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"Crooked Man" Rhyme


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#1 Michele

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 12:32 AM

I know that some say the origin is more political, but in the nursery rhyme

There was a crooked man
Who walked a crooked mile
And found a crooked sixpence
Upon a crooked stile...

If the crooked mile is a "crooked path"
And the stile is the gap in the hedge (myrk riders) that one climbes over to leave the boundries of this reality
and the sixpence is that used to "pay the ferryman" who takes one over the river styx...

Then the witch walked his crooked path, and crosses the stile over the hedge (the boundry - crooked referring to the "not usual understanding"), and paid the ferryman the due to enter the underworld...does anyone see anything craft related in this?

M


#2 CelticGypsy

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 12:59 AM

I know that some say the origin is more political, but in the nursery rhyme

There was a crooked man
Who walked a crooked mile
And found a crooked sixpence
Upon a crooked stile...

If the crooked mile is a "crooked path"
And the stile is the gap in the hedge (myrk riders) that one climbes over to leave the boundries of this reality
and the sixpence is that used to "pay the ferryman" who takes one over the river styx...

Then the witch walked his crooked path, and crosses the stile over the hedge (the boundry - crooked referring to the "not usual understanding"), and paid the ferryman the due to enter the underworld...does anyone see anything craft related in this?

M

Yes I do, as stile means " to climb " or an arrangement of steps set into a wall or fence ( hedge ) allowing people to climb over. What I find funny/odd is that these stiles are there, they are " set in " and ordinary people don't have the insight to see or acknowledge them, only the Witch does, as it's the crooked path the Witch is already intellectually traveling and the sixpence is just a bonus or another nugget of wisdom for the Witch to use as he/she deems fit. Who knows, perhaps the ferryman won't take a crooked coin? lol. He isn't an ATM from what I know. :tongue:
Interesting post M !
Regards,
Gypsy

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#3 Absinthe

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 01:36 AM

There's an absolute wealth of connotations between nursery rhymes and various craft paths . I once started to write a compilation of how well-known fairy tales/nursery rhymes could be veiled accounts of witchcraft anecdotes. As usual, I became distracted and didn't finish it.

I found this:

The Identity of Mother Goose & her Nursery Rhymes!

Old Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes

Old Mother Goose
When she wanted to wander
Would fly through the air
On a very fine gander.

Mother Goose had a house;
It stood in the wood
Where an owl at the door
As sentinel stood.

Posted Image

The Identity of Mother Goose & her Nursery Rhymes!
The words of the original Old Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme can be interpreted to find a darker meaning to the identity of ' Mother Goose'! The title ' Mother Goose ' probably originates from the 1600's - the time of the great witch hunts. Comparisons can be made between the Mother Goose in the above children's poem and the popular conception of a witch during this era!


  • Witches were able to fly ( the broomstick has been replaced by a goose, hence the name - Mother Goose )
  • A witch was often portrayed as an old crone ( with no man to defend her against accusations of witchcraft)
  • Witches are closely associated with living alone ( house in the wood)
  • Witches were known to a have 'familiars' (most often cats but also owls! Just like the modern wizard Harry Potter whose owl is called Hedwig!)
  • The identity of the Mother Goose in the Nursery Rhymes was therefore a witch!
Witches, Familiars and Nursery Rhymes!
Animals like the Cat, Frog, Pig, Raven, Goat, Wolf, Goose, Crow, Bat and Mouse were believed to be the forms adopted by a Witches Familiar (an evil spirit, in animal form, who was used by the witch to perform evil deeds and cast malevolent spells). People were obsessed with witches during the 16th and 17th centuries when there was limited understanding of the cause of devastating events, such as storms, drought and disease. The disasters were believed to be brought about by supernatural forces which resulted in scapegoats (witches) being blamed. A book called the 'Malleus Maleficarum' was published in 1486 as guide used for the torture and persecution of witches - a best selling book of those times, only being out-sold by the Bible! Witchcraft was outlawed in England in 1563 and a Witchcraft Act was passed in 1604. The witchcraft hysteria grew and eventually led to the Parliamentary appointment of Matthew Hopkins as Witchfinder General in 1644. His task was to seek out witches (he was vigorous in his work as he was said to have been paid twenty shillings for each witch he condemned!) During his interrogations he was guided by books like the 'Malleus Maleficarum'
which stated that an animal Familiar “always works with the witch in everything”. Many Nursery Rhymes originated in the 16th and 17th centuries and the children of these era's would have been familiar (sorry about the pun!) with stories of witches and witchcraft. Just look at the image of Mother Goose portrayed a witch with her familiar (the goose)! Is it therefore just a coincidence that so many of the Nursery rhymes of the periods featured the Cat, Frog, Pig, Goose, Raven, Goat, Wolf, Bat and Mouse?

Edited by Absinthe to add copyright reference: Alchin, L.K. Nursery Rhymes Lyrics and Origins
e.g. Retrieved November 2007 from Rhymes.org.uk

Edited by Absinthe, 08 March 2011 - 02:15 AM.

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#4 Michele

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 02:26 AM

Yes, I have heard much of Mother Goose being related to witchcraft and it is something I would one day like to take some time looking into.

Peter Paddon wrote an article about the sixpense, something along the lines of it being real silver (well, used to be) and the "six" pence value the six arms of the hex star. "Modern crafters have the additional advantage that it has been withdrawn from circulation. It is no longer legal tender in this realm, making it legal tender in the next world instead. The custom was to bend a coin, rendering it useless for mundane purposes [crooked sixpence]..." That actually makes a lot of sense if one looks at the underworld as the mirror image/inverse/opposite of our world. (I also read somewhere the idea that while we are here, living, and view the dead as waiting to be reborn, the dead look out on us, and view us as dead and waiting to be reborn into their world but that's another topic, lol) Paddon also mentions some folklore about casting a coin into wells. Mum used to bury several sixpence in the Xmas pudding and whoever found one was to have luck (or a broken tooth!) for the coming year. She also used to say to turn them over in your wallet on the new moon to bring more money in.

Nigel Jackson has a pathworking which takes one across the hedge via the route of a stile in the hedge. I haven't tried his way, but I like the visual if gives me very much.

M


#5 CelticGypsy

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 03:23 AM

Whoa Absinthe regarding the picture of Mother Goose on the Gander just as it just struck me, could that be an indication of Witches stealing babies ? Just a thought. How that act of violence and abuse still threaded it's way into just a simple sweet old woman who rode a goose? mhmmm...

Regards,
Gypsy

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#6 Absinthe

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 04:27 AM

Whoa Absinthe regarding the picture of Mother Goose on the Gander just as it just struck me, could that be an indication of Witches stealing babies ? Just a thought. How that act of violence and abuse still threaded it's way into just a simple sweet old woman who rode a goose? mhmmm...

Regards,
Gypsy


...And following that train of thought....Lilith? I've always been drawn to literature regarding Lilith - and at the same time feel somewhat intimidated by her reputation in the child-stealing area. I know Michele is a lot better read than I am regarding Lilith. Isn't it amazing the way our posts that start out in widely varying subjects often end up cross-referenced and linked? That old synchronicity again!

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#7 Aloe

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 04:42 AM

...And following that train of thought....Lilith? I've always been drawn to literature regarding Lilith - and at the same time feel somewhat intimidated by her reputation in the child-stealing area. I know Michele is a lot better read than I am regarding Lilith. Isn't it amazing the way our posts that start out in widely varying subjects often end up cross-referenced and linked? That old synchronicity again!


I was thinking about Lillith when I noticed your post earlier because of Michelle mentioning to me before that she is sometimes portrayed with Goose feet. I don't know about the 'baby stealing' stuff though... will have to do my homework on that.

"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#8 Michele

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 01:24 PM

I actually know very little about Lilith other than intellectually and I try to not "memorize" what I have read of her because for me I would need to know her on a deeper level. I have found her extremely difficult to approach in her form as Lilith and actually easier to understand in her form as Inanna's sister (starts with an E but can't spell it, lol). Being a "dark moon" goddess she is related to the darker, hidden aspects of the self (not evil aspects) and menstruation (i.e. loss of baby becuase woman had the audacity not to conceive). But she is a vampyric spirit and a sexual spirit - stealing night emmissions of men (and thereby their seed (babies)) and as sexually independant she also can be viewed as "stealing" babies as she didn't accept the role of laying down, being fruitful and multiplying. She isn't the typical depiction of the calm, controlable woman who makes a good mother. She has been equated with Sophia (wisdom) . Supposedly the "false god" said tht if she did not return to Adam (the un-enlightened shephard) that he would kill off 100 of her children daily. And she had the power to kill off human babies (sudden infant death). She didn't reject and cast out her darker nature, but embraced it which was considered an extremely underisable trait in a woman, and made for a very bad mother. But she also knew the hidden name of god and if one takes the symbology of the vampyre as the turning of the witch, then she is the mother of the witch-blood. She controls herself and her regenerative powers; she does not leave them in the hands of a false god and his delusions that all comes from him. And everytime she has sex without the purpose of reproduction she is "stealing" a baby. Sex was viewed as "base" and not something "decent women" desired or enjoyed. Decent women served their husbands needs and were rewarded with babies. But that is also the intellectual understanding of it - I believe her mythos have layers of meanings that go much deeper than that.

M


#9 Vermilion

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:01 PM

Hm... a friend just told me about Lilith as well... something about an affair and her chosing to give up her eyes for eternal Sight in the mystical sense. Synchronicity indeed. Time to go hunting about this one, I think.


I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~


#10 CelticGypsy

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 05:55 AM

Hm... a friend just told me about Lilith as well... something about an affair and her chosing to give up her eyes for eternal Sight in the mystical sense. Synchronicity indeed. Time to go hunting about this one, I think.



There may be a connection between Lilith and the Etruscan divinity Leinth, who had no face and who waited at the gate of the underworld along with Eita and Persipnei to receive the souls of the dead. The underworld gate was a yoni, and also a lily, which had no face. Admission into the underworld was often mythologized as a sexual union. The lily or lilu (lotus) was the Great Mother's flower-yoni, whose title formed Lilith's name. Perhaps your friend was referencing the giving up eyesight, which would very well be someone with no eyes, ears, nose, mouth, therefore faceless?

Regards,
Gypsy

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#11 Vermilion

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 02:26 PM

I hope this does not divert the thread by too much, M. I will gladly move this to another one, if you would prefer.

I found a very interesting article about the origins and myths of
Lilith, here. I suggest you start on page 8 and read to the top of page 14, as that's where things get into some background - the first bit had me scratching my head, but may be of use to someone? (Crowley named one of his kids after her, interesting!)

Here's the part my friend was talking about:
"Lilith’s origins are uncertain, with some sources calling her the daughter of Hecate, perhaps born a monster or hybrid, while others claim that her monstrous nature began when she became one among many victims of Hera‘s wild jealousy. Lilith, like many women in Greek mythology, had a sexual relationship with Hera‘s husband, Zeus, the king of the gods. Zeus even gave Lilith the gift of second sight, known as the ―mark of Sibyl.‖ Mad with jealousy, Hera cursed Lilith to a childless life, and murdered all her living children save for Scylla. Hera also cursed Lilith‘s gift of sight so that she would never be able to shut her eyes, forcing her to perpetually see and obsess over her dead children. Traumatized, Lilith became a monster and claimed her vengeance on all mothers by stealing and devouring their children. Eventually, Zeus took pity on Lilith and gave her the ability to take out her eyes, so that she would not be at all times haunted by the ghosts of her murdered children."

Here another piece of writing about Lilith. I may have to purchase this book - the exerpt left me wanting more.

I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~


#12 CelticGypsy

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:26 PM

I was thinking about Lillith when I noticed your post earlier because of Michelle mentioning to me before that she is sometimes portrayed with Goose feet. I don't know about the 'baby stealing' stuff though... will have to do my homework on that.



Interesting Aloe the reference to " goose feet ", she is oftimes depicted also with " owls feet " which goes back to supposedly the only hidden and abtruse suggestion of her existance in the Hebrew Bible. Isaiah 34:14, alas the scholars refer to it as a " screech owl ". Uhhh.. we're getting a bit side tracked with the orginality of the Post, imho, I'm gonna reserve this as my last post about Lilith, although I do find this myth/legend/divinity extremely interesting. Unless there is a vital connection to the Craft, or something that resonates within those who choose to follow this thread, and add their wisdom.
Regards,
Gypsy

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#13 Michele

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 01:21 AM

Everybody please post more about wherever the thread is taking you, lol. One of the nice things about forms is the "brainstoming" and, like a good conversation over a cup of coffee, the conversation goes down whatever avenue its wanderors take it!

M


#14 Michele

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 02:07 AM

Mike Howard has two very good books that ref her - Pillars of Tubal Cain and Book of Fallen Angels. They are a bit hard to find on Amazon sometimes but can often be got through Magus Books quite reasonably. He does a good job of tracing her back. He doesn't get too much into her psychological aspeccts (that Lilith book by S. Hurwitz looked quite good re the psychological aspects and meanings - I am going to look into that. It wasn't available on Kindle so no instant download, lol) but rather on tracing her mythology. I believe Howard finds the first traces of her in Sumeria around 2000 BCE and then traces her many associations with other goddesses as people mingled and conquered aand assimilated. He includes her myth of nesting in the trunk of Inanna's rescued tree (which some equated with the "world tree" and therefore Lilith in the trunk connecting upper and lower). She has been linked to Diana, Herodias (who has many links when attached the the witches' sabbath) and the Queen of Elphame.

One of the things I often find hard when working with mythology (which I suck at, lol) is remembering that myths tell stories - they are symbolic of something and the god-forms are meant as initiating currents rather than as literal existing people and literal happenings. So each "weird" thing they do has some symbolic meaning that would be very different from how we would take such a happening in "real life". Sometimes she is seen as the Queen or mother of the elvin or fairy races, and they can often been seen as those who inhabit the underworld.

I have a great interest in her, but have found her very hard to approach. The one time I reallly tried to make contact I made a black mirror for her and wrote symbols on it in blood (vampyric) and then "jumped" into the mirror. The immediate feeling I got was "who the fuck are you, I did not invite you here, get the fuck out - NOW) so I left - um, pronto, lol. Anyway, it seems one does not DECIDE to work with her aspect, but rather approaches her in a much less invasive way until they receive a solid invitation, lol. (Or there's always the chance she just didn't like me :-). I have since been tracing some of her associations, including those of Carlos Ginsberg - I don't remember if he specifically mentioned her, but he mentioned some god-forms that had been associated with her in other texts, and one of them was a form particularly meaningful to me on a personal level. It seems, and I could be incorrect, that Lilith is a more recognizable version of the common culture ( in her biblical aspect - especially after the coming of Roman Catholoicism into Eurpoe) of the old witch gooddess/es. They are also night-flying and although their mythos is different their aspects are related. Her use through the biblical associations is often seen as a sort of "inverse" dual-faith as it works alongside the Cain and Fallen Angel and Eden mythos.

There seem to be many tales of night flying to the "sabbat" the "good game" the "mountain" or "benevito", etc., and the various goddesses that are reported along with the various names share some common connection. It is hard to tell for sure as much of this was recorded by the church through their eyes, but it seems to me that people of unconnected culture had similiar experiences with differnet "names" for the experience and for the "Dame." And it seems to all boil down (to me) of a rather shamanic way of working with the aspect of the underworld goddess. I am no scholar on this, so I am only going by the logical (or illogical, lol) conclusions I am jumping to when I take all the bits and bobs and stick them together as a whole. I may at some time find out this is an incorrect conclusion, but that is part and parcel of "walking the Path."

M


#15 Aloe

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 03:39 AM

Mike Howard has two very good books that ref her - Pillars of Tubal Cain and Book of Fallen Angels. They are a bit hard to find on Amazon sometimes but can often be got through Magus Books quite reasonably. He does a good job of tracing her back. He doesn't get too much into her psychological aspeccts (that Lilith book by S. Hurwitz looked quite good re the psychological aspects and meanings - I am going to look into that. It wasn't available on Kindle so no instant download, lol) but rather on tracing her mythology. I believe Howard finds the first traces of her in Sumeria around 2000 BCE and then traces her many associations with other goddesses as people mingled and conquered aand assimilated. He includes her myth of nesting in the trunk of Inanna's rescued tree (which some equated with the "world tree" and therefore Lilith in the trunk connecting upper and lower). She has been linked to Diana, Herodias (who has many links when attached the the witches' sabbath) and the Queen of Elphame.

One of the things I often find hard when working with mythology (which I suck at, lol) is remembering that myths tell stories - they are symbolic of something and the god-forms are meant as initiating currents rather than as literal existing people and literal happenings. So each "weird" thing they do has some symbolic meaning that would be very different from how we would take such a happening in "real life". Sometimes she is seen as the Queen or mother of the elvin or fairy races, and they can often been seen as those who inhabit the underworld.

I have a great interest in her, but have found her very hard to approach. The one time I reallly tried to make contact I made a black mirror for her and wrote symbols on it in blood (vampyric) and then "jumped" into the mirror. The immediate feeling I got was "who the fuck are you, I did not invite you here, get the fuck out - NOW) so I left - um, pronto, lol. Anyway, it seems one does not DECIDE to work with her aspect, but rather approaches her in a much less invasive way until they receive a solid invitation, lol. (Or there's always the chance she just didn't like me :-). I have since been tracing some of her associations, including those of Carlos Ginsberg - I don't remember if he specifically mentioned her, but he mentioned some god-forms that had been associated with her in other texts, and one of them was a form particularly meaningful to me on a personal level. It seems, and I could be incorrect, that Lilith is a more recognizable version of the common culture ( in her biblical aspect - especially after the coming of Roman Catholoicism into Eurpoe) of the old witch gooddess/es. They are also night-flying and although their mythos is different their aspects are related. Her use through the biblical associations is often seen as a sort of "inverse" dual-faith as it works alongside the Cain and Fallen Angel and Eden mythos.

There seem to be many tales of night flying to the "sabbat" the "good game" the "mountain" or "benevito", etc., and the various goddesses that are reported along with the various names share some common connection. It is hard to tell for sure as much of this was recorded by the church through their eyes, but it seems to me that people of unconnected culture had similiar experiences with differnet "names" for the experience and for the "Dame." And it seems to all boil down (to me) of a rather shamanic way of working with the aspect of the underworld goddess. I am no scholar on this, so I am only going by the logical (or illogical, lol) conclusions I am jumping to when I take all the bits and bobs and stick them together as a whole. I may at some time find out this is an incorrect conclusion, but that is part and parcel of "walking the Path."

M


Thanks for sharing Michelle. I've been thinking of attempting to approach Lilith as I have reason to believe that in the past she's attempted to contact me. I'm glad you shared your black mirror experience, it puts me on guard for the possibility of this kind of reception. lol Especially considering how ignorantly I treated (what I believe is) her attempts to contact me in the past... my reception could be even more unfriendly.

"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#16 Vermilion

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 03:02 PM

Everybody please post more about wherever the thread is taking you, lol. One of the nice things about forms is the "brainstoming" and, like a good conversation over a cup of coffee, the conversation goes down whatever avenue its wanderors take it!

M


Oki dokee! Just checking since (although I also feel that a forum is a sort of chitchat over coffe type deal) some people become offended once things stray from the subject they intended for the thread.

I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~


#17 Michele

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 01:29 AM

Oki dokee! Just checking since (although I also feel that a forum is a sort of chitchat over coffe type deal) some people become offended once things stray from the subject they intended for the thread.


Well it is still craft related, lol, and if someone searched for "Lilith" it would still pull up this thread so we're probably okay...

M


#18 Dream Walker

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:47 PM

Over the course of my research into Lilith I have found that there are two periods from which one could view Lilith. By far the most difficult to find is the earlier account of Lilith as a strong admirable women of power. The later period is most likely what many people are familiar with where Lilith is a demon or a Sukkubus.

When I say it is hard to find accounts of the first period I mean its almost impossible haha. I have seen reference in Summerian Magi stories primarily and to some degree accounts of the Nephilim. Here is a translation of a Summerian legend:


As a preface: Atlen means paradise.

Before the stars were born
Before people built great cities
The great mountain Atlen shook
And bled fiery blood
As it gave birth to Lilitu

The land all around burned
Many animals and people died
When Lilitu opened her eyes
Lilitu saw the ashes of her birth
And wept tears like rain

Lilitu's tears became rivers and streams
Flowers grew where Lilitu walked
Trees grew where Lilitu sat
The ashes became fertile soil
And an orchard became Lilitu's home

In Lilitu's orchard many animals are
People came to live in paradise
Lilitu gave them grain and taught them to harvest
Lilitu made bread and beer
The people rejoiced, ate and drank

One day a great prince came to the land of Atlen
He spied Lilitu and wooed her
But Lilitu spurned and rejected him
The great prince became very angry
He spied two lions and killed them both

Lilitu wept for the lions
She cradled their heads in her arms
The lions awoke to her tears
The lions licked away her tears and became strong
They became Lilitu's loyal friends

The great prince saw this
And again he wooed Lilitu
But Lilitu became a bird
She flew away from him
Angry, the prince began hunting birds

Lilitu saw this and was upset
To spite the prince she spat at him
And mated with a serpent
Lilitu gave birth very quickly
Her child was like no other

The child had six arms
The child had a serpent's tail
The child was very strong
Lilitu called the child a Marilitu
The marilitu attacked the great prince

The great prince and the marilitu fought
They fought day and night
For night after night
And day after day
But neither could win the fight

Lilitu saw this and mated again
Another marilitu was born
And another and another
Two hundred and sixteen were born
In fear the great prince ran away

The people of the orchard rejoiced
The marilitu's farmed the land
The marilitu's protected the people
But the great prince swore vengeance
He cursed the mountain Atlen and its land

Atlen became angry at this curse
The mountain and the land shook
Atlen shook and bled and cried
Its fiery blood made fires
And its tears made floods

Afraid Lilitu turned into a great bird
She grasped people in her feet
She carried animals on her back
The marilitu's and the lions carried people too
Together they fled the land of Atlen

Lilitu went west and east
Lilitu went north and south
Finally she came to dry land
The people thanked Lilitu greatly
The people built statues in her honour

Lilitu wept for her lost home
Her tears formed two rivers
The rivers joined together
They flowed into the ocean
The people grew grain by the river

The people grew great orchards
They built buildings and towers of stone
The people grew healthy and the land rich
Merchants from far places travelled there
News of the wealth of the land grew

The great prince heard of the land
He sent his heralds to inquire of its lady
But Lilitu fed his heralds to her lions
The great prince sent an army
But the marilitu's destroyed his army

Finally the great prince went
When he saw the beautiful orchards
When he saw the six-armed marilitus
The great prince knew the lady was Lilitu
In fear he disguised himself as a woman

The great prince went to Lilitu's temple
His disguise fooled the people
But the lions knew his scent
The two lions warned Lilitu
So Lilitu prepared a trap

Lilitu summoned thirty-six young men
She filled a hall with thirty-six silver platters
She ordered thirty-six beasts slaughtered
At last she was ready
She invited the people to the feast

People came from all over the land
The great prince came too
The great prince arrived in disguise
But Lilitu knew him eagerly
She welcomed him as an honoured guest

The great prince accepted her hospitality
He sat before all the people
The thirty-six young men were brought forth
"Please choose a man," Lilitu commanded
Not wanting to be rude the great prince chose one

Lilitu bade the great prince to sit beside the young man
The silver platters were brought forth
The people feasted on the meat of thirty-six beasts
Great gifts wer e brough forth
Lilitu gave the gifts to the great prince

Confused the great prince accepted
Then the feast was finally over
Curious, the great prince questioned Lilitu
"Do you always give such grand gifts to strangers?"
"Only when someone is married," Lilitu answered

Realizing what had happened the great prince became angry
He ripped off his disguise
He drew his sword and his dagger
"Why have you made me marry this man?" he demanded
"Because you can never marry me," Lilitu answered

Enraged the great prince attacked Lilitu
The two fought endlessly for Lilitu was very strong
Whenever the prince would get too bold
Lilitu would change into a bird
The great prince fell to the ground and wept in despair

The great prince professed his love
He promised that he would never quit
He prepared to cut his own throat
Finally Lilitu grew tired of this game
She felt pity for the great prince

"I will grant you one kiss," Lilitu declared
Desperate the great prince accepted
The moment the great prince's kiss had been dealt
His body flooded with life and then death
So great was the pleasure of one kiss that he died

Lilitu wept for the great prince
But the great prince remained dead
Saddened Lilitu knew she could never love
No mortal man could taste her kiss and live
Her tears brought life, but her kiss brought death

Some Important things I think to take from this are: Lilith was not always a Sukkubus or seducer (she did not seduce the prince).

A similar word to Atlen in Egyptian is Etlen and the meaning of the two words are essentially the same. Etlen is often used to refer to Eden and the Atlantis.



"Time is a moving image of eternity" - a mechanical copy of a more profound reality.
- Plato/ Tobias Churton

#19 Dream Walker

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:49 PM

By the way I forgot to add that the best medieval references I have found are the Zohar (Book of Splendor) and the Alphabet of Ben Sirah.Posted Image


It is quite possible this dualistic representation in history is caused by the possible combining of the Babylonian Lilitu (Lilith) and the Summerian Lamassu who was the daughter of Anu, the god of heaven.

P.S. here is a link for a documentary, kind of a mixed bag http://wn.com/lilith

Edited by Dream Walker, 14 April 2011 - 04:12 PM.

"Time is a moving image of eternity" - a mechanical copy of a more profound reality.
- Plato/ Tobias Churton

#20 Vermilion

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for sharing, DW - that's a great find! Did you translate this yourself?

It made me think of the Chris de Burgh song The Tower.... it follows the same general ideas.

A great lord came walking through the forest
One morning with a weapon in his hand;
Rich was his castle, he lacked for nothing,
But killing was his plan;
When a white bird flew by she fell from the sky,
Nothing was found, only blood on
the ground, she was gone;

Cursing his fortune,
He turned to the forest to kill once again,
And standing before him was a lovely young woman
With her hand hung in pain,
When he saw her his eyes were filled with desire,
He said "I must have her, she must be mine,
She will be mine..."

He offered her silver, he offered her gold,
But she threw it on the ground,
He fell to his knees and he begged her,
"Oh please come with me,
What you wish will be found;"
She said, "Sire, I'll go if you put up your bow,
And spare these creatures, leave them in peace,
You have no need..."

But her words were lost in the wind
His eyes were fixed on a queen
And all he saw was a woman
And all she was, was a dream...
Oh oh...And all he saw was a woman, and all she was,
Was a dream...

He took her and bound her with ropes tied around her
To his castle he did ride;
In the wood was a bower where stood an an old tower
And he threw her deep inside;
Then the birds left the sky and a terrible cry,
Brought thunder and lightning, and rain falling down,
Tears on the ground...

All through the days on her face he would gaze,
For she was lovely as the spring;
No words would she speak but "Leave them in peace",
And some sad lament she would sing,
Oh one day by the door, at the window he saw
A single white feather lying on the floor.
She was there no more...

Now that great lord is dying,
His cold heart is crying for the love of the girl;
For many an hour he has wept on the tower
For she meant more than the world;
And once in the sky, a white bird flew by,
He lifted his hands, he cried out in pain
"Come back again..."

But his words were lost in the wind,
His castle was built upon sand,
And all he has is a memory,
And all he yearns is her hand...
Ah ah ... all he has is the memory,
And all he yearns is her hand.

I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~