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Questioning authority


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#1 Guest_Vania_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 01:10 AM

Hi everyone...I'm looking for some advice. The teachers in my coven are also the high priest and priestess. And they DON'T like being questioned or disagreed with. But they have some lessons that some of the coven don't agree with. We almost lost an initiate when she heard their most sticky lesson. They have a belief of where our ancestors come from...not anything taught in any schools. (beastial-human groups they claim evolved into humans)

They also only teach theory. Not one lesson on practical applications in 5 years of lessons. The lesson on spell casting was more about making sure it wasn't for personal use, and the phases of the moon.

I don't want to find new teachers since that would involve actually leaving the coven, but how do we deal with the beliefs? How do we get them to teach more practical info?? Other than the 1 initiate, we are all at a level that would allow practical info.

Thank you in advance for the advice.

Vania


#2 Jevne

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 01:33 AM

Dear Guest,

I hate to break it to you, but the leaders :rolleyes_witch: of your coven are wiccan, and not even the mildly tolerable kind of wiccans. They are hoity-toity, grand-high, my-shit-doesn't-stink, Lord and Lady Poobah type of wiccan that make REAL WITCHES want to hurl their fucking supper.

So, his and her royal Hindnesses don't want you to argue with them? Won't teach you anything remotely useful? My advice . . . run, don't walk, as fast as you can away from them and their little coven, because they are both full of :bullshit: .

Better yet, let them posts as guests here. It is not likely that either of them would receive seeker status or membership, but I would love to read some of their blather. :chomp:

I'm in the mood for a good old fashioned :rabbit: roast.

J


#3 RavenFlyer

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 01:34 AM

It sounds to me you are in a wiccan coven, and so if you are having issues with what they are teaching you then it might be time to step away from them. also this is a non-wiccan community so you may want to search for answers elsewhere.
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#4 Michele

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:11 AM

If you don't agree with what a teacher is teaching, then you don't agree with that path. My question is why are YOU even questioning it? You know your own mind. If you don't like it leave - they're not gonna change and any mutiny from within the ranks isn't going to suddenly change their path. That'd be like getting mad at your paster becuase he's not teaching you about Buddist ways. If they ain't Buddist, they ain't Buddist.

M


#5 CelticGypsy

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:28 AM

Dear Guest,

I hate to break it to you, but the leaders :rolleyes_witch: of your coven are wiccan, and not even the mildly tolerable kind of wiccans. They are hoity-toity, grand-high, my-shit-doesn't-stink, Lord and Lady Poobah type of wiccan that make REAL WITCHES want to hurl their fucking supper.

So, his and her royal Hindnesses don't want you to argue with them? Won't teach you anything remotely useful? My advice . . . run, don't walk, as fast as you can away from them and their little coven, because they are both full of :bullshit: .

Better yet, let them posts as guests here. It is not likely that either of them would receive seeker status or membership, but I would love to read some of their blather. :chomp:

I'm in the mood for a good old fashioned :rabbit: roast.

J


Feeling a little " peckish " darlin' ? I swear I've never seen you use so many " smilies " in any of your posts, since my time here on the forum. ~ giggles~ Especially when we're not real in Gram's world. ( hugs her )

Regards,
Gypsy

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#6 Lexi

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:40 AM

I'm with everyone else on this.

If you find yourself questioning most of what they're teaching, why stay? I say leave and find a coven with leaders that respect all of their members, and not just themselves.

And I don't like the sound of these 'teachers' that don't like to be questioned, and who are refraining from teaching practical method. Sounds a tad cult-ish to me, especially if they're holding themselves so high above you and your fellows. Every teacher I've had in my lifetime (magical and otherwise) has encouraged students to ask questions, especially if they feel they have disagreements about the lessons.

I was a complete solitary for the longest time, but now I'm in a trial period with an eclectic coven, which consists of witches from all sorts of backgrounds: Wicca, Vodou, Santería, Traditional, Animist, etc. There's a 'leader' with four 'guardians' (guardians of the coven as a whole, not just the leader), and they're all teachers that teach different aspects of the Craft, but they treat all of the students with the respect they show each other. Nobody is above anybody else. If questions are asked, they are answered, or if the teachers don't know, they point you in the right direction. They encourage practice outside of the coven, and communication flows quite easily.


Being a member of a coven shouldn't feel like a chore or a trap. It should be an enjoyable experience, otherwise it REALLY isn't worth it, at least in my opinion.

Lexi [Ilexys Morighannan]

“And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.”
- Roald Dahl

#7 Michele

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:11 AM

If questions are asked, they are answered, or if the teachers don't know, they point you in the right direction. T[/size][/font]
.


Lol - my favourite answer to a question I once asked someone was "I don't know.... why don't you research it and let us all know what you find?"

M


#8 Guest_Elfyd_*

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:38 AM

Dear Vania,
I am so sorry that you felt you had to reach out to a bunch of Traditional Witches to get answers to the situation you find yourself in. If, as seems obvious, you are a member of a wican coven then I would suggest you seek personal council with those you feel comfortable within said coven. Ask them if they feel the same way you do, reach out one on one to determine if deep inside they are harbouring the same doubts and questions, in this way one can formulate an informed level of understanding to help you decide you next course of action.
Certainly, as pointed out above, if you do not get the respect and attention you deserve in your chosen path then I believe that you should move on to a place where you will find it. Use your own knowledge in your chosen way to help you find the answers you seek also.
Best wishes
Elfyd


#9 Lexi

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:16 AM

Lol - my favourite answer to a question I once asked someone was "I don't know.... why don't you research it and let us all know what you find?"

M


I had quite a handful of college professors who went that route, because they would be stumped themselves. lol

It was fun learning about what they students found out during discussion. :) I'm thankful I never had a teacher who was all, "Oh, so you think you're smarter than ME, huh? I'M the teacher, and we're teaching this class MY way!" Posted Image

Lexi [Ilexys Morighannan]

“And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.”
- Roald Dahl

#10 Aurelian

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:24 AM

In five years of 'learning' they've taught you all theory and nothing hands-on or practical?

Are you willing commit yourself to another five years of 'learning', and five years more after that? It's something to think about :)

"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#11 Oakbuchanan

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:59 AM

In five years of 'learning' they've taught you all theory and nothing hands-on or practical?

Are you willing commit yourself to another five years of 'learning', and five years more after that? It's something to think about :)


Yea and probably alot of imbedded commands within those lessons too.. If this has been put up with for 5 yrs, sounds like they have everyones minds nicely controlled already, except your starting to rebel now.. Personally I'd suggest making some nice little effigies of these fuckers and throwing them to the rush hour traffic..You might actually learn something..


#12 o_O

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:01 AM

Yea and probably alot of imbedded commands within those lessons too.. If this has been put up with for 5 yrs, sounds like they have everyones minds nicely controlled already, except your starting to rebel now.. Personally I'd suggest making some nice little effigies of these fuckers and throwing them to the rush hour traffic..You might actually learn something..


I <3 this idea. Some bunnies need to be road kill.


#13 Vermilion

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:29 PM

Vania,

You don't need our advice; just by coming here, you have confirmed that you don't like what is being taught by the people you have trusted with your instruction.

I have not been practicing for long, but I do know that you should TRUST YOUR GUT.

Good luck.
~V~

I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~


#14 Abydos

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:34 PM

Good day, all.

Personally I'd suggest making some nice little effigies of these fuckers and throwing them to the rush hour traffic..You might actually learn something..


That is quite possibly my favorite post thus far! Posted Image Epic!

To Vania - I don't personally see the point of putting years and years of study into something essentially theoretical. I will assume that your membership in the coven was based on a desire to practise witchcraft. If this is the case, then why stay with instructors that aren't teaching you how to do so? Were I in a pottery class and after 5 years of instruction never had the chance to throw a pot I think I'd be beyond suspicious - I'd be pissed. Posted Image

I'll also mention that membership to a coven is hardly a requirement to be a practising witch. Posted Image

Best of luck to you in your situation!


Kind regards,


Kurt

"Your personal lack of understanding of a concept in no way invalidates its legitimacy."

#15 Whiterose

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:17 PM

I'll also mention that membership to a coven is hardly a requirement to be a practising witch. Posted Image



Yes. If you want to practise then practise. You don't need anybody and if you've been studying theory for 5 years than put it to use. If you can't than they probably taught you crap and you have to un-brainwash. Good luck.


#16 Aurelian

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:01 PM

Yea and probably alot of imbedded commands within those lessons too.. If this has been put up with for 5 yrs, sounds like they have everyones minds nicely controlled already, except your starting to rebel now.. Personally I'd suggest making some nice little effigies of these fuckers and throwing them to the rush hour traffic..You might actually learn something..


This....I love! I was trying to be neutral, but Oak's suggestion is awesome lol

One of these days I'll learn not to borrow trouble; not today, though. I've forborne to accept the invitations to join/be initiated into Wiccan covens, so I'm no expert here, but when did they stop doing the year and a day thing? I thought that was the traditional learning period, the trial period of being a seeker to receiving your formal initiation. You and your coveners should have long ago been given the chance to sink or swim. Five bloody years and you're still learning theory? You could earn a bachelors and most of a masters degree in that time!

I can't imagine you and your fellows putting up with these conditions. It would seem to me that some mental control is in use, whether psychological or otherwise. Would you mind taking a look at the Advanced Bonewits' Cult Evaluation form, and letting us know what the results are?

"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#17 Whiterose

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:00 AM

This....I love! I was trying to be neutral, but Oak's suggestion is awesome lol

One of these days I'll learn not to borrow trouble; not today, though. I've forborne to accept the invitations to join/be initiated into Wiccan covens, so I'm no expert here, but when did they stop doing the year and a day thing? I thought that was the traditional learning period, the trial period of being a seeker to receiving your formal initiation. You and your coveners should have long ago been given the chance to sink or swim. Five bloody years and you're still learning theory? You could earn a bachelors and most of a masters degree in that time!

I can't imagine you and your fellows putting up with these conditions. It would seem to me that some mental control is in use, whether psychological or otherwise. Would you mind taking a look at the Advanced Bonewits' Cult Evaluation form, and letting us know what the results are?



Here is the link to Avanced Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Frame. Seems like a useful tool in your situation.


#18 Sugarbunny

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:13 AM

Here is the link to Avanced Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Frame. Seems like a useful tool in your situation.


Just from what I have heard this sounds like a major cult. I would definitely hit the ground running. It's easier just to be solitary, even if the feeling of "community" isn't there.


#19 Guest_Vania_*

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:10 AM

Dear Vania,
I am so sorry that you felt you had to reach out to a bunch of Traditional Witches to get answers to the situation you find yourself in. If, as seems obvious, you are a member of a wican coven then I would suggest you seek personal council with those you feel comfortable within said coven. Ask them if they feel the same way you do, reach out one on one to determine if deep inside they are harbouring the same doubts and questions, in this way one can formulate an informed level of understanding to help you decide you next course of action.
Certainly, as pointed out above, if you do not get the respect and attention you deserve in your chosen path then I believe that you should move on to a place where you will find it. Use your own knowledge in your chosen way to help you find the answers you seek also.
Best wishes
Elfyd


I realized when I posted that this was a forum for Traditional Witches, but I also read some of the other postings and answers before I decided to post here. Most of the posts were sound advice, with acceptance and some wisdom. Unfortunately, most of the answers I received to my posting were blasting, with no leniency to another belief. I understand the forum doesn't like Wicca. But I wasn't asking about Wicca. I was asking how to handle the ideas the teachers were teaching,since I don't agree with this lesson. I felt that since this was a forum for witches, I would ask here. Heck, I honestly can't go to a forum on cats, now can I? Honestly, I think some of you need some anger management training. No disrespect intended.

Thank you for the constructive postings. You have given me a lot to think about, and confirmed some I had already been thinking.
Vania


#20 Aloe

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:23 AM

I realized when I posted that this was a forum for Traditional Witches, but I also read some of the other postings and answers before I decided to post here. Most of the posts were sound advice, with acceptance and some wisdom. Unfortunately, most of the answers I received to my posting were blasting, with no leniency to another belief. I understand the forum doesn't like Wicca. But I wasn't asking about Wicca. I was asking how to handle the ideas the teachers were teaching,since I don't agree with this lesson. I felt that since this was a forum for witches, I would ask here. Heck, I honestly can't go to a forum on cats, now can I? Honestly, I think some of you need some anger management training. No disrespect intended.

Thank you for the constructive postings. You have given me a lot to think about, and confirmed some I had already been thinking.
Vania


I don't see where anyone replied to you with anger. LOL Would you like some cheese with your whine? :witchbroom:

"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore