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traditional witchcraft? or just doing things as you see fit?


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#41 Guest_atropa_*

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

What about a conflict between what you want to do or feel you should be doing and what your Tradition says you should do? What if your Tradition dictates that you should glue yellow daisies on wire wings and wear them with pink toe shoes and spandex while listening to heavy metal music(cracks me up!) but you don't want to do that. What happens now? Do you go against what your Trad dictates or break out the spandex?


If it were a part of a bargain between myself and my Tradition then I would do it, if it wasnt then I would ask why its needed, then I would make up my own mind and choose accordingly.

As far as dictatorships are concerned, no this is not for me either, I like my freedom too much and it isnt the best way of working where Witch is concerned.

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#42 nicalee

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:25 PM

First I thought I would say this is my second post on this forum. Some of the things I have been questioning for 20 years are finally answered. Why I could never "pick" a path is because it is split with my heritage. I have a witch who was burned in America in my family tree (there are questions as to if my line came from her or the mans second wife considering all I think it was the one who was burned many on that side of the family exhibit "gifts" of sorts but never use them (that I am am aware of). Another branch is the puritans from the Mayflower, the preacher to be exact (Elder William Brewster) yet another side was a Rector of Orsdall one of the more famous ones (William Denman) I am also 1/4 Norwegian so both the Celtic and Norse pantheons have always called to me, my ancestors have always called to me (to the point of doing family research to find out all of this stuff dating back to the 1600's).

Being in America in an area without any of those spirits and away from where my family primarily was I have added new things to my magickal works. Frankly sometimes I wing it and it works out just fine. My family is primarily in Wisconsin, they were farmers from my Great Grandparents back. They were attached to the land in a way I would never fully grasp, the land was their lively hood and provided everything to them. That explains why I am called to nature, but I am not in my "homeland" as it would be as I am first generation living almost their entire lives in Florida, yet the ancestors are calling.

I believe I invoked Mary the Witch when I finally got her full story. It touched me, I felt an immediate connection to her. (if you are so inclined she was named Mary Barnes and was burned in Hartford/Farmington Ct. Not Salem. There was no Witch hunt really in that area, only a very few were ever burned. The same jury that convicted Mary had released many the same day)

Thank you all for this thread, through your combined knowledge it has answered something that 20 years of searching has not. I see the pros and cons of all of the paths, but none seemed to be ME or MINE, that is because I am a mix of them and need to embrace that. I knew my magic worked without specifics of the rituals I read about, I was doing magic long before the internet and had no access to any information, yet it worked.

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#43 Lynn

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:47 PM

I have friends in a tradition that has a definite hierarchy within its structure and if the elders say "you must do such and such." then they must. Period. sometimes this pertains to their every day lives as well. Its an old old way, rich with their culture, and with tried and true methods concerning magic and workings, and so much more that I cannot get into here. Its been a personal dilemma for me. I do not like being told what to do. But this "way" calls to me. BUT it is also not time to decide, that will come later.
So it really depends. They have conflict often, what they want to do and what they have to do. And believe me, it is not easy.

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#44 Michele

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

I have friends in a tradition that has a definite hierarchy within its structure and if the elders say "you must do such and such." then they must. Period. sometimes this pertains to their every day lives as well. Its an old old way, rich with their culture, and with tried and true methods concerning magic and workings, and so much more that I cannot get into here. Its been a personal dilemma for me. I do not like being told what to do. But this "way" calls to me. BUT it is also not time to decide, that will come later.
So it really depends. They have conflict often, what they want to do and what they have to do. And believe me, it is not easy.


One thing to think about is that humans are humans... there will always, within any family/social/group structure be personalities that come to heads at times. If there is not someone whose voice is the last say, then any society/family/group would fall apart. So to an extent, there has to be someone in any group who has the last and final word once all has been presented and others can either agree or leave.

Also, many groups are of a teaching nature. Assuming one trusts their teachers (and if they don't they shouldn't be in the group) sometimes "No - you must not do it like that" is because their experience knows what would happen would not be good. The thing to look for is when any Elder says "no" if they can explain why and make it a learning experience, not a dictatorial experience.

M

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#45 CelticGypsy

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

I would also be inclined to believe, that those in a Family Tradition setting, that the Elders sitting in position would foster any diverse talents or true gifts residing in the younger members.



Regards,
Gypsy

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#46 Michele

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:28 AM

I would also be inclined to believe, that those in a Family Tradition setting, that the Elders sitting in position would foster any diverse talents or true gifts residing in the younger members.



Regards,
Gypsy


Yes, I would say so, too.

M

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#47 Kera

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

In my opinion the term "structure" has no frame of reference in traditional witchcraft in any culture, including cultures like the U.S. where traditional witchcraft may be different for different people. Some find American ways, such as hoodoo or Appalachian folk magic. Some find foreign communities that they find a connection with, while others simply follow their heart. It is always about following your heart and walking a journey. Traditional witchcraft, by whatever culture it grew out of, is about that journey, not about building a structure like an engineer or architect. Some witches connect with certain paths, some are ancient and fragmented, some are living traditions that have evolved through time and cultural changes, some paths are just intuitive and from the heart. I think what is important is if as a witch the person in growing in knowledge, understanding, wisdom and has the skill to use all these things. To me witchcraft is about personal growth and results, to say the least.

I think I know what you mean when you say that you are looking for structure, but the idea of structure is dangerous to growth as a witch. Structure implies restriction and laws that may not understand the connection of things that are not structured as itself. The path flows like a river. It twists and turns, has deep points and shallow points, has points easy to cross and difficult to cross. Within the river there is life that may not be seen at first glance, but stay to look long enough and you will see the fish, the river rats, the birds, etc...Traditional witchcraft is like this, it can be unpredictable and also teaming with life and mysteries yet unknown to you. We never know everything, but if we are still enough, we begin to see more of the nature of the path.

Traditional witchcraft is also cultural. Since we have become more of a global community and have faster access to people and places, the craft evolves, just as we have as mankind. Some paths have more living history, but outside of closely knit cultures, especially tribal, such as in parts of Africa and Latin America, most witchcraft has evolved in some way, even those with a long history that have exchanged with other cultures. In my opinion Wicca has structure, traditional witchcraft has ways regardless of what culture a witch's traditional path may be based on. In modern developed societies we all follow paths that are different at least in some ways from those that started a path. This is because of cultural sharing. Whether someone is in an Afro-Caribbean, Mexican, or Celtic based witchcraft tradition, if you are not originally part of that culture, then there will always be some aspects that we must just follow our intuition and heart about. We can not completely connect because we are often not a part of the culture. There is no way to know the depths of the Celts, because we did not walk the journey with them. There is no way to completely connect with living cultures in witchcraft either. We can however journey into the unknown and become seekers. I have had foreign teachers, but I know that I do not know what it means to be Haitian or Mexican, so there is a part that I cannot ever connect with. However, that doesn't make the journey any less authentic as long as you can think outside the box.

I hope that gives you some of the guidance you are seeking. Throw away the search for structure and walk your journey. There are many good posts here, read them, they will answer many questions, and will create new questions too. Trust your heart, don't be afraid to fail or be wrong, the path is full of mysteries, embrace the mysteries. Even if you take a wrong turn, just knowing that is a sign that you have learned something. You can always change course, but no sailor has ever set out to chase the wind either.

-- Blacksmith


Edited by Kera, 08 February 2013 - 02:54 AM.

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#48 Kera

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

This topic has been very informative, I am starting to see the difference btwn Trad and Wicca and New Age. I fit somewhere in btwn at this point on my journey. I have read many of your posts on the subject and have been inspired. I am letting go of the Karma thing, some of you have changed my way of thinking in that I have always been fighting and trying to be good all the time, but I cannot deny that I do have a "dark" side to me that I think I need to give into. You have now made me see that it's ok. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not a serial killer or anything of that nature. However I've always had a devious side to me. It feels really good, I feel at home so far on this site and am amazed at how much I have learned about myself in the last week through all of the reading I have been doing. I know I have a long journey ahead, but it's a journey I hope goes on forever! Just hope I've packed enough clothes! LOL! So with that I have ditched the Karma from my name!

Most Sincerely,

Kera

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Why Pamper Life's Complexities When the Leather Runs Smooth On The Passenger Seat -Morrissey

#49 Michele

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

... I have always been fighting and trying to be good all the time, but I cannot deny that I do have a "dark" side to me that I think I need to give into...

Most Sincerely,

Kera


For me, it's not so much "giving in" to any darker personal nature, as giving in could imply no control, as much as it is recognizing that it exists. That it has a purpose and is a necessary part of life. Knowing when and how to use it wisely and in a controlled manner. It is also not just the dark of one's own personal nature, but the dark of life itself - the bad times - if you know the dark, if you recognize it, then these times cease to be catastrophes that rule one's life, but can be seen as the necessary death of something old which is necessary for a future you guide yourself towards. And it can also be recognized when it IS a catastrophe and when one should calmly face it and act in accordance. And this is seen all through nature - the summer and winter, the leafless tree and the budding tree, the cute baby fawn and that same baby fawn being ripped to dinner by a predator... there is dark and light in everything... it's all part of balance and without it life could not exist.

M

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#50 Kera

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:51 AM

Absolutely....Balance, I do truly believe that balance is everything, which is what Karma is based on, but how can you know good if you don't expeirence bad, its just a universal law, I think. I also believe any real witch must be balanced... and nothing is going to change my mind on that. Not that anyone is trying to :). Thank you for your imput Michelle, you are very knowledgeable and a gifted writer.

Kera

Edited by Kera, 08 February 2013 - 02:53 AM.

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Why Pamper Life's Complexities When the Leather Runs Smooth On The Passenger Seat -Morrissey

#51 Jevne

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:11 AM

I also believe any real witch must be balanced... and nothing is going to change my mind on that. Not that anyone is trying to :smile:.
Kera


Wouldn't dream of it . . .

http://www.tradition...ced#entry128220

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#52 Kera

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

I'm just trying to learn and get involved a bit Jevne, that's all. Sorry If I bother you.
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#53 Jevne

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:22 PM

I'm just trying to learn and get involved a bit Jevne, that's all. Sorry If I bother you.


You are not bothering me. Thought you might find that of interest .

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#54 Kera

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:53 PM

My apologies, didn't see the link...... so sorry :thankyou: .
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#55 Roanna

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:54 PM

For me, it's not so much "giving in" to any darker personal nature, as giving in could imply no control, as much as it is recognizing that it exists. That it has a purpose and is a necessary part of life. Knowing when and how to use it wisely and in a controlled manner.

M


This whole post is beautifully put and echoes my own sentiments.

I feel that there is still a stigma out there toward non Wiccan witches, that we are still perceived as using dark magic for specifically negative purposes. And that is a gross misrepresentation. To me, Traditional Witchcraft is about using ALL available resources to do what I discern to be the right thing. Sometimes the right thing can be a curse. I resent the implication that I use magic to do what people popularly term as bad. If I use a binding or a curse to bring about the greater good then as far as I'm concerned, I am being as moral as the next witch. And in fact if I am prepared to get out there and use my skills to prevent harm, I think I am actually being more moral than the average Wiccan who just sits on the sidelines wringing their hands and hoping some benevolent deity will do the business for them.

And I don't think using the so called "darker magics" for personal advancement makes me a bad person either. Granted if I went round randomly hexing strangers and cursing anyone who sat next to me on the bus, I'd be a bitch and people would be entitled to point and call me an evil witch. But I don't and I don't believe I know a single witch who does. We work with intent and purpose, not random malice. (Well I do anyway - apologies to anyone who enjoys the odd bit of random malice!!)

I work within a moral framework, I just don't believe in limiting what I can do with a set of arbitary moral imperatives that constrain what I have to work with and who I am. Trad Witches are not necessarily any more ill wishing than anyone else, its just that we have an understanding of using more than one aspect of the balance to achieve our purpose.

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#56 BirdieMcCloud

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

To me, Traditional Witchcraft is about using ALL available resources to do what I discern to be the right thing. Sometimes the right thing can be a curse.


I think you stated this nicely, myself; not just as a right v wrong summation but a general statement about traditional witchcraft as a whole. :)

Of course, that then leads into a philosophical discussion of how and why we define something as 'the right thing', but that's a can of worms I've seen done to death. Or is it a dead horse? Bah, my brain isn't at optimum levels.

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#57 Roanna

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

Of course, that then leads into a philosophical discussion of how and why we define something as 'the right thing', but that's a can of worms I've seen done to death. Or is it a dead horse? Bah, my brain isn't at optimum levels.


You know what, I think there's a smilie somewhere for that............

TRIUMPHANT - I've found it!...........

:deadhorse:

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Do what you believe to be the right thing and trust yourself.

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#58 Kera

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:24 PM

This whole post is beautifully put and echoes my own sentiments.

I feel that there is still a stigma out there toward non Wiccan witches, that we are still perceived as using dark magic for specifically negative purposes. And that is a gross misrepresentation. To me, Traditional Witchcraft is about using ALL available resources to do what I discern to be the right thing. Sometimes the right thing can be a curse. I resent the implication that I use magic to do what people popularly term as bad. If I use a binding or a curse to bring about the greater good then as far as I'm concerned, I am being as moral as the next witch. And in fact if I am prepared to get out there and use my skills to prevent harm, I think I am actually being more moral than the average Wiccan who just sits on the sidelines wringing their hands and hoping some benevolent deity will do the business for them.

And I don't think using the so called "darker magics" for personal advancement makes me a bad person either. Granted if I went round randomly hexing strangers and cursing anyone who sat next to me on the bus, I'd be a bitch and people would be entitled to point and call me an evil witch. But I don't and I don't believe I know a single witch who does. We work with intent and purpose, not random malice. (Well I do anyway - apologies to anyone who enjoys the odd bit of random malice!!)

I work within a moral framework, I just don't believe in limiting what I can do with a set of arbitary moral imperatives that constrain what I have to work with and who I am. Trad Witches are not necessarily any more ill wishing than anyone else, its just that we have an understanding of using more than one aspect of the balance to achieve our purpose.

I like what you said about Wiccan' using a benevolent deity to do their business for them... Question? When a Trad Witch goes about their business, do they believe that there is any type of God so to speak or universal force guiding them, or giving them power? I do understand that you are all different I don't mean to pinpoint, I just want to get a general idea.

Kera

Edited by Kera, 08 February 2013 - 09:28 PM.

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Why Pamper Life's Complexities When the Leather Runs Smooth On The Passenger Seat -Morrissey

#59 Kera

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:38 PM

You are not bothering me. Thought you might find that of interest .

Very, very interesting indeed, and again thank you for passing it along. So true about not concentrating too much on balance. I do see her point when it comes to spells, I agree that you must do what comes naturally and not get so caught up in details. I really meant balance with practicing your craft and other aspects of life, keeping it all balanced. If your own "home", is not in order how can you possibly help others. That's really more of what I was saying.

Kera

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Why Pamper Life's Complexities When the Leather Runs Smooth On The Passenger Seat -Morrissey

#60 Michele

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

Very, very interesting indeed, and again thank you for passing it along. So true about not concentrating too much on balance. I do see her point when it comes to spells, I agree that you must do what comes naturally and not get so caught up in details. I really meant balance with practicing your craft and other aspects of life, keeping it all balanced. If your own "home", is not in order how can you possibly help others. That's really more of what I was saying.

Kera



I think that balance is very important, but it is an "overall" thing... you don't have summer and winter at the same time (well, not in the same geographical location anyway, lol) and you don't feel "happy-sad" , but winter and summer both happen and are both necessary for the continuation of life, and happy feelings and sad feelings are important if you are going to even be able to tell one from the other. It's not an "all at the same time" thing, as much as a constant over-all balance (to me).

M

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