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Pact with the Devil


Xaviera

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Very well put M.Witch, in all languages, there is a " slang " of sorts. Could this be the difference between High Latin, and Low Latin ? Or a melding of a certain form of the dialect, whether or not the 'educated one's ' approved ?

 

Regards,

Gypsy

 

Since I never needed to speak Latin even as an 'educated person', I can only speculate. It's a very difficult language, having so many tenses & conjugations I can't keep up with them all (and I speak French which has 9 tenses <although only 5 are used in everyday speech>). I would hazard a guess that 'High Latin' is/was probably the absolutely correct form in anything, and 'Low Latin' wasn't necessarily dialectical (although there probably was that) but the lazy man's Latin. Sort of like in Spanish, the lazy man (most everyone nowadays) says "te amo", which translates to " love you", dropping the implied "I", whereas 'High Spanish' would be "yo te amo".

 

Just my guess, anyways.

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Guest Elfyd

Disqualify itself from what? From being interesting?

 

 

***Please forgive me if I assumed that we were talking about the validity of the report, of the question regarding its purpose and origin. I also beg forgiveness in assuming that we were seeking a good reason for its further examination. There is not doubt that it is interesting and that all contributers on this have put in many thoughtful and thought-provoking responses.

 

Also, I didn't really see anything in this thread as a 'debate'.

.

 

 

***Once again I prostrate myself in your collective presences if i was under the misapprehension that the act of open discussion of a topic between individuals was a debate. Shows how little I really know do you not think?

 

Humbled by your words.

 

FFFF

 

Elf

 

 

 

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Since I never needed to speak Latin even as an 'educated person', I can only speculate. It's a very difficult language, having so many tenses & conjugations I can't keep up with them all (and I speak French which has 9 tenses <although only 5 are used in everyday speech>). I would hazard a guess that 'High Latin' is/was probably the absolutely correct form in anything, and 'Low Latin' wasn't necessarily dialectical (although there probably was that) but the lazy man's Latin. Sort of like in Spanish, the lazy man (most everyone nowadays) says "te amo", which translates to " love you", dropping the implied "I", whereas 'High Spanish' would be "yo te amo".

 

Just my guess, anyways.

 

Well that makes sense, slang verses the ' lazy man's verbage ' to any language spoken. Formal vrs Informal. What one regular person would say to a deemed friend, at the donkey cart. Thanks for tying it together for me.

Regards,

Gypsy

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***Once again I prostrate myself in your collective presences if i was under the misapprehension that the act of open discussion of a topic between individuals was a debate. Shows how little I really know do you not think?

 

Humbled by your words.

 

FFFF

 

Elf

 

Elfyd, a debate is normally considered a discussion with opposing viewpoints. I think we can all agree that 'pact' is a fabrication! If you're debating the age of the document itself, I suggest you research Grandier further. Even if this isn't the exact document from 1634, one similar, if not identical to it was produced at his trial amongst other damning 'evidence'.

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Elfyd, a debate is normally considered a discussion with opposing viewpoints. I think we can all agree that 'pact' is a fabrication! If you're debating the age of the document itself, I suggest you research Grandier further. Even if this isn't the exact document from 1634, one similar, if not identical to it was produced at his trial amongst other damning 'evidence'.

 

^THIS^

 

:cheers:

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I def agree that the hold of the church can be very strong, and the control in the hands of the elite few. I remember seeing a show once where a woman lived in a state of terror, convinced she was going to hell becuase her husband insisted on using condoms. Granted it was hollywood, but it made its point, lol. And yes, I suppose demons (very intelligent ones) could well use human fears and emotions to have control over the human. I find that growth often hits one in their weak spot, but that may also be becuse that's where they need it, lol.

 

M

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I def agree that the hold of the church can be very strong, and the control in the hands of the elite few. I remember seeing a show once where a woman lived in a state of terror, convinced she was going to hell becuase her husband insisted on using condoms. Granted it was hollywood, but it made its point, lol. And yes, I suppose demons (very intelligent ones) could well use human fears and emotions to have control over the human. I find that growth often hits one in their weak spot, but that may also be becuse that's where they need it, lol.

 

M

 

This is a sad reality for an unfortunate number of women in America, due to a movement that's making a pretty heavy inroad in the christian fundamentalist sects... I have a few good friends who have been taken in by it, and they have 10+ children and are having more (in spite of their failing health) due to their fear that they would go to hell if they "interfered with god's plan" by using any type of birth control.

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Guest MissTree

This is a sad reality for an unfortunate number of women in America, due to a movement that's making a pretty heavy inroad in the christian fundamentalist sects... I have a few good friends who have been taken in by it, and they have 10+ children and are having more (in spite of their failing health) due to their fear that they would go to hell if they "interfered with god's plan" by using any type of birth control.

 

It must be hard to watch good friends trapped in that way of thinking. (hug)

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This is a sad reality for an unfortunate number of women in America, due to a movement that's making a pretty heavy inroad in the christian fundamentalist sects... I have a few good friends who have been taken in by it, and they have 10+ children and are having more (in spite of their failing health) due to their fear that they would go to hell if they "interfered with god's plan" by using any type of birth control.

 

This is absolutely dreadful. I have a couple of devout Catholics that I work with and they, being very headstrong older ladies, have said in the past there are ways and means to not getting yourself pregnant which don't upset the church. I assume they mean cycle watching and the such like. It is awful in this day and age where we throw contraception at third world countries that women in the so called developed world are being brainwashed by their religion.

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With regard tothe article, I question why a demon would need a written contract when the majority of the population couldn't read or write & certainly, paper was hugely expsensive. My partner asked who would be more inclined to invent bureaucracy? Most likely a gang of demons lol.

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  • 2 weeks later...

With regard tothe article, I question why a demon would need a written contract when the majority of the population couldn't read or write & certainly, paper was hugely expsensive.

 

 

I would be inclined to believe that not so necessarily that the demon would need a written contract. But by producing a written contract, that would surely bind the human further into the damning evidence at a trial. Furthermore, the accuser was a great orchestrator of embellishment, which manipulated the minds of who sat on the jury panel. Fear was a great motivator, many country people assisted in the telling of untrue tales, regarding the accused and much like today, it's added on to either make the accuser look good or wiser. Fear motivated many to turn their backs on their friends and align themselves up with the accuser. Lawyers today, have skill in oratory talk, however, they don't get far without the research done by the lowly para-legal. I'm not knocking lawyers here, just offering up a point. Who's to say that the common neighbor did or did not offer " the truth " when the accused was being researched ?

 

Regards,

Gypsy

 

Added : Paper itself wasn't so expensive, it was the process that was. Country folk knew how to make paper, I give them credit as they had onion skins of which to write upon, as well as thin tree bark. They had dyes used as inks available, to them of which to jot down their thoughts with bird quills. They weren't as stupid as one would think, or illiterate .

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Latin was the language of the 'educated' for centuries - and not just the church (although they controlled the majority of the education). Correspondence, contracts, etc., were usually written in Latin and even as late as the 19th century, one wasn't considered 'educated' unless one could speak and write Latin as fluently as one's native language. The truly snobbish even wrote in Greek. (Makes for reading some older books/texts really irritating at times.)

 

I have heard that the French language was developed through Roman soldier's 'slang' latin, if you will, mixed with the local dialects, celtic, etc. as they invaded. Not sure on the accuracy, but made sense to me.

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I have heard that the French language was developed through Roman soldier's 'slang' latin, if you will, mixed with the local dialects, celtic, etc. as they invaded. Not sure on the accuracy, but made sense to me.

 

When I have time, I'll research this because it's an interesting proposition but in the meantime, it's possible. French is the most 'prissy' of the Romance languages - it still maintains proper grammar and has more tenses in current usage - although some are quite archaic and only used in the scholarly sense. The other Romance languages are 'easy-going', if you will. Since Latin has the proper grammar/many tenses, I can see the French tie-in.

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  • 8 months later...

Father Urbain Grandier lived a notoriously lewd life, and openly cohabited with his mistress.

 

He was suspended from clerical duties because of flagrant immorality. However, he had powerful friends. Grandier was reinstated by the Archbishop of Bordeaux.

 

One of Cardinal Richlieu's cronies came to Loudon on government business. One of his relatives was the Mother Superior of the Loudon convent.

 

Father Grandier had foolishly satirized Cardinal Richlieu when he was out of favour with King Louis XIII.

 

The Mother Superior and another nun agreed to feign possession and accuse Father Grandier as the source of their bewitchment.

 

Once more the Archbishop of Bordeaux came to Grandier’s assistance. He stopped the exorcisms meant to implicate Grandier.

 

Nothing daunted, Richlieu’s crony set up a virtual kangaroo court. Witnesses who agreed to testify for Grander were threatened. Many of these fled the country, including an attending doctor who protested at faked evidence, and Grandier’s three brothers. (Two of whom were themselves priests.)

 

This Pact was produced at Grandier’s trial. The court was told that the demon Asmodeus had obligingly rifled Lucifer’s cabinet to locate this Pact!

 

It is worth noting that the Inquisitor Sebastian Michaelis printed a bogus confession ascribed to Father Louis Gaufridi in 1611.

 

[source: R.H. Robbins. The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology.]

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Greetings All

 

Poor old Urban .. he really was a libertine at heart ad a wise ass to boot.

 

As ever it shows what happens when you rub another man's rhubarb (if you will excuse the expression!)

 

Yes it was a fabrication .. knowledge of standard procedures favored at the time shows that it was but we should remember the power that spectral evidence has had at supposed heresy trials over the centuries.

 

That said, the process can work just fine. I would suggest that a careful reading of a text by Black and Hyatt on this very title will reveal oodles (yup that is a technical term that!) of interesting stuff to the discerning practitioner.

 

Besides, lest it be forgotten that the Key of Solomon isn't just that first wee censored copy my Mathers and in itself shows quite a tapestry of interesting practices to rival those of any other through the ages when it comes to spiritual contact.

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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Urban was a prominent cognomen it meant that the person was from the city, educated and cultured. I dont think it was the name he was born with it was probably adopted when he went to get became a priest.

 

The Romans adopted cognomens because names for men were few ( Marcus, Titus, Quintus, Publius and Gnaeus/Gaius/Caius). so they adoped a secondary name, usually something friends and family called them when they were little.

 

Cesar = Hairy

Rubeus = Red Haired

Caligula = Little Soldiers Boots

Cicero = Chickpea

Pontius = Sea

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Guest atropa

Two points come to mind when reading this thread and its first post.

 

The part played by evidence, such as the document indicated, in witchcraft trials, and the subject of ‘a pact with ‘devil, demon’ or whatever.

 

Witchcraft trials involved people from all walks of life, rich, poor, famous and infamous during the persecutions of the church of Rome. Some were Witch and some were not. But what the church wanted the church usually got, even if it had to provide false evidence.

 

I know very little of the man who is reported to have made this pact, I haven’t researched his life in enough depth to give an informed opinion. However, having read the document it is possible its purpose may have been as evidence to procure a guilty verdict in a trial with the accusation being the practising of witchcraft; possibly not written by the man himself although he may well have done.

 

 

It is a way of mine to use the word ‘intelligences’ or ‘intelligence’ with the meaning of ‘intelligences of other realms and skins other than the one we exist in’ I give this information to provide clarity for anyone reading my thoughts below.

 

 

In reality agreements made between mankind and intelligences are only likely to be required at the behest of mankind, intelligences don’t usually require an agreement to be written, although nothing can be ruled out when dealing with intelligences.

 

People make pacts (agreements, oaths etc) with each other and then break them with little thought to what making an agreement actually means. Consequences of breaking an agreement made between people are usually limited to this lifetime and to this realm. ie, mistrust, anger, hurt etc, which can, if handled in the right way, be mended or at least healed to some degree.

 

Consequences of breaking a pact that has been made between an individual here in this realm and an intelligence existing in another, ie, a promise, an oath, an agreement, has consequences that may reach beyond this realm and beyond physical death.

 

The question of what are ‘devils’, ‘demons’ and ‘gods’ is worth a topic of its own, but there are intelligences in other realms and skins that are capable of and do, make agreements with mankind, be they people or Witch.

 

A couple of questions that may be pertinent to this topic are:

 

Do people or Witch understand the likely consequences of making agreements with intelligences of other realms or skins?

 

Is such an agreement the ‘pact with the devil’ as mooted by the church of Rome?

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  • 2 months later...

"We, the all-powerful Lucifer, seconded by Satan"

 

I had thought Beelzebub was another name for the devil, but I know for sure satan and lucifer are the same being. Why would anyone make a contract of any kind claiming they are seconding themselves?

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Urban was a prominent cognomen it meant that the person was from the city, educated and cultured. I dont think it was the name he was born with it was probably adopted when he went to get became a priest.

 

The Romans adopted cognomens because names for men were few ( Marcus, Titus, Quintus, Publius and Gnaeus/Gaius/Caius). so they adoped a secondary name, usually something friends and family called them when they were little.

 

Cesar = Hairy

Rubeus = Red Haired

Caligula = Little Soldiers Boots

Cicero = Chickpea

Pontius = Sea

 

Thanks Panis, I never knew that. But I'm not sure about Caligula meaning Little Soldiers Boots. Sexually demented, anything and everything goes, seems to be more of a fit, lol.

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  • 1 month later...

In " Devil Stories: An Anthology" by Maximilian Josef Rudwin, it is noted that in agreements between humans and the devil, it is always the human, who is seen as the potential oath/deal breaker, being required to offer up some sacrifice or guarantee of intent to honor the arrangement. The devil (or insert being of your choice's name here) is, thus, assumed to be willing and capable of holding up his end of the bargain without having to prove worth. This is just the first time that I had thought of it this way.

 

Why would my word be automatically assumed to be less trustworthy than any other entity's word? I don't believe in the archetypical "devil", but I do negotiate, so to speak, with a variety of otherworldly entities; none of which require anything of me beyond my willingness to keep up my end of the bargain. The strength of our relationships is dependent upon my ability to keep my word, not on where and with what I signed on the line. Humans attempt to give the illusion that pacts always require fancy language and blood. No doubt that is sometimes the case, but Rudwin's comments put a little twist in my thought process.

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Sometimes I think it is taken for granted how extremely important one's word is. I'm not overly into devil-pacting as to me it is a cultural understanding of the craft post Xtian era, but I do think one's word is incredibly important within the craft.

 

M

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  • 1 year later...

I would be inclined to believe, that since the demon is actually conversing with the human, already knowing of the fallibles that the human has or has been indoctrinated to have by those supposedly in authority, that a contract or pact could be very instrumental, in the mental mind of the human. Demons have been about for aeons. I would think that, they have seen contracts and pacts made between humans to humans, and would captalize on such a concrete, carved in stone, or on written paper. Since the human is so wrapped up in skin and ego, the demon has already won that round in obtaining the human for it's bidding. The human is his own worst enemy in this regards. I learned this when I left the Catholic Church, under my first marriage, that once I was confirmed at the tender age of 8, that it didn't matter if I left the Roman Catholic Church, and became a JW, or Morman, or Protestant, the priest told me the Roman Catholic Church would never release me from the pact I made with the Church. Apparantly at 8 years old, I did not realise that I signed this invisible contract/pact, with the words I spoke, but according to them, I did. It was part of their dogma and creed which made me wretch after I left.http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/sickwitch.gif http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/sickwitch.gif

Regards,

Gypsy

Very interesting. I have a prodestant background, and my stepmom constantly tells me that I belong to jesus forever, no matter what I do. That's a big debate depending on which denomination you talk to. So, I didn't sign any pact, but it implied with the church from what I gather, at least IME.

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