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#1 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 07:20 PM

Hi,

I am hoping that with the wide range of people here that someone may be able to help me find a tradition which aligns with what I believe. I wish not to bore you with the long story (I am 36, this was not over night) of how my beliefs came to be, or how they came to me, but I will say that they are not from a source I have been able to find at least singularly, and they were formed before I read any texts. Hence, why I am asking for help. I will make this as brief as possible. Please, do not take all my terminological literal. Somethings, I really have a lack of better terms for, but, hopefully within my descriptions you will understand what I am referring to. This is a bit of a long read and if you chose not to read it I understand.

I do not believe in the good vs evil thing. I believe these were concepts created by the King who had the bible created to control people. Therefore, I don't believe in the pure opposing forces of angels and demons as they are presented in said book. That said I do not fully subscribe to evolution, either. I believe that there was interference in the process and maybe some where not even part of that chain, but not from little green or grey man either. Maybe, further in my beliefs a small picture might be created for you.

I believe there are for a lack of a better term layers of different beings and worlds which can be accessed by those whom are awake to them. It seems some feel theory need to use different methods to access them, thou, I personally am against the use of drugs and harsh psychodrama to access them. That is probably highly do to the fact I don't need that and feel like you put yourself at risk using them. No offense is meant or intended by this. I seem to have some odd, intense, reaction to even the mildest things like pot. My reaction seems to go far beyond what I have come to learn as typical for most. On the psychodrama, I don't need the intensity of it that I have read about. I wish not to insult anyone, I just lack that need. I guess my point with this is I need something more subtle.

Anyhow, back on track. In these layers/worlds I believe there are beings of both creation and knowledge. I also believe in spirits of this whom have pasted. Some stay, many have a layer of their own (a completely human type spirit). Some chose to continue to learn (reincarnation) and some take their places on different layers and can be different beings (but they were once these beings anyway they chose to be here for some purpose but must return to whence they came). Sometimes I believe there is a mixing of these things, but it isn't typical. In this I would like to point out when it comes to those human spirits that have past... dust is dust and mold is mold. "Orbs" are not what I am talking about.

I also believe their are nature type spirits. Not the Hollywood type, thou. I don't believe they are out to trap us. They are beings of knowledge and do want for human companionship at times. But, I don't believe they harm us or are succubus and the alike sucking out our lives. But, I also don't believe that they spend all day fixing nature and partying either. I think they are there and share of knowledge of nature energy, sometimes warn us and sometimes push us to new developments. I don't believe in as many types as I have heard about, thou, maybe, that is my own ignorance. Maybe, I can only connect with a few. This isn't meant to be insulting in any case. I would never trump or scoff at another views different to mine. These are only my personal ways of believing and I have yet to open every door.

I believe there is yet another group of more for the lack of better terms dark beings. Not demons out to punish us. But ones more of the creation factor. They hold deep knowledge of most everything created both physical and metaphysical. These are the where the powers of creation threw "chaos" are held. They are fairly scarey creatures, do to the fact, they do not resemble us and hold such strong energy. They stay in they dark usually just out of sight. They are not demons, they don't possess you nor do they serve as a punisher, nor do they wish to end our world. They helped create it why would they destroy it? They also like us to some degree but do not feel everyone deserves their knowledge or the ability to tap into their powers. They don't serve anything. They do as they please. They can take away and they can give. Fear is an extremely high energy source, much like creation. They don't feed on it per say rather aren't opposed to keeping it cycled. I can't properly describe it. They don't run out to spook us rather when you feel that tension of overwhelming fear in the dark, one of them could be near. If it isn't a bit of touch over from the human spirit realm. They can and will interact with us on different levels. Enough on that.

Then and these are not in order so you know. There is the what has been termed the "aliens" I guess for alack of better terms. Not the little green or grey dudes flying around in ufos. Rather they are the knowledge givers, and have had a direct impact on human kind and the advancement of it. They can appear as solid beings but are more "celestial" might fit? They don't slaughter cows or abduct us, ha ha! Rather I think these beings are the ones that thought us math, language, advanced building, and such. I believe these are the ones the myths of Atlantis and angels come from. They never had a city on earth, nor do they serve a God to protect us. Rather they are that gave us that "light", "divine" or whatever you want to call it. But they aren't the same they aren't all loving and gooey. They gave and so they can take away as well. They gave us the higher knowledge and helped us become what we are now both physically and mentally, but not all came from them either, if that makes any sense. I think who we are is somehow connected to what realm we meaning our "souls" come from. Sometimes our physical body shows that.. especially in those more whom are more connected with that side.

Anyhow, enough on all that. This has gotten far too long. But, these are the things I believe and are what we can tap into. The ones who are enlightened, anyhow. All these things are equally important from using herbs and being in touch with nature to the creation beings/forces. I don't believe this is an eclectic view. I believe it is an all in one and maybe I just can't express properly the fine details of how it is all interconnected. They are separate but not. Tapping into one means tapping into all. It is all a balance, no evil or no good. It just is. All creation is a unified thing but they don't hang out or torment each other. It is somehow all one. I can not describe it properly. Maybe, this is why I struggle so much? I feel there is some tradition out there that is all of this and I fail to find it cause I fail to know how to make it all relate properly.

Anyhow, if you took the time to read all of this, Thank You!

If you know what I am talking about, how it is all connected and a tradition that is this, please help me find it.

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#2 Mountain Witch

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:17 PM

You've stated what sort of entities you believe are out there but not what you're looking to get out of the 'tradition' you seek. You might think on this: if you can't find a 'tradition' that matches whatever you believe, make your own.



This has gotten far too long.


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#3 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 09:31 PM

You've stated what sort of entities you believe are out there but not what you're looking to get out of the 'tradition' you seek. You might think on this: if you can't find a 'tradition' that matches whatever you believe, make your own.





Yup.


Thank you for the reply. All I really seek for this is tying these glimpses together, gaining a clearer picture and understanding. Without that I am not sure it holds any substance and is nothing more then mind games from within.

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#4 Michele

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:48 PM

On the psychodrama, I don't need the intensity of it that I have read about. I wish not to insult anyone, I just lack that need. I guess my point with this is I need something more subtle.

Anyhow, if you took the time to read all of this, Thank You!


1) You're welcome, lol.

2) If by psychodrama you mean "drugs" you do not have to go that route if you do not wish to. If by Psychodrama Intensity you are referring to the intense escatic interaction with "other" that might not be up to what YOU (think you)need, lol. When it comes down to it, it is not always about us and what WE want and not everything will be by your consent so be sure you are wiling to take that risk if you choose to walk that path. Know what you are willing to risk, what you are willing to loose, and what you want to gain.

3) You may want to look into the lore of the Watchers from some of things you wrote it seems it may be of interest to you.

M

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#5 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:38 AM

1) You're welcome, lol.

2) If by psychodrama you mean "drugs" you do not have to go that route if you do not wish to. If by Psychodrama Intensity you are referring to the intense escatic interaction with "other" that might not be up to what YOU (think you)need, lol. When it comes down to it, it is not always about us and what WE want and not everything will be by your consent so be sure you are wiling to take that risk if you choose to walk that path. Know what you are willing to risk, what you are willing to loose, and what you want to gain.

3) You may want to look into the lore of the Watchers from some of things you wrote it seems it may be of interest to you.

M


I will look for information on the Watchers, Thank You! Is there a good source for this?

By psychodrama I wasn't trying to use it is a vulgar term. What I was referring to was, well, for example, I remember seeing a pic of Crowley wearing odd ritual clothes and a hat with his hand postured it seemed to me at that time while, there was possibly some good works in his book. The camber/ritual area, dress, and some methods were too much. Can I leave that there? It has been along time since I read that stuff and I don't want to mispeak about the things, cause my memory isn't 100% clear on it,anymore. I am not trying to insult. I think I am trying to say the more visual aspects of it and maybe some of the methodology. It has been along time :P I understand these are things to get your mind ready and active for the ritual/ceremony or whatever you want to call it. Right now, I just don't feel I need those steps to get there. Maybe, not making such distinctive separation isn't healthy?


But, you brought a good point in that these are things that I may need to open myself up to. See, right now I feel threw scrying, astral projection, symbols, energy work, much of the same desired effect can be achieved. Maybe, add some focus objects if you are out for specific tasks that might need to be represented. I can see some herbal use for healing and some ritual stuff as well. But, hey I could be wrong, and I am willing to try understand and and maybe open up a bit more to it. I don't know or even want to claim I understand everything. That is why I am here to learn, grow, and make sense of all of this.

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#6 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 01:04 AM

I will look for information on the Watchers, Thank You! Is there a good source for this?

By psychodrama I wasn't trying to use it is a vulgar term. What I was referring to was, well, for example, I remember seeing a pic of Crowley wearing odd ritual clothes and a hat with his hand postured it seemed to me at that time while, there was possibly some good works in his book. The camber/ritual area, dress, and some methods were too much. Can I leave that there? It has been along time since I read that stuff and I don't want to mispeak about the things, cause my memory isn't 100% clear on it,anymore. I am not trying to insult. I think I am trying to say the more visual aspects of it and maybe some of the methodology. It has been along time :P I understand these are things to get your mind ready and active for the ritual/ceremony or whatever you want to call it. Right now, I just don't feel I need those steps to get there. Maybe, not making such distinctive separation isn't healthy?


But, you brought a good point in that these are things that I may need to open myself up to. See, right now I feel threw scrying, astral projection, symbols, energy work, much of the same desired effect can be achieved. Maybe, add some focus objects if you are out for specific tasks that might need to be represented. I can see some herbal use for healing and some ritual stuff as well. But, hey I could be wrong, and I am willing to try understand and and maybe open up a bit more to it. I don't know or even want to claim I understand everything. That is why I am here to learn, grow, and make sense of all of this.


Sorry, to double post but I wanted to add this. Maybe, since I didn't need to learn the scrying, astral projection, energy work and symbols came to me. I missed the needing to put myself in those states with intense intention. Therefore, missing the separation and needed build up and closing? These things were natural to me, so I lack the methodology that I quite possibly need.

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#7 Michele

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 03:15 AM

Crowley was a ceremonial magician, and taken literaly his rituals have a lot of "ceremony" to them. There are some things in ritual, I personally believe, that should not be changed and some things that can be changed depending on the nature of the ritual. What path you follow would also be dependant on what you seek - power, knowledge, evolution of the soul, wholeness, etc. Know thyself first and what you seek - then you have an idea of what to look for in the path you tread :-)

Ceremonail magic can be quite different from some forms of the craft, other forms are more ritualistic in their workings. Know the meaning of each tool or symbol used in a ceremony or ritual and then you can decide if it alligns to your goals on the path and that should also tell you the virtue (or lack thereof) of that tool's way of working for you. The path is personal to each person who steps upon it, and the stepping itself is an initiation as is the entirety of the path walked. Who answers the door will depend upon which door you knock and your ability to discern the true nature of the one who answers. The path twists and bends and you may change your road many times, but changing the path traveled is not necessarily leaving one's path. All things teach us if we let them.

M

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#8 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 04:50 AM

Thank You, Michele. I looked into your suggestion of the watchers, I found the christian beliefs did not align with mine nor did the Italian. But the small amount I read with the Italian was far closer.

As far as the use of rituals and finding what works for me. I understand this is something that no one can give to me. It is a self journey. This is repeated on this forum so much that I can only see it as a severe frustration for most. However, that part of it isn't what I truly seek at this point. I feel I work well with that aspect of it and that I maybe should do some re readings simply to refresh and see how I feel now. Also, continue that search. Take what I can, go with it and adapt it to what works to me for a stronger methodology.

Right now, my biggest interest is finding a home for everything I believe. A link to a tradition. A basis for my beliefs. I don't feel I made them up and I am sure others have felt this way before. I feel that all these beings in one way or another are a type and level of Fae. Which I am now discovering seem to have many names. I continually seem to keep running into the Wiccian views of them, and that is not how I view them. There is way to much do good and happy trails in Wicca. I would think that the who, what, where and why of these beings wouldn't be something one must assemble for themselves. Rather something that is a history that you merely need to find if you weren't raised by family to already believe in such things. You would think, I would have some strong tradition as I am first born American to the Welsh and English on my mothers side, but, I didn't know my grandparents well and they were Protestant. My father, I don't know but I am Norweign to that end. I know little of the true Crafts of these areas. They seem to be so drown in Wicca that it is hard to find something seperate from them, that isn't in childrens fairytales.

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#9 Pye

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 09:25 AM

Some great suggestions already made here but I thought I'd just post a link to the concise collection of info and reading suggestions by Sarah Lawless on the Forest Grove site, may be something of interest for you.
Faerie Traditions-Forest Grove

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#10 Michele

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:07 PM

Thank You, Michele. I looked into your suggestion of the watchers, I found the christian beliefs did not align with mine nor did the Italian. But the small amount I read with the Italian was far closer.

As far as the use of rituals and finding what works for me. I understand this is something that no one can give to me. It is a self journey. This is repeated on this forum so much that I can only see it as a severe frustration for most. However, that part of it isn't what I truly seek at this point. I feel I work well with that aspect of it and that I maybe should do some re readings simply to refresh and see how I feel now. Also, continue that search. Take what I can, go with it and adapt it to what works to me for a stronger methodology.

Right now, my biggest interest is finding a home for everything I believe. A link to a tradition. A basis for my beliefs. I don't feel I made them up and I am sure others have felt this way before. I feel that all these beings in one way or another are a type and level of Fae. Which I am now discovering seem to have many names. I continually seem to keep running into the Wiccian views of them, and that is not how I view them. There is way to much do good and happy trails in Wicca. I would think that the who, what, where and why of these beings wouldn't be something one must assemble for themselves. Rather something that is a history that you merely need to find if you weren't raised by family to already believe in such things. You would think, I would have some strong tradition as I am first born American to the Welsh and English on my mothers side, but, I didn't know my grandparents well and they were Protestant. My father, I don't know but I am Norweign to that end. I know little of the true Crafts of these areas. They seem to be so drown in Wicca that it is hard to find something seperate from them, that isn't in childrens fairytales.


Hey... how deep did you look? The Watchers are recorded in Christianity by Christians, but then again, so were the witch trials. Much of European/English lore of witches is tied in to the watchers including many stories of the Fae. It is another story told many times, don't discount the story by the talent or twisting of the story-teller. One of the things (I found) most interesting about Paul Huson's "Mastering Witchcraft" (which is a very good book, and although it seems just like a basic "how to" there is lore in there which I think goes deeper than the basic "how to") he does mention the lore of the Witches' God/s and the Watchers, etc., and the relations of such lore to the fae. Who are the fae? Where did they come from? Perhaps see if you can find some tie-ins. Again, this is only one path of many but you'd said something (I can't remember what now) in your original post which made me think you were looking for something deeper than spell-casting and "mundane" power. To me it is where so much ties in together from the differnet break-offs of the path - demons, "guides" or angels, gods, etc. People have broken these things down into many different paths but if you are looking for an actual source then look for the similiarites in all paths and you may get closer to some Truths. That which repeats itself - whether under the guise of "good" or "bad" - is repeated most likely due to a grain of truth. It is just how different paths and/or religions interpret it. Gods and Goddesses are assimilated and "morphed" into the reigning religion. But the grain of truth remains. Trace them back if it is divinity and/or truth you seek.

M

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#11 Michele

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:12 PM

Some great suggestions already made here but I thought I'd just post a link to the concise collection of info and reading suggestions by Sarah Lawless on the Forest Grove site, may be something of interest for you.
Faerie Traditions-Forest Grove


Although I had heard of SL I had not seen that site... good link P!

M

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#12 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 04:02 PM

this is only one path of many but you'd said something (I can't remember what now) in your original post which made me think you were looking for something deeper than spell-casting and "mundane" power.

M


I am and I am very happy you were able to get that! I think I am just overly tired and overly enthusiastic to be talking to others that aren't hung up on the trappings that I am maybe forgetting to look at things. It is hard to find websites, because I don't know where to look, that don't keep rolling me back to Wicca. That is not where I want to be. I have read books from many authors, but most where published by Lywellyn as that was what was carried by my local book store. Books by Buckland, Ravenwolf, Cunningham, Chic and Sandra Tabatha Cicerco, Donald Tyson, even LaVey and the fabled Necronomicon before I knew it was a work of fiction that was probably one of my first books. I eventually had the companion book to it as well that I haven't found since, but that had alligators on the cover. I did start reading one of Crowley's books at the very being, but I never completed it as the more I learned about him the more I couldn't get past his personality. I was young thou and it was one of my first ex posers. I also kept running into some extremely feminist books. Many more, but those are the first that come to mind. All had something some that was good within them, however small or great. But none contained the one definitive ringing of this is it, by and within itself. Instead of being smart and keeping what worked, I was foolish and young enough to just rid of the books and keep nothing from them.

It has been many, many years since I have search this path do to that frustration. I had been on the journey along time and I didn't have the money to keep spending on books that didn't give me what I felt to be true. But, I was young then and didn't think you could formulate your own ways of doing things. I have been out of the path for along time, so there is much vagueness there. I want to reenter this world and do it right and not be restricted by the wiccian rede's and such. I believe there is an inherent darkness within the craft and not everything is all happy go lucky. There has to be a balance and the balance is hard to find or it has been so for me. I find I work best in the dark and whatever lays within it. Thou, for the things like healing, some scrying and communion, and financial gains in life (I still need to figure that one out, ha ha! Thou, for some reason I have a real hard time asking for such a mundane thing and probably won't) it doesn't seem productive as it holds its own energy.

Thank you for the suggestions thus far! I will definitely spend more time reading, Hopefully I can find good sources on them.

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#13 Michele

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 05:00 PM

The books I have found of most use are by Robert Cochrane, Evan John Jones, Andrew Chumbley, Michael Howard, Nigel Jackson, Nigel Pearson, Daniel Schulkie (sp?), Gemma Gary, Paul Huson, Carlos Ginzburg, Emma Wilby... I'm sure there's more but that comes to the top of my head, lol. But be prepared that some of these books will have dual-faith overtones that if you are not divorced from the dualistic nature of religion you will automaticaly write off. If you really want to understand, even if to just understand whether it is or isn't for you, you will have to be able to block out preconceived notions and look past some Xtian references to what is hidden behind them. For expample, some books may refer to vampyres and due to cultural training and Hollywood movies one will laugh and write them off as bunk, but think deeper. Look to the symbology not to Hollywood. What is "bitten"? What has an exchange of "blood" (and what is the symbology of blood - blood is made in the bone, and what is the symbology of bone?), and once "bitten" then gains the power to walk unseen, to see and hear what others can't, to drink of the spiritual esences, to "never die". What is to be the "non dead" other than to walk in both worlds - in the physical world AND in the mundane physical world and the same time? Can an awakened witch do the same? So if you read a book that refers to vampyres like they're real, know they might be referring to the symbology of the witch, or a shade or a spirit and not the Hollywood vampyre. Same with any symbology you come across in the books so don't chuck anything out as bunk beofre you really understand the deeper references behind the culturally accepted meanings. When looking at Watcher or angel symbology you might look to who first taught humans of witch-ways. And yes, in some Itialian it was Diana/Lucifer/Aradia, you can also look to other forms and tellings of the same tale. Where there's smoke there's usually a fire (or at least a good Bar B Q, lol)...

M

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#14 Guest_Elfyd_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 05:18 PM

this is an interesting thread, even if only to tap into M's insights and suggestions.

Somewherebetween ---- You mentioned the "Italian" Watchers, by this do you mean of the Stregheria?

Efl

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 05:35 PM

Thank you much for your time! You have given me much to think about and maybe I have taken somethings to literally. I hadn't thought to look deeper. You would think it would be a path paved or so I thought, anyway, haha! This puts a new light on things and I appreciate it. I have much to start reading. I have enjoyed our conversations and hope as I continue that we will continue to communicate.
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#16 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 05:52 PM

this is an interesting thread, even if only to tap into M's insights and suggestions.

Somewhereinbetween ---- You mentioned the "Italian" Watchers, by this do you mean of the Stregheria?

Efl


Yes, I believe so. I have read there are two different branches with much the same name. One is supposed to be the older pre-christian. And if I interpreted correctly one is incorporated with folk tales and christian or Catholic views. Which witch is which I don't recall, ha ha! Here is a link http://www.stregheria.com/what.htm

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 06:22 PM

Some great suggestions already made here but I thought I'd just post a link to the concise collection of info and reading suggestions by Sarah Lawless on the Forest Grove site, may be something of interest for you.
Faerie Traditions-Forest Grove


Thank you for your link! It is interesting and I am still reading various links it is taking me to.

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#18 Guest_Somewherebetween_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 06:09 PM

Thank you for your link! It is interesting and I am still reading various links it is taking me to.



You know, the greatest thing I am gaining from this site other then some good reading material. Is learning to stop doubting myself and abilities and that all I know/believe can never be found in one all bearing reading. I can't help what came to me, but I can nurture it and help it grow not by looking for all answers in a single book, but within. Reading, learning and trying new things is great and fine, even interesting, and is not a bad thing, but I ultimately hold my own key. Thanks for that! I am far from reading everything on the forums, I hope to be able to continue on a deeper level here, but what I have read thus far is very informative. I feel I have grown allot just gaining that confidence.

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#19 Brigid

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:13 PM

Crowley was a ceremonial magician, and taken literaly his rituals have a lot of "ceremony" to them. There are some things in ritual, I personally believe, that should not be changed and some things that can be changed depending on the nature of the ritual. What path you follow would also be dependant on what you seek - power, knowledge, evolution of the soul, wholeness, etc. Know thyself first and what you seek - then you have an idea of what to look for in the path you tread :-)

Ceremonail magic can be quite different from some forms of the craft, other forms are more ritualistic in their workings. Know the meaning of each tool or symbol used in a ceremony or ritual and then you can decide if it alligns to your goals on the path and that should also tell you the virtue (or lack thereof) of that tool's way of working for you. The path is personal to each person who steps upon it, and the stepping itself is an initiation as is the entirety of the path walked. Who answers the door will depend upon which door you knock and your ability to discern the true nature of the one who answers. The path twists and bends and you may change your road many times, but changing the path traveled is not necessarily leaving one's path. All things teach us if we let them.

M


Excellent advise as always Michelle!!! Your path is your own, you must seek within, I would suggest daily meditation!

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Ritualistic behaviour, though well-intentioned, possesses no significance or effectiveness unless its external prescription is matched by a personal, internal motivation of will and desire.

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 03:16 AM

Yes, I believe so. I have read there are two different branches with much the same name. One is supposed to be the older pre-christian. And if I interpreted correctly one is incorporated with folk tales and christian or Catholic views. Which witch is which I don't recall, ha ha! Here is a link http://www.stregheria.com/what.htm


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The older form is from the Etruscan period of the area. The Etruscans were a very spiritual people. full of mystery and lost custom, they had their own traditions and language, most of which was assimilated by Rome as the Romans gradually took over the city-states there in pre-Xtian times. Those mystical and folk traditions went underground (the original meaning for Pagan, Pagani, was aimed at the remaining Etruscan folk who maintained the lore) but it never really disappeared. And when Aradia appeared in the 14 century she reintroduced the spirit in the Pagani to promote the La Vaccia Religione (The Old Religion) again, this is what became known as Stregheria.

There is debate as to the actual form of Stregheria today, this is because of the influence of Charles Leyland's books, very many modern Stregheria I have talked to denounce his works as a distortion of the interpretation of Stregheria lore.

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Elf

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