Crowley - Magick Bk. 4

[Babooshka]

Couldn't find any mention of it on the forum, but I've seen this book about and been thinking about getting it. Anybody read it or have any opinions on his work. I was slightly confused that this was book 4, and I couldn't find any of the other 3 - I might just be being dumb haha.

 

http://www.amazon.co...02693994&sr=8-1

[Michele]

I have read some Crowley but not a lot.I read the one I can't spell, lol... Liber-something. He was very ceremonial but I do think that he was also very talented. I think he was less of a witch and more of a magician, but I could be wrong there.

 

M

[Babooshka]

I have read some Crowley but not a lot.I read the one I can't spell, lol... Liber-something. He was very ceremonial but I do think that he was also very talented. I think he was less of a witch and more of a magician, but I could be wrong there.

 

M

 

 

I think it might be the same book, this one's full name on amazon is "Magick: Liber ABA Bk.4 (Magick Bk. 4)". What's the difference between a witch and a magician to you? I've always assumed that by magician, people meant magic tricks.

[Vermillion]

I think that Crowley had some pretty cool ideas - I love his Thoth tarot deck. My personal opinion is that he went a little extra bonkers along the way... so he also has some pretty odd ones, too.

[o_O]

What's the difference between a witch and a magician to you? I've always assumed that by magician, people meant magic tricks.

 

There is a difference between magic and witchcraft. Witchcraft is an art, some that is individualized and molded to one's personality. Magic is a science, something methodical and in many ways, a right way and a wrong way. Witchcraft can often be very simple and instinctive. Magic is a learned subject and can be very extensive on how to carry out a working. Magicians also don't do spells, they work rites, rituals and ceremonies. You may have heard Enochian, Chaos and Ceremonial Magicians. These practitioners do not care to be called a witch. Crowley was not a witch, and it is said by many who knew him that he actually looked down on witchcraft and those who practiced it(as many magicians do). Too bad for him that we like his books.

[Babooshka]

There is a difference between magic and witchcraft. Witchcraft is an art, some that is individualized and molded to one's personality. Magic is a science, something methodical and in many ways, a right way and a wrong way. Witchcraft can often be very simple and instinctive. Magic is a learned subject and can be very extensive on how to carry out a working. Magicians also don't do spells, they work rites, rituals and ceremonies. You may have heard Enochian, Chaos and Ceremonial Magicians. These practitioners do not care to be called a witch. Crowley was not a witch, and it is said by many who knew him that he actually looked down on witchcraft and those who practiced it(as many magicians do). Too bad for him that we like his books.

 

 

Thats something I didn't know. I assumed that anyone who worked rites, rituals and ceremonies could be witches. I guess Witches could still do these, but i would be just guessing as this difference is new to me. Ive vaguely heard of Chaos Magicians bit Enochian is a new one to me. Ok, so this is where i get out of my depth, and chance are I'll get some facts wrong here but here goes... So do Grimoires such as The Lesser Key of Solomon contain information on Witchcraft or Magic, I'm still slightly confused. I'm reluctant to post this, because I don't really know what I'm talking about so It's hard to get my question out lol.

[Aloe]

Several years ago I spent a good deal of time studying Crowley's life, but never actually read any of his books. lol At the time I was a bit put off by some of his activities so I assumed that I wouldn't find his writings useful or suitable to my path. I think that was an ignorant assumption of me to make, and I will probably be checking out some of his books soon.

 

So do Grimoires such as The Lesser Key of Solomon contain information on Witchcraft or Magic,

 

There may be differing opinions on this Babooshka, but IMO they contain magic, ceremonial in nature, with (as o_O so precisely put it) a right and wrong way to do it.

[Babooshka]

At the time I was a bit put off by some of his activities

 

 

Ooooh, do tell! :P

[Aloe]

Ooooh, do tell! :P

 

Some of his writings that I read about seemed extremely racist and sexist to me. Since I didn't actually read his books though, I was reading excerpts of his writings along with commentary of other people who had already formed that opinion of what he said. Not the best way to judge someone's writings. lol Also, the racist and sexist opinions that he appeared to have, were commonly held beliefs during his time, and wouldn't necessarily mean that he didn't have valuable knowledge to share in other areas.

 

My thinking at the time was that if someone wasn't enlightened enough to know that racism and sexism is stupid them how the fuck could they have worthwhile knowledge on anything else. But after thinking about it more... knowledge doesn't necessarily equal wisdom or enlightenment... and like I said, I didn't actually read his books.

[Babooshka]

Some of his writings that I read about seemed extremely racist and sexist to me. Since I didn't actually read his books though, I was reading excerpts of his writings along with commentary of other people who had already formed that opinion of what he said. Not the best way to judge someone's writings. lol Also, the racist and sexist opinions that he appeared to have, were commonly held beliefs during his time, and wouldn't necessarily mean that he didn't have valuable knowledge to share in other areas.

 

My thinking at the time was that if someone wasn't enlightened enough to know that racism and sexism is stupid them how the fuck could they have worthwhile knowledge on anything else. But after thinking about it more... knowledge doesn't necessarily equal wisdom or enlightenment... and like I said, I didn't actually read his books.

 

 

Hmmm, if that's the case it seems as thought its going to be going through and picking the bits out that are worthwhile and leaving the rest, which is really how it should be with any book i think. Thanks! :)

[Aloe]

Hmmm, if that's the case it seems as thought its going to be going through and picking the bits out that are worthwhile and leaving the rest, which is really how it should be with any book i think. Thanks! :)

 

If I remember right it's not prevelant throughout all his books, just here and there in some of them. So maybe there will be more to keep then to discard. :) I'm going to have to read some of his books soon and see what I think now... Let me know what you think after reading it!

[Capsicum]

bump.

 

Also, his books are on a numerical system that would probably only be understood by people within present day factions of the Magickal orders he inspired.  It's not that there are "3" other "books" before Bk 4, it's that the numerical system is completely different than 1, 2, 3 although they are in fact listed as Liber I, II, III, IV, etc.  I've never really seen much help understanding how this exactly works since I only study them without the guidance of any kind of person "in the know."

 

I can recommend at the very least, reading Liber AL vel Legis--- easily found and might give a base understanding before delving too deep into Crowley's opium riddled brain.

 

I highly recommend anything you can get your hands on by Crowley for any person interested in magick or witchcraft, but that's just my opinion.

[Alex1]

I wouldn't recommend a witch getting their hands on Crowley's material if they are interested in learning more about traditional witchcraft. You won't find the old ways in his works.

If you wish to advance your knowledge of ceremonial magic rooted in Gnosticism, Western esotericism, Kabbalah, Christian philosophy, then by all means read up on his works. Join the Golden Dawn, or Thelema, and go through the levels. Joining Wicca will have similarities as well.

 

Sorry, but I find Crowley too new-age.

Edited August 23, 2014 by SachaX

[RoseRed]

I think they found Crowley a little too new-age back then, too.   :vhappywitch:

 

I agree that it would be a very difficult juggling act to try to learn Trad Craft and Crowley at the same time.  They are very different.

 

That's not to say that there aren't witches that do practice Ceremonial or Chaos Magicks as well.  There's bunches. 

[travsha]

Crowley is good for entertainment if you skip his dryer reads.  I personally liked Magic Without Tears the most.  I dont really consider him an accomplished magician or teacher I would want to emulate though - I think he constantly made life harder for himself because he had an out of control ego.  He has some fun stories though!

[Capsicum]

Well one thing to consider is that Crowley was never fully initiated into any of the orders that he took part in (*), he drew as much as he could from each of them and went about his own way with them.  In many ways I'm quite unsure of his sincerity in this aspect but as far as learning any kind of Chaos Magick it is a good base point and much of it can easily be used in witchcraft.  I think a lot of people here may be turned off by the organizational and ceremonial parts of what he wrote about and what his followers think about witchery, but the fact still stands that there is a lot of information in his writings as well as anything you might get ahold of that's produced by the newer IOT.  Like someone in a previous comment said before, they may dislike witchery but we love their books. 

 

 

I wouldn't recommend a witch getting their hands on Crowley's material if they are interested in learning more about traditional witchcraft. You won't find the old ways in his works.

If you wish to advance your knowledge of ceremonial magic rooted in Gnosticism, Western esotericism, Kabbalah, Christian philosophy, then by all means read up on his works. Join the Golden Dawn, or Thelema, and go through the levels. Joining Wicca will have similarities as well.

 

Sorry, but I find Crowley too new-age.

 

 

I think they found Crowley a little too new-age back then, too.   :vhappywitch:

 

I agree that it would be a very difficult juggling act to try to learn Trad Craft and Crowley at the same time.  They are very different.

 

That's not to say that there aren't witches that do practice Ceremonial or Chaos Magicks as well.  There's bunches. 

 

What I'm hearing from both of you is that it's not possible to practice traditional witchcraft and study other paths at the same time?  Quite frankly I find that to be a little ridiculous.  I read books on any occult OR religious subject I can get my hands on and trust me it all is important to my path.  It almost would be like saying it's a bad idea to read books about Christianity, Buddhism, or Greek Gods because it will get in the way of your belief system.  I call BS.  If someone is so unsure of their path that they would be led astray by simply reading a book on Hinduism then I don't even know what to say to that...

 

Like I said, if you are interested in the occult in general, or witchcraft and magick, definitely read anything you can get your hands on by him. Take what you can and leave the rest.

 

*EDIT:  removed potentially libelous and defamatory statements about Mr. Crowley

Edited August 23, 2014 by Capsicum

[Alex1]

Well one thing to consider is that Crowley was never fully initiated into any of the orders that he took part in (*), he drew as much as he could from each of them and went about his own way with them.  In many ways I'm quite unsure of his sincerity in this aspect but as far as learning any kind of Chaos Magick it is a good base point and much of it can easily be used in witchcraft.  I think a lot of people here may be turned off by the organizational and ceremonial parts of what he wrote about and what his followers think about witchery, but the fact still stands that there is a lot of information in his writings as well as anything you might get ahold of that's produced by the newer IOT.  Like someone in a previous comment said before, they may dislike witchery but we love their books. 

 

What I'm hearing from both of you is that it's not possible to practice traditional witchcraft and study other paths at the same time?  Quite frankly I find that to be a little ridiculous.  I read books on any occult OR religious subject I can get my hands on and trust me it all is important to my path.  It almost would be like saying it's a bad idea to read books about Christianity, Buddhism, or Greek Gods because it will get in the way of your belief system.  I call BS.  If someone is so unsure of their path that they would be led astray by simply reading a book on Hinduism then I don't even know what to say to that...

 

Like I said, if you are interested in the occult in general, or witchcraft and magick, definitely read anything you can get your hands on by him. Take what you can and leave the rest.

 

*EDIT:  removed potentially libelous and defamatory statements about Mr. Crowley

 

There's nothing wrong with reading up on various things. Like I said - If you wish to advance your knowledge of ceremonial magic rooted in Gnosticism, Western esotericism, Kabbalah, Christian philosophy, then by all means read up on his works.

 

Go ahead and read all you want.

 

But please tell me exactly HOW Crowley's material has any relevance to Traditional Witchcraft.

 

*EDIT. Added bold font

Edited August 24, 2014 by SachaX

[RoseRed]

What I'm hearing from both of you is that it's not possible to practice traditional witchcraft and study other paths at the same time?  Quite frankly I find that to be a little ridiculous.  I read books on any occult OR religious subject I can get my hands on and trust me it all is important to my path.  It almost would be like saying it's a bad idea to read books about Christianity, Buddhism, or Greek Gods because it will get in the way of your belief system.  I call BS.  If someone is so unsure of their path that they would be led astray by simply reading a book on Hinduism then I don't even know what to say to that...

 

Like I said, if you are interested in the occult in general, or witchcraft and magick, definitely read anything you can get your hands on by him. Take what you can and leave the rest.

 

*EDIT:  removed potentially libelous and defamatory statements about Mr. Crowley

 

Wow!  You certainly added a lot to what I said.

 

What I was responding to was this:

I wouldn't recommend a witch getting their hands on Crowley's material if they are interested in learning more about traditional witchcraft. You won't find the old ways in his works.

 

 

What I said was this:

I agree that it would be a very difficult juggling act to try to learn Trad Craft and Crowley at the same time.  They are very different.

 

 

We were not discussing practicing Trad Craft.  We were discussing LEARNING Trad Craft.  Trad Craft is VERY different from anything that Crowley wrote and it's far removed from Ceremonial/High Magic.  Do you disagree with that?

 

Do you think it's good for someone just LEARNING to take on two major systems at one time?  I said it would be a difficult juggling act to LEARN both at the same time.

 

I said nothing about branching out and studying other systems later.  I'm all about furthering education. 

 

What you 'heard' from me had nothing to do with the two sentences I actually wrote.

Edited August 24, 2014 by RoseRed

[Guest monsnoleedra]

 

There's nothing wrong with reading up on various things. Like I said - If you wish to advance your knowledge of ceremonial magic rooted in Gnosticism, Western esotericism, Kabbalah, Christian philosophy, then by all means read up on his works.

 

Go ahead and read all you want.

 

But please tell me exactly HOW Crowley's material has any relevance to Traditional Witchcraft.

 

*EDIT. Added bold font

 

 

Just an aside but that dark blue is a pain to read and kills my eyes, perhaps others as well.

 

As far as traditional witchcraft and Crowley tell me how you define traditional?  That's one of the issues I have when people claim it's not traditional.  Lots of today's so called traditional stuff is nothing more than watered down Wicca and maybe aspects of granny or folk magics that had a lot of religious aspects tied to it such as Pow Wow, Granny or Appalachian Magics, Root Workings, etc   Divination, oracle, higher spells and such were seldom found in your local outside of town witch but its all passed as being part of traditional witchcraft today in many places.

[Alex1]

Just an aside but that dark blue is a pain to read and kills my eyes, perhaps others as well.

 

As far as traditional witchcraft and Crowley tell me how you define traditional?  That's one of the issues I have when people claim it's not traditional.  Lots of today's so called traditional stuff is nothing more than watered down Wicca and maybe aspects of granny or folk magics that had a lot of religious aspects tied to it such as Pow Wow, Granny or Appalachian Magics, Root Workings, etc   Divination, oracle, higher spells and such were seldom found in your local outside of town witch but its all passed as being part of traditional witchcraft today in many places.

 

----

 

Sorry about the blue font, it is actually easier for me to read it that way.

 

This discussion is not about what village I came from and whether or not we practiced the old ways; the discussion is about how Crowley's works has anything to do with Tradition.

 

I'm hoping you can give this witch an understanding of why I would present Crowley's material to the disillusioned wiccans coming to my circle who are trying to find the old ways.

[Guest monsnoleedra]

----

 

Sorry about the blue font, it is actually easier for me to read it that way.

 

This discussion is not about what village I came from and whether or not we practiced the old ways; the discussion is about how Crowley's works has anything to do with Tradition.

 

I'm hoping you can give this witch an understanding of why I would present Crowley's material to the disillusioned wiccans coming to my circle who are trying to find the old ways.

 

 

But its not about what village or where you come from its about what is being defined as tradition.  YOU are deciding what is tradition and traditional witchcraft for your group and saying that Crowley does not meet that criteria.  That is the premise of your argument  /  debate.  So it is only by your definition of what is tradition and traditional that your basing it upon and nothing more.

 

You say chakra's are new age yet the concept is found in many groups, even among Native American though they use differing words.  Heck even the very basic notion of the internal tree and the steps match the chakra's and how they affect the body and the regions they pertain to.  Doesn't matter where one is calling it the Kaballah, Tree of life, Chakra, etc its all the same premise and traditional to a given people or area.  Its like the base chakra is the chthonic or roots in other practices and serves many of the same functions.  So is it traditional?  Yeah its traditional though the term Chakra is borrowed from the Eastern mysticism. 

 

Ceremonial practices are definitely traditional and date back to ancient Egypt or older.  Pretty traditional when you consider Enochian, Chaldean, etc and the fact they cross into Crowleys workings.  How about things like the  Eleusinian Mysteries, pretty traditional and goes back to ancient Hellas.   But again it depends upon how you are defining traditional and tradition.  Heck even Demonolatry or Demonology is traditional and crosses over into a lot of base practices and traditions.  One might even add the notion of Root Races and all that as it also applies to a lot of early occultism / paganism though it has a lot of eastern mysticism in it.

 

But finding the old ways?  Whose old ways?  For surely the old ways your looking at and presenting are your opinion and belief of what the old ways are and what made them up.  I highly doubt what your passing as old ways would match any of the Granny or Folk magics passed down from Scotland / Ireland and carried into the late 1600 Virginia of my family.  Doubt your old ways would match much of the Root workings and such that have been passed down via Diaspora practices or hoodoo / voodoo like practices that incorporate a lot of early native american practices.

 

If your teaching tarot then its not old ways, that was a pallor game initially for instance.

 

Whether you agree with his works or not really doesn't matter when your trying to understand and introduce them to all the aspects that have merged to make modern paganism or the many personalities that contributed to it.  I suppose you'd not introduce them to LeVay, Laurie Cabot, Madme Helena Petrovna Blavatsky or the hundreds of other people.  Yet I'm willing to bet your going to introduce them to the likes of Starhawk and her Spiral Dance for instance.

 

Odds are your not even introducing them to their own ethnic, cultural, social traditions that derived from a lot of pagan / occultist practices that passed into the folklore and society.  Yet are magical / occultist practices and memories that make up their psychological and social memories. 

[Alex1]

But its not about what village or where you come from its about what is being defined as tradition.  YOU are deciding what is tradition and traditional witchcraft for your group and saying that Crowley does not meet that criteria.  That is the premise of your argument  /  debate.  So it is only by your definition of what is tradition and traditional that your basing it upon and nothing more.

 

You say chakra's are new age yet the concept is found in many groups, even among Native American though they use differing words.  Heck even the very basic notion of the internal tree and the steps match the chakra's and how they affect the body and the regions they pertain to.  Doesn't matter where one is calling it the Kaballah, Tree of life, Chakra, etc its all the same premise and traditional to a given people or area.  Its like the base chakra is the chthonic or roots in other practices and serves many of the same functions.  So is it traditional?  Yeah its traditional though the term Chakra is borrowed from the Eastern mysticism. 

 

Ceremonial practices are definitely traditional and date back to ancient Egypt or older.  Pretty traditional when you consider Enochian, Chaldean, etc and the fact they cross into Crowleys workings.  How about things like the  Eleusinian Mysteries, pretty traditional and goes back to ancient Hellas.   But again it depends upon how you are defining traditional and tradition.  Heck even Demonolatry or Demonology is traditional and crosses over into a lot of base practices and traditions.  One might even add the notion of Root Races and all that as it also applies to a lot of early occultism / paganism though it has a lot of eastern mysticism in it.

 

But finding the old ways?  Whose old ways?  For surely the old ways your looking at and presenting are your opinion and belief of what the old ways are and what made them up.  I highly doubt what your passing as old ways would match any of the Granny or Folk magics passed down from Scotland / Ireland and carried into the late 1600 Virginia of my family.  Doubt your old ways would match much of the Root workings and such that have been passed down via Diaspora practices or hoodoo / voodoo like practices that incorporate a lot of early native american practices.

 

If your teaching tarot then its not old ways, that was a pallor game initially for instance.

 

Whether you agree with his works or not really doesn't matter when your trying to understand and introduce them to all the aspects that have merged to make modern paganism or the many personalities that contributed to it.  I suppose you'd not introduce them to LeVay, Laurie Cabot, Madme Helena Petrovna Blavatsky or the hundreds of other people.  Yet I'm willing to bet your going to introduce them to the likes of Starhawk and her Spiral Dance for instance.

 

Odds are your not even introducing them to their own ethnic, cultural, social traditions that derived from a lot of pagan / occultist practices that passed into the folklore and society.  Yet are magical / occultist practices and memories that make up their psychological and social memories. 

 

------

 

Your response, Monsnoleedra, is broken down into three pieces.

1. Introductory information of various cultural beliefs of magical going back through the ages.

2. Stating that I am defining the old ways in my own way.

3. Calling me a new-age wiccan/whatever the hell Starhawk Spiral Dance is.

 

I will respond to two of these pieces.

 

You have certainly read alot of material and have a great understanding of various magical beliefs from many cultures through time. There is no way that I could come close to you in a battle of jeopardy in that regard. It is clear to me that you have studied long and hard, and have incorporated many things along the way helping you become as you are. Perhaps your wealth of knowledge would be better served in the members sections, as you can better explain how and why to incorporate the writings from that man.

 

My opinion and beliefs of the old ways - I only know what I saw growing up. I'm certainly not the most all knowing person. I can see how different the many different cultural belief systems are than what I learned growing up. I think my experiences of the old ways is clearly not what you experienced growing up. I didn't come from the back hills of America learning about granny or folk magics that were offshoot diaspora.

 

I hope we have not highjacked this thread.

[Guest monsnoleedra]

------

 

Your response, Monsnoleedra, is broken down into three pieces.

1. Introductory information of various cultural beliefs of magical going back through the ages.

2. Stating that I am defining the old ways in my own way.

3. Calling me a new-age wiccan/whatever the hell Starhawk Spiral Dance is.

 

I will respond to two of these pieces.

 

You have certainly read alot of material and have a great understanding of various magical beliefs from many cultures through time. There is no way that I could come close to you in a battle of jeopardy in that regard. It is clear to me that you have studied long and hard, and have incorporated many things along the way helping you become as you are. Perhaps your wealth of knowledge would be better served in the members sections, as you can better explain how and why to incorporate the writings from that man.

 

My opinion and beliefs of the old ways - I only know what I saw growing up. I'm certainly not the most all knowing person. I can see how different the many different cultural belief systems are than what I learned growing up. I think my experiences of the old ways is clearly not what you experienced growing up. I didn't come from the back hills of America learning about granny or folk magics that were offshoot diaspora.

 

I hope we have not highjacked this thread.

 

 

Just saying Crowley was a significant influence on occultism / pagansim and how it identified.  Your indicating your teaching and such for your circle yet as a teacher / facilitator / instructor you have to realize your projecting your opinion and definition of what "Tradition" and "Traditional" are.  In that regard your being as narrow and restricting of what you think meets that definition as the people your implying screwed up these Wiccan's who've come to you seeking guidance for "The Old Ways".

 

Once you take on an acolyte / student / etc you cross into a whole new sphere of responsibilities and accountability.  If you start off saying its no use to you so it will be of no use to them their screwed.  You don't have to agree with what the person presents or claims but you can't ignore it.  Nor can you really decide if it will be of benefit to them or not.  I despise Silver Ravenwolf, D. J. Conway and Edain McCoy as authors and representatives of paganism / occultism and would not recommend their books at all.  Yet I don't just say there's nothing of benefit I say why I dislike and where I have issues with it and leave it to my student to decide.   Then discuss, compare and contrast, etc the points and why or why  not.  Especially so if I accept the role of being their mentor which to me means I had better have my own knowledge and base in tact and open my own definitions.  I dislike the feminist slant that authors such as Starhawk,  Z. Buddapest and others have made in-regards to paganism, the so called Burning Times, etc but I won't ignore them because I think they are not traditional or have merit.

 

I just think as a practitioner you can take any limitations and restrictions you desire, but once you claim to be a teacher, mentor, etc that goes out the window for your teaching another and opening their eyes.  Critical analysis and observation along with internal reflection and pondering of all material not just that which supports ones position or agenda.  Of course just my own opinion so feel free to discount or ignore it.

[RoseRed]

Why would that need to be in the member's section?

 

And simply for clarification, was that some type of insult because MS is still a Seeker?

[Capsicum]

----

 

Sorry about the blue font, it is actually easier for me to read it that way.

 

This discussion is not about what village I came from and whether or not we practiced the old ways; the discussion is about how Crowley's works has anything to do with Tradition.

 

I'm hoping you can give this witch an understanding of why I would present Crowley's material to the disillusioned wiccans coming to my circle who are trying to find the old ways.

 

I am under the assumption (perhaps in error) that most people who would partake in witchcraft, especially traditional witchcraft would be students of the occult.  Finding the old ways is one of my main drives in my path.  Crowley is full of information regarding planetary alignments, old European Pagan, Egyptian, and Cabalistic/Qliphothic methods and some of it is quite useful in witchcraft.  Sigil working, numerical associations, names of otherwise forgotten rites and gods, the list goes on...I think perhaps the idea that traditional witchcraft "originated in Europe" is quite misleading because there are instances of it all across the globe because of how closely it is tied with Shamanism, including in the Americas, East Asia and Africa.  Yes, the disillusioned Wiccan could learn a great deal from reading Crowley or even Carroll's books.  From what I gather about the community on this forum, although I have not been here long, is that it is open minded and is not trying to subject anyone to one particular brand of thinking or belief system.  This in itself is one of the greatest reasons to read writings like 777 and The Book of Thoth.

 

~Capsicum

Edited August 24, 2014 by Capsicum