)

[Michele]

Although I agree with much of what he has put forth, I have hit a little area of "huh?" now. He brings up a system called "ABW" and it seems to be a (or his) personal system for walking the path. As he says "I first conceived of ABW along with author Stephanie Taylor in 2004" it sounds like it is a path, or tradition, he is inventing. And there is nothing wrong with inventing a path or tradition - that doesn't make it worng or invalid. If one thinks about it every eclectic witch has "invented" their own system, I just wasn't looking for it in this book and it seems to be a sudden diversion from some of the original theories he wanted to propose by writing the book - a complete jump from "this is how it might have been done and how witches might have been" to "this is one way you can do it now." From an informed book discussion different possibilities of the old craft to an instruction manuel. I don't think he went into much instruction, but he went into enough of it to make me skip that chapter and put the book down. Although he does state that ABW is one of many paths that does this, I don't see the reason for bothering to bring it up in such detail in the book unless he was also going to bring up in detail other "paths" in the book (which so far he has not). I just don't understand why he brought it up at all. But again, I also quit reading at that point. I will finish the book but for now that has put me off.

 

M

[Jevne]

Skimmed my way to Page 151 . . .

 

Was momentarily interested, based on the author's introduction implying that he was going in a new direction with this book, but I'm not seeing anything ground-breaking or enlightening here. Same ol' wicca stuff with a few Trad terms thrown in for good measure. Puts me off, personally, that the material is heavily influenced by Roman and/or judeo-christian interpretations of what Witches supposedly used to do. Get the impression that the author is trying to shove the round peg of Traditional Witchcraft into the square hole of wicca.

 

I pass.

[sarasuperid]

I did appreciate his approach on re-examining the academic material from a different point of view, but his restating of Cultus Sabbati, Feri, and Clan of Tubal Cain material was a little weird considering his premises. I will start working my way through the bibliography and chase down some of his source material.

 

However, reading the preview of the book did make it clear to me why Shadow Touch is so supportive of this material. It entirely matches her tradition at least what she has shared on TW. Shadow Touch, pardon me if it is too personal to ask, but it is evident that you are involved in one or more of Gramassi's traditions like ABW?

[Aloe]

My kindle says I've read 60% of it, nothing new so far. Some things I liked, some I didn't.

 

For people who think Margaret Murray's book was completely accurate or those that have been injected with SRW and the like, I can see a book like this from an author who's previously written about Wicca seeming "groundbreaking". Maybe it is in the context of his writings, but in the first half at least, there's nothing there that someone who's spent a significant amount of time and energy researching witch trials and the occult in general wouldn't know. Hell even just someone who's read a great deal of the threads here would know most of the information that's been presented so far.

[sarasuperid]

For those who would care to read a big chunk without buying the book, between the Amazon preview and this excerpt I think we get a bunch of the book: http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Old-World-Witchcraft-Book-Excerpt-Raven-Grimassi-10-01-2011.html . Usually these previews will give you a lot of the book and they stop just before the spells section. Which for me is funny because the spells section is the least important to me because I will write my own.

 

This community also has a lot of information on the book: http://www.wiccantogether.com/forum/topics/old-world-witchcraft?xg_source=activity written by one of his students (be warned that link is to a wicca community).

[thevioletsunflower]

I will start working my way through the bibliography and chase down some of his source material.

 

Bless you for having the time and energy to take that on!

 

 

I have been snooping around about ABW since Michele brought it up earlier and found a post on MysticWIcks about it in which Grimassi states:

 

Ash, Birch, and Willow is not Italian-based. It is intended to reflect the commonality of all European traditions that are based in "earth religion" and the like. ABW also ties in some of the contemporary elements that some people identify as "Wiccan" markers. But as an ol' timer in the Craft from the 60s, I disagree with comments about what is exclusively Wiccan and what is Witchcraft. The lines are too blurred, in my opinion, to be able to say what is what with the risk of narrow vision.

 

I was also able to find an outline of the ABW course material here- at least for this specific course offered.

 

My question now is how much of ABW material is in this book? Was it just mentioned in passing, maybe he went into it a bit and then moves on, or does it all sort of run parellel? I don't have any interest in ABW so that would be a turn-off for me in the book. I just want to make sure before I buy it, otherwise I will wait until it is a few bucks used. Yes, I am that cheap.

[Aloe]

 

 

My question now is how much of ABW material is in this book? Was it just mentioned in passing, maybe he went into it a bit and then moves on, or does it all sort of run parellel? I don't have any interest in ABW so that would be a turn-off for me in the book. I just want to make sure before I buy it, otherwise I will wait until it is a few bucks used. Yes, I am that cheap.

 

One chapter is all I believe. At least in the first 60% of the book.

[thevioletsunflower]

This community also has a lot of information on the book: http://www.wiccantog...source=activity written by one of his students (be warned that link is to a wicca community).

 

This is the same review I offered earlier in the thread only on a different forum. It was written by Rasenna over at MysticWicks who is a friend of ST's ("spirit sister", IIRC). I think it's important to note that Rasenna is close to RG in that she once helped him in his work. It stands to reason that she would be a part of his tradition or at least think/practice very similarly. I'm not sure how much I can get out of her review based on that. I mean, of course she is going to see certain benefits if the book is based on her already held beliefs and practices. But what about for folks who aren't involved with ABW or traditions like that? Those are the reviews I am waiting for and am glad to see beginning to trickle in.

[thevioletsunflower]

One chapter is all I believe. At least in the first 60% of the book.

 

Thanks! Did you find it heavy-handed or bothersome, Aloe? PM me if you'd like.

[Thornblooded]

However, reading the preview of the book did make it clear to me why Shadow Touch is so supportive of this material. It entirely matches her tradition at least what she has shared on TW. Shadow Touch, pardon me if it is too personal to ask, but it is evident that you are involved in one or more of Gramassi's traditions like ABW?

 

I practice an Old Ways form, but not ABW. Grimassi's book is the first to bring up elements of the Old Ways path, and that excites me. As to ABW, it's a little too formal for me. BTW - someone stated that there is a chapter on ABW in Grimassi's book. Actually, it appears in chapter three and only occupies the last third portion of the chapter. But the chapter itself doesn't focus on ABW.

 

By way of correction, since you don't know my tradition (as it's not been discussed), I'm puzzled as to how you can evaluate it as entirely matching Grimassi's material.

 

In his book, Grimassi talks about meeting "Old Ways witches" and the book is based upon their beliefs. We exist outside of Grimassi, but I for one appreciate seeing the Ways starting to come out in print.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Shadow Touch

[Thornblooded]

This is the same review I offered earlier in the thread only on a different forum. It was written by Rasenna over at MysticWicks who is a friend of ST's ("spirit sister", IIRC). I think it's important to note that Rasenna is close to RG in that she once helped him in his work. It stands to reason that she would be a part of his tradition or at least think/practice very similarly. I'm not sure how much I can get out of her review based on that. I mean, of course she is going to see certain benefits if the book is based on her already held beliefs and practices. But what about for folks who aren't involved with ABW or traditions like that? Those are the reviews I am waiting for and am glad to see beginning to trickle in.

 

 

I do know Rasenna, and practiced with her some years ago in an eclectic way. We are "sisters" in the spiritual sense, but not in being of the same coven or tradition. She used to work for Grimassi but isn't in much contact with him these days, or so she says. I do know that she's not a member of ABW. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the book, but ok.

[thevioletsunflower]

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the book, but ok.

Perspective. If she is close to or a part of ABW or something like it she will get more out of the book than someone who has no interest in it IF the book goes that route. Reviews are great but who the reviewer is is also important. From her perspective things are going to look differently then from Michele's or Jevne's because of the difference in their beliefs and practices.

[Brigid]

Well, I will say that after reading all of these posts and going to the links provided by Maggie, I don't think I will every have to purchase this book!!

 

It seems to me that RG is attempting to combine a few traditions into one.

 

Fairy lore/Wicca combined with "historical" perspectives.

 

It surely isn't Traditional Witchcraft. (not that such a claim has been made actually the contrary)

 

"In Old World witchcraft there is no embracing of Lucifer, Cain, or Herodias as any connective lineage. These currents (or threads connecting them) may appear in what is often called "traditional witchcraft" and certainly do appear in modern Luciferian witchcraft. The latter is often steeped in imagery reminiscent of the Church's historic depiction of diabolical witchcraft. In contrast with traditional witchcraft and Luciferian witchcraft, Old World witchcraft does not share any roots to Old Testament or New Testament connections with witchcraft (real or imagined).

HUH???

I haven't fully grasped the ABW concept, but if I had to guess, (which I do at this point). It would seem that he is attempting to form a new branch of Neo Paganism.

 

Probably because he left Wicca, BUT that is where his base is and to move on without this base would not be a profitable endever.

 

This is all well and good for people that need to follow another's path, but I like to follow my own.

[Aloe]

I practice an Old Ways form, but not ABW. Grimassi's book is the first to bring up elements of the Old Ways path, and that excites me.

 

Which elements are you referring to? I'm curious because I haven't really seen anything in there yet that I haven't read about or heard of before. Granted I'm not finished reading it yet..

 

 

For those thinking about buying the book - I don't feel cheated and I'm not sorry I bought it, but I enjoy comparative study and reading of other people's ways. If you don't enjoy that kind of thing, or don't want to hear RG's perspectives specifically, spare yourself. At the end of the day, it's just a book. :thumbsup: