Jump to content

just wondering


phoenixfire15

Recommended Posts

So..as some of you know..I bought the book The Witch's Shield recently and not many people here liked it or would recommend it. I did go ahead and finish reading it this morning though. I figured since I spent the money I may as well read the damn thing. Anyway...he got me thinking about the whole "harm none" business. I admit when I first came into studying witchcraft I went the Wiccan way. I think my own sense of morality and my personal belief system for so long made the "harm none" rule appealing. After all..I could still do magic and not feel like I was hurting anyone. Now that years have passed my thinking has evolved quite a bit. I believe this is due to certain circumstances in my life the last few years. I believe there is a place and time and that there is magic for every reason..including justice for wrongdoing or banishing negative influences. In doing so...we may hurt another emotionally. I still do not believe in causing harm physically (although I know it has been done to me and to my son recently)..I am not sure I could do that. I can however, focus my energy and any magical work I do on something that may cause another some emotional distress if I believe it is required in the name of justice for wrongdoing to someone. Wrongdoing in the form of hurting them physically, emotionally...on purpose..for their own personal gain and satisfaction.

 

So...how does one decide when and how to do magic like this? Do you feel any guilt whatsoever? In the book..he describes a spell to catch a rapist being justifiable...as in rape is something on a different level than just banishing a negative influence or causing someone to say..feel as if they should move away from the area. I don't know if I am explaining well..I know what I am trying to say. I hope it is coming across.

 

I would like to hear from anyone who maybe started out within Wicca and is now wanting a more trad path..like me...and how they got themselves away from this kind of thinking successfully. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I feel you've explained your desire well; in the simplest terms, "you want to chase away someone as they are a threat to you and yours". Well, put away your guilt and morality, and think about yourself since you are the one who is being targeted. Focus all of your will in getting rid of this person, make it so that every time they look at you they just want to get away, make sure that they are constantly reminded of your presence and how much they want to flee. Forget about doing the "right" thing, just focus on doing the "necessary" thing and you're concious will be clear. I don't have any binding spells, but I can tell you what I would do and why I'd do it.

 

On the wiccan note, I'm probably over-qualified ethics wise (vegan, animist, pacifist) but I'm definitely no where near wiccan. I use any means at my disposal to protect the those who cannot protect themselves and help those who seek to help themselves; and I don't think that makes me wiccan. I don't even need to know your name to help you, just give me the details and payment of some kind and I'll do what feels right to me, even if it's particularly bad. Maybe that makes me immoral, but that's what makes me a Witch and one who stops at nothing to get the job done. Harming someone physically, nothing wrong with it in the least, but I sure ain't gonna go and punch someone in the face, I'll make it so that they are the ones who harm themselves as retribution for their disgustful behaviour. I'm not impulsive, but I am serious which is a strong combination.

 

I personally don't see why you need to think any differently than you do now, you're not wiccan and you've said it yourself that your thinking has evolved from when you were. I understand you feel apprehensive about acting in a hostile manner against someone, but the only thing you need to "get over" is your clouded perception, so that you can tell when something is "right" and act accordingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am glad I was understood. I didn't want to come across as not sure of myself as I am definitely sure of my path and what I feel I should do and eventually..must do when feel fully able (after I have centered myself again as I have been "off" for a long time). But yes...there have been two individuals that I know as practicing witches that have harmed me and my child. I feel the deep need to do something about it. And to prevent it from happening again...especially to my child as he is defenseless. And..I didn't even know them before this happened so I did not do anything to them. We were needlessly attacked. Granted...I am not going to go around cursing and hexing everyone who cuts me off in traffic..LOL...no..but this particular situation is different, its been going on for a long time..and I want to be rid of it all.Including the people involved. I am definitely not impulsive at all. I mull things over for weeks at a time sometimes before deciding a course of action but yes this is serious and so am I. And..I will continue to mull and meditate until I feel comfortable with what I decide. I have found a couple binding spells and I would like to actually get this one person completely gone from my family's lives.

 

I keep forgetting lots of members here are overseas and not in the US...so certain times there is little activity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, a spell to catch a rapist is ok, but putting a curse or hex on him isn't? But logic says, if he is caught-then the system itself will put the "big hex" on him, meaning jail (we hope) and whatever may happen in their. So in a sense, the "catch a rapist, not harm him" spell can in all actuality be the biggest curse of all. Which in my mind, casting a so called harmless spell is moot. Maybe you wouldn't be the last domino, but you would be the first. Same thing. I am not saying go out, and start cursing or whatever. Just do what you feel is right. If guilt is involved-your spell won't work anyway and could boomering on you. I believe everyone has that breaking point though, when they just have had enough. And will curse/hex, hit you with a bat, whatever. I had wrote a bad review on that Penczac book for a well known website. I was jumped on by those rule following peace loving wiccans-not very wiccan rede-ish, or peaceful at all! LOL! My personal take on curses is the same as it is on gun control. This sums it up for me-"How do I feel about gun control? Break into my house one night and find out". Same goes for curses/hexes... :wickedwitch:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, a spell to catch a rapist is ok, but putting a curse or hex on him isn't? But logic says, if he is caught-then the system itself will put the "big hex" on him, meaning jail (we hope) and whatever may happen in their. So in a sense, the "catch a rapist, not harm him" spell can in all actuality be the biggest curse of all. Which in my mind, casting a so called harmless spell is moot. Maybe you wouldn't be the last domino, but you would be the first. Same thing. I am not saying go out, and start cursing or whatever. Just do what you feel is right. If guilt is involved-your spell won't work anyway and could boomering on you. I believe everyone has that breaking point though, when they just have had enough. And will curse/hex, hit you with a bat, whatever. I had wrote a bad review on that Penczac book for a well known website. I was jumped on by those rule following peace loving wiccans-not very wiccan rede-ish, or peaceful at all! LOL! My personal take on curses is the same as it is on gun control. This sums it up for me-"How do I feel about gun control? Break into my house one night and find out". Same goes for curses/hexes... :wickedwitch:

 

 

 

what a great way to say exactly what I have been thinking!!!! Thank you!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You change for two reasons...either you learn enough that you want to..or you've been hurt enough and you have to"

 

Where is that Woman Pheonix Fire15 ?!?!?

 

I'm not one who will spoon feed another Witch, that Witch has to make a personal effort to step out on their chosen path. If this issue has been tormenting you for what... 3 years. That too damn long and a waste of time, when you could of been stretching your wings, and preparing your muscles to fly. imho.

 

 

Regards,

Gypsy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You change for two reasons...either you learn enough that you want to..or you've been hurt enough and you have to"

 

Where is that Woman Pheonix Fire15 ?!?!?

 

I'm not one who will spoon feed another Witch, that Witch has to make a personal effort to step out on their chosen path. If this issue has been tormenting you for what... 3 years. That too damn long and a waste of time, when you could of been stretching your wings, and preparing your muscles to fly. imho.

 

 

Regards,

Gypsy

 

That woman (and witch) is back..and yes I have been wasting time...just sitting back and letting it happen. The last year has been the worst (because of what my child has gone through). I guess that is what it took to wake me up again..

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.

 

So...how does one decide when and how to do magic like this? Do you feel any guilt whatsoever?

 

I believe that when one becomes mature as a witch, one knows the difference between feeling guilty about doing something and accepting accountability and responsibility for one's actions. I would not put a binding/hex/whatever into action unless I was ready to accept the consequences. And I would need to be very sure that what I was doing was not simply to demonstrate my capabilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that when one becomes mature as a witch, one knows the difference between feeling guilty about doing something and accepting accountability and responsibility for one's actions. I would not put a binding/hex/whatever into action unless I was ready to accept the consequences. And I would need to be very sure that what I was doing was not simply to demonstrate my capabilities.

 

thank you...

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phoenixfire15,

A very wise man once gave us the Law of Thelema. You will oft' see written this very quote, 'Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will.

This is a very misunderstood quote and many, if not most, get it totally wrong. It is NOT a licence to do whatever you want but it IS a directive to use whatever is at your disposal to protect and uphold that which is love worthy to yourself. Here we see 'Love' becomes second to 'Will', yet the will is that which upholds love as worthy of being of prime importance.

Now consider this, an aggressor will use what is within his arsenal to achieve his goal of aggression toward his target so why should you not treat with them like-for-like.

Magister Cochrane offered us a like law within CoTC cultus, 'Do not do what you want, do what is necessary'

You may 'Want' to make your problems to go away but it is by your own 'will' that you 'must' achieve the result desired. A thug, bully or conman will not understand any such trite ideas of return so why should you. Love for your family should be one such reason for righteously attacking an aggressor in any way you can. If it be by magickal means then what is important is that you do not mess around. Curse with both a finality and without guilt. After all, was there any consideration given to you or yours on their part ?. Magic(k) is from nature and nature is at oft' times very cruel.

 

Best wishes,

Ahrazura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phoenixfire15,

A very wise man once gave us the Law of Thelema. You will oft' see written this very quote, 'Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will.

This is a very misunderstood quote and many, if not most, get it totally wrong. It is NOT a licence to do whatever you want but it IS a directive to use whatever is at your disposal to protect and uphold that which is love worthy to yourself. Here we see 'Love' becomes second to 'Will', yet the will is that which upholds love as worthy of being of prime importance.

Now consider this, an aggressor will use what is within his arsenal to achieve his goal of aggression toward his target so why should you not treat with them like-for-like.

Magister Cochrane offered us a like law within CoTC cultus, 'Do not do what you want, do what is necessary'

You may 'Want' to make your problems to go away but it is by your own 'will' that you 'must' achieve the result desired. A thug, bully or conman will not understand any such trite ideas of return so why should you. Love for your family should be one such reason for righteously attacking an aggressor in any way you can. If it be by magickal means then what is important is that you do not mess around. Curse with both a finality and without guilt. After all, was there any consideration given to you or yours on their part ?. Magic(k) is from nature and nature is at oft' times very cruel.

 

Best wishes,

Ahrazura

 

in short..no..no consideration was given to me or my family on their part..none at all. I think a light just came on from everyone's posts to me here..I really was apprehensive about certain things but as far as taking "responsibility" for my actions..that is something I have always done no matter what. Like I said...these persons...I did not even know them at the time. How could I have given them any reason at all?? And my children certainly did not. Thank you fr that wonderful explanation...I really do "get it" completely now. I am so very thankful to have this forum..it clears so many things for me and I am already feeling better about everything and more focused than I have been in quite a long time.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So...how does one decide when and how to do magic like this?

 

 

If one owns a gun, when does one decide to use it on another human? Answer that and you have answered your question.

 

For me, personally, I would not shoot someone out of retaliation, revenge, or to teach them a lesson. For me to actually pull a gun on someone (and no, I don't own a gun nor do I want to)it would have to be a direct threat to my family that I felt the threatener was capable of and would follow through on and that no legal course of action could deter. But I'm also the resident fluffy on the forum :-D

 

M

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michele,

Your last stanza makes me think of guizing, Oh the masks we employ to dance our merry dance !!

 

as usual my best wishes,

Ahrazura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, if someone harmed one of my children, I cannot imagine hesistating to do whatever was necessary to not only protect, but avenge them. I am completely mystified at the notion that there would be any guilt involved, whatsoever, for doing what needed to be done if someone had, purposely, harmed my child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If one owns a gun, when does one decide to use it on another human? Answer that and you have answered your question.

 

I'm with Michele here. Imo magic is but a tool. Morals don't concern the tool, they concern the ways that the tool is used. Decide what is right and wrong, what your involvement in a situation should be, whether you want to help or hinder, even harm the person, and don't be afraid to use magic as a means to your end. I don't know how far Wiccans stretch their harm none rule, whether it applies to all other areas in their life (for instance, would they say nasty stuff behind someone's back or would they apply their Rede to that too), but for some reason it seems many people see magic as something you should be extra wary of—I mean in a sense that it's ok to report a rapist to the police but to do a spell to achieve the same goal is, for some reason, something that suddenly presents a moral dilemma. Personally I don't share this view, and that helps keep things simple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, if someone harmed one of my children, I cannot imagine hesistating to do whatever was necessary to not only protect, but avenge them. I am completely mystified at the notion that there would be any guilt involved, whatsoever, for doing what needed to be done if someone had, purposely, harmed my child.

ejfinch,

Unfortunately there is a massive problem when it comes to guilt and magic(k).

As Michele points out quite admirable in a few of her posts, many rituals are designed to deprogram the mind/psyche from the ingrained social-religious dogma that pervades us. We are taught from an early age the commandments or 'love thy neighbour' doctrinal rubbish in schools. We then are 'tempted' by the ability to acquire nice things with our money from working, then told we will be fined if we break the law. this leads us to toe the party line. From that moment we are hypnotised into worrying about breaking gods law and the law of the land. We have the Biblical quote that forces the 'blind' into inaction 'I am the lord thy god, I will repay' which little evidence is seen of but still the Christian human obeys to the point of self humiliation. Next we have the social facade which has made a mockery of our natural world whereby the wrong doer goes away Scott free and the victim is turned into the villain. The innocent then have the retribution of an errant system taking from them rather than the guilty.

These and many more considerations come to the fore when the mundane man or inexperienced witch/crafter attempt to work any spell that awakes that guilt within the pre programmed mind.

If I let a friend have a gun and he shoots somebody I will be charged with aiding and abetting in that crime. Now some years ago here in the UK a woman was rapped and the culprit confessed. One High Court judge, Justice Pickles (sic), acquitted the Rapist on the grounds that the woman asked for it by dressing in a short skirt. Did the shop that sold her that skirt get charged with aiding and abetting in rape ?, No. This is but one example why there will always be a guilt factor with people and crafters who have not yet learned to separate them self from the guilt hurdle. Guilt is clearly by definition a feeling of doing what is wrong. Until what are rights an wrongs are truly delineated into true moralistic virtues then the neophyte is going to have an up hill struggle with important magic(k)al results falling on barren ground.

 

Now if our good friend here could get an item of her aggressors clothing and make a 'poppet' she, if all guilt is removed from the mind, could make a very strong curse spell. I can picture the culprit saying to the police "I am under attack from a witch". Now that would be a thing to see lol.

 

Best wishes,

Ahrazura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Elfyd

All,

 

In light of the way this discussion has developed and the concensus herein i would like to ask all of you how you feel about the (in) actions of people like Mahatma Ghandi?

 

FFFF

 

Elf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good day, all.

 

If one owns a gun, when does one decide to use it on another human? Answer that and you have answered your question.

 

For me, personally, I would not shoot someone out of retaliation, revenge, or to teach them a lesson. For me to actually pull a gun on someone (and no, I don't own a gun nor do I want to)it would have to be a direct threat to my family that I felt the threatener was capable of and would follow through on and that no legal course of action could deter. But I'm also the resident fluffy on the forum :-D

 

M

 

This is an interesting parallel, and one that hits near to my heart for reasons that will become obvious.

 

For years now I have maintained instructor certification from the National Rifle Association for both Basic Pistol and Personal Protection Courses; the upshot of this is that I am qualified to train someone how to safely handle a handgun and under what circumstances it can be used against another human being. At the end of the class I have the option of giving the student a certificate that will allow them to obtain a Concealed Weapons Permit, basically allowing them to carry a handgun around, loaded, 24/7, almost anywhere they like should they so choose, to defend themselves and their family.

 

One of the things that I stress so strongly in my classes is under what circumstances you are permitted to visibly produce that firearm and to pronounce a potential death sentence on someone else. I point out to them that having a concealed weapon should make you *more* tolerant rather than less, since you have within your power the ability to seriously injure or kill someone with your newfound knowledge.

 

I will also warn them to "avoid going stupid places and doing stupid things with stupid people" - a little common sense goes a long way in such cases, and avoidance of trouble is often your best option.

 

That all said, if I am presented with an attacker I will use whatever means are at my disposal in the defense of myself and my family - I don't see a moral issue in that instance.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Kurt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ejfinch,

Unfortunately there is a massive problem when it comes to guilt and magic(k).

As Michele points out quite admirable in a few of her posts, many rituals are designed to deprogram the mind/psyche from the ingrained social-religious dogma that pervades us. We are taught from an early age the commandments or 'love thy neighbour' doctrinal rubbish in schools. We then are 'tempted' by the ability to acquire nice things with our money from working, then told we will be fined if we break the law. this leads us to toe the party line. From that moment we are hypnotised into worrying about breaking gods law and the law of the land. We have the Biblical quote that forces the 'blind' into inaction 'I am the lord thy god, I will repay' which little evidence is seen of but still the Christian human obeys to the point of self humiliation. Next we have the social facade which has made a mockery of our natural world whereby the wrong doer goes away Scott free and the victim is turned into the villain. The innocent then have the retribution of an errant system taking from them rather than the guilty.

These and many more considerations come to the fore when the mundane man or inexperienced witch/crafter attempt to work any spell that awakes that guilt within the pre programmed mind.

If I let a friend have a gun and he shoots somebody I will be charged with aiding and abetting in that crime. Now some years ago here in the UK a woman was rapped and the culprit confessed. One High Court judge, Justice Pickles (sic), acquitted the Rapist on the grounds that the woman asked for it by dressing in a short skirt. Did the shop that sold her that skirt get charged with aiding and abetting in rape ?, No. This is but one example why there will always be a guilt factor with people and crafters who have not yet learned to separate them self from the guilt hurdle. Guilt is clearly by definition a feeling of doing what is wrong. Until what are rights an wrongs are truly delineated into true moralistic virtues then the neophyte is going to have an up hill struggle with important magic(k)al results falling on barren ground.

 

Now if our good friend here could get an item of her aggressors clothing and make a 'poppet' she, if all guilt is removed from the mind, could make a very strong curse spell. I can picture the culprit saying to the police "I am under attack from a witch". Now that would be a thing to see lol.

 

Best wishes,

Ahrazura

 

I am having a hard time seeing what, exactly, is your point here. I also find it interesting that you feel that you are knowledgeable enough to hand out so much advice when, in your profile, you claim that "lack of experience" is your biggest weakness. I am, personally, quite inexperienced but then again, I don't pontificate about xtian de-programming or hand out advice in every thread I come across. Just saying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Elfyd

All,

Ahrazura's response is well worth digesting and makes the best case to present to those in question. As we all know justice and the justice system are not equal or consistent, Pickles is a prime example, there are countless others and in the end it all starts and ends with one's own situation at the time. In times i have been hurt, deceived or cheated I have purposefully directed "corrective" measures with just one goal, and it does not favour the quilty.

 

FFFF

Elf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good day, all.

 

All,

 

In light of the way this discussion has developed and the concensus herein i would like to ask all of you how you feel about the (in) actions of people like Mahatma Ghandi?

 

FFFF

 

Elf

 

I can admire Ghandi's principles and approaches to the problems of the time, and can easily see where there are circumstances under which that type of tactic will work. That said, I don't see it as the only way to handle conflict - while I myself don't care much for conflict, I have no qualms about fighting when I deem that I have been left no other options. Si vis pacem, para bellum - peace through strength.

 

I'm not a witch someone is going to take down without one hell of a fight. :nono:

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Kurt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Elfyd

ejfinch,

 

Ahrazura is a humble and savvy person, his light sines brighter than most. he is intelligent, well placed and a source of inspiration and without hidden agendas.

The problems and hypocricy of the Xtian movement have been well documented (including in depth HERE) and as I reside in the Midwest "bible belt" I see it every day, therefore any warnings should be taken as a gift for those who do not know the depth of the insidious behaviour of those in power. There is NO separation of Church and State as written into the US constitution, one look at the Bush Supreme Court will show this. I can go on but will not because it makes me so angry at times with the results to innocent individuals I have witnessed.

 

Peace

 

Elf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ejfinch,

Unfortunately there is a massive problem when it comes to guilt and magic(k).

As Michele points out quite admirable in a few of her posts, many rituals are designed to deprogram the mind/psyche from the ingrained social-religious dogma that pervades us. We are taught from an early age the commandments or 'love thy neighbour' doctrinal rubbish in schools. We then are 'tempted' by the ability to acquire nice things with our money from working, then told we will be fined if we break the law. this leads us to toe the party line. From that moment we are hypnotised into worrying about breaking gods law and the law of the land. We have the Biblical quote that forces the 'blind' into inaction 'I am the lord thy god, I will repay' which little evidence is seen of but still the Christian human obeys to the point of self humiliation. Next we have the social facade which has made a mockery of our natural world whereby the wrong doer goes away Scott free and the victim is turned into the villain. The innocent then have the retribution of an errant system taking from them rather than the guilty.

These and many more considerations come to the fore when the mundane man or inexperienced witch/crafter attempt to work any spell that awakes that guilt within the pre programmed mind.

If I let a friend have a gun and he shoots somebody I will be charged with aiding and abetting in that crime. Now some years ago here in the UK a woman was rapped and the culprit confessed. One High Court judge, Justice Pickles (sic), acquitted the Rapist on the grounds that the woman asked for it by dressing in a short skirt. Did the shop that sold her that skirt get charged with aiding and abetting in rape ?, No. This is but one example why there will always be a guilt factor with people and crafters who have not yet learned to separate them self from the guilt hurdle. Guilt is clearly by definition a feeling of doing what is wrong. Until what are rights an wrongs are truly delineated into true moralistic virtues then the neophyte is going to have an up hill struggle with important magic(k)al results falling on barren ground.

 

Now if our good friend here could get an item of her aggressors clothing and make a 'poppet' she, if all guilt is removed from the mind, could make a very strong curse spell. I can picture the culprit saying to the police "I am under attack from a witch". Now that would be a thing to see lol.

 

Best wishes,

Ahrazura

 

Very well put..and I do believe my "reluctance" up until now has been remnants of my Christian upbringing and then Wiccan years of "an it harm none"...so getting through what I am feeling now about "justice" being ok in my situation has been rough for me. That is why I haven't done anything as of yet and why I will wait until I can approach it with a clear mind and with absence of any "guilt". It just makes me go back to all the teachings in the Bible about turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbor including your enemies...and then..there is "an eye for an eye". Thinking that way is exactly one of the reasons I chose a different way of thinking as I got older...the hypocrisy of it astounded me.

 

Ahrazura...I wish I had a personal article from this person...I am not sure I could even get one..I should have saved the necklace I had gotten a hold of once and put it away for just this but I wasn't thinking clearly at the time...the most I have is a picture...but when I do decide to do something...it will not be for retaliation at all...it will be for binding her from hurting me or my children EVER again and if I can get her to move away from here...so be it. I have never wished physical harm, but bottom line is...I want her gone. I am tired of the hurt she has caused my family..especially my son as he is completely defenseless (he is autistic). To me...to go after a defenseless child is the ultimate in wrong doing.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ejfinch,

 

Ahrazura is a humble and savvy person, his light sines brighter than most. he is intelligent, well placed and a source of inspiration and without hidden agendas.

The problems and hypocricy of the Xtian movement have been well documented (including in depth HERE) and as I reside in the Midwest "bible belt" I see it every day, therefore any warnings should be taken as a gift for those who do not know the depth of the insidious behaviour of those in power. There is NO separation of Church and State as written into the US constitution, one look at the Bush Supreme Court will show this. I can go on but will not because it makes me so angry at times with the results to innocent individuals I have witnessed.

 

Peace

 

Elf

 

Maybe you can explain, Elfyd, exactly why "separation of church and state", "the Constitution", or xtianity, for that matter, have anything, whatsoever, to do with using Witchcraft? I wasn't aware that this forum was a place for fluffiness or morality as defined by mundane laws or xtian values...... If it is, I'm in the wrong place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...