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#1 Mountain Witch

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:32 PM

A friend of mine found this very interesting site.

http://www.tengerism..._Shamanism.html

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#2 Jevne

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 02:50 AM

I have learned something new today. Thank you for that Mountain Witch.

Jevne

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#3 firebird

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 01:26 PM

Interesting read, thanx. I too learned something.:wickedwitch:
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#4 Guest_Chatters_*

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 03:13 PM

A friend of mine found this very interesting site.

http://www.tengerism..._Shamanism.html



Really enjoyed reading this Mountain witch. Thanks for sharing the link.

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#5 Blacksmith

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:45 AM

It is true that the word shaman does originate from the Siberian shamans, however use of the word has become common, at least in the English language to describe those that practice in very similar fashion. The link is excellent, but only covers one local form. You may want to check out Martin Pretchels book "Secrets of the Talking Jaguar". He is a Tzutujil (Maya) shaman. Shamanism is not unique to only one culture, as can be evidenced in Africa, the Americas, and Europe. Words are sometimes borrowed from other cultures. Practices may certainly very, but at its heart, the shaman is the shaman whether Siberian or Tzutujil. The calling is the same no matter what the culture. The death and rebirth process exists in all paths of "shamanism". I am an initiated shaman. I had the calling and it could not be denied. It is true also, as stated in the link, that the shaman has another soul. The nine levels may vary depending on culture and tradition, however it is a long process. Moving from apprentice to initiated shaman is arduous and takes a long time, but the journey lasts a lifetime. There are many specialties among shamans, many of which were not mentioned on the link. There was a mention on the site about shamans charging a fee for training. I have never met a shaman, whether Chippawa, Mexican, African or other, that will charge as much as a penny for an apprenticeship. The path is sacred and is passed to us by the spirits, by Earth, and by a calling which cannot be described to one who has not been called. The ethics vary from culture to culture, but no authentic shaman will charge for anything other than any supplies and materials needed. You would however be likely put to work as an apprentice. Part of the apprentices responsibility and training is to assist the shaman in his or her work. Furthermore, if the shaman does not sense that you have been called you will not likely be told much of anything. I have been invited to work with two Chippawa shamans, a Mexican brujo (male witch, of the shamanic old school, not the newer cult of La Santisima Muerte), as well as West African shamans. It's almost like extended family, we just kind of know of each other when we meet. There are no open invitations, weekend retreats, or anything similar. It is very much a private club so to speak....just minus the clubhouse. Anyways, some info to look into and ponder. Thanks for the link. I am glad to see people interested in seeking authentic shamanism.
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#6 Michele

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:39 AM

In addition to the link provided by MW, I would like to posits my own personal feelings on this matter of discussion.

Personally, I feel that they are completely separate 'entities' albeit with many similarities in form.
Shamanism is culturally defined, they are stewards of their communities as healers, guides, magic workers, seers, etc. They provide a service.
Witches are often the outcast, the ones who lie between the hedgegrow, they are not entirely culturally defined and they do not consistently serve their communities - if we look at history as an example, both Christian and Pagan communities regarded the Witch with abhorrence and fear. They are generally cthonic in nature. I see them as being members of a larger grouping of 'Visionary Traditions' but not the same or even related in their function. What we know of 'Shamanism' is often a watered-down, culturally-ambiguous practice that bears no resemblance to authentic and vibrant traditions still practiced today amongst their own.
While their outward mode may appear in sync - in reality I feel their mode of form and function sets them apart.


I agree they are two different animals, but I do tend to think that certain aspects of the craft, especially traveling, probably had its roots in similiar shamanic-type pactices.

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#7 CelticGypsy

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Shamanism is the term that Westerners use for the ancient spiritual beliefs of Mongolia and Siberia.
A more accurate name for these beliefs is Tengerism. Tengerism means a reverance for the spirits while “Shamanism” seems to mean reverance toward shamans. Shamans are not to be worshiped but merely respected as priests of Tengerism. Calling our beliefs “Shamanism” would like be like calling Christianity “Priestism” or Judaism “Rabbiism”.

The above quote taken from M.Witch's link resonates with me in this aspect. Primitive man feared the forces of Nature, and in order to appease the Nature properties, they sought to communicate with them, as they recognizerd the existance of sympathetic intelligences in nature with whom or what primitive man could interact.

In Tengerism, the world is alive. The plants, animals, rocks, and water all have spirits. These spirits must be respected and cared for or the land would become hostile or barren. Therefore, protection and balance of one’s environment is of utmost importance.

The above quote, gives me pause to ponder, that magic is older than religion. Working by imitation the Witch simulates in a symbolic way a set of circumstances or events, something that may OR may not require the intervention of spiritual beings. The Witch through magic creates a sympaththetic resonance between the physical world and the spiritual world. I'm inclined to believe that spiritual intelligence is more powerful than human intelligence, when I think of "religion" I think of how that relies on human reasoning and persuasion. I recall how from my RCC experiance that in the confines of that belief system, I appealed to these spiritual beings through thoughts, gestures, songs, sacrifice, words, ect. to obtain help or to shed myself of unfortunate manifestations. I've always believed in spirits, even as I post now, but I don't treat spirits as my superior, but as an ally or servant, or at my best an equal.

Personal responsibility is the second main tenet of Tengerism. Tengerists believe in a concept called buyan that is very close to the belief of karma. Being responsible for one’s own actions is the mark of an upright human being.

I don't resonate with karma, but I do resonate with RESPONSIBILITY.

The third tenet of Tengerism is balance. Balance is important to keep harmony within oneself, the community, and the environment. When things get out of balance, there are harmful effects.

How true, this is for me, I can't accept the Bright side of my Magical crafting, without accepting my Dark side of my Crafting. I seek the difference of a thought process, because for my balance to stay steady, I do not worship a diety or spirit, without seeking to use the power/alliance of that diety or spirit for my own needs, and ends. For me to act on this and be aware, to worship would no longer be magic, it would be religion. A meeting of equals in the Otherworld teaching life forms. Enlightenment on both levels for both spiritaul beings.


Thank you M.Witch for posting such an interesting link, sure gave me alot to chew on, in retrospect of my Path.

Regards,
Gypsy

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#8 MoonWood11

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:41 PM

all interesting...thanks for posting this :) helpful in understanding
~mw

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“After a while you learn the subtle difference between holding a hand and chaining a soul, and you learn that love doesn’t mean leaning and company doesn’t mean security, and you begin to learn that kisses aren’t contracts and presents aren’t promises, and you begin to accept your defeats with your head up and your eyes open, with the grace of an adult, not the grief of a child, and you learn to build all your roads on today because tomorrow’s ground is too uncertain for plans. After a while you learn that even sunshine burns if you get too much. So plant your own garden and decorate your own soul, instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers. And you learn that you really can endure… that you really are strong, and you really do have worth.” ~Veronica A. Shoffstall

#9 Autumn Moon

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:51 PM

The above quote taken from M.Witch's link resonates with me in this aspect. Primitive man feared the forces of Nature, and in order to appease the Nature properties, they sought to communicate with them, as they recognizerd the existance of sympathetic intelligences in nature with whom or what primitive man could interact.

The above quote, gives me pause to ponder, that magic is older than religion. Working by imitation the Witch simulates in a symbolic way a set of circumstances or events, something that may OR may not require the intervention of spiritual beings. The Witch through magic creates a sympaththetic resonance between the physical world and the spiritual world. I'm inclined to believe that spiritual intelligence is more powerful than human intelligence, when I think of "religion" I think of how that relies on human reasoning and persuasion. I recall how from my RCC experiance that in the confines of that belief system, I appealed to these spiritual beings through thoughts, gestures, songs, sacrifice, words, ect. to obtain help or to shed myself of unfortunate manifestations. I've always believed in spirits, even as I post now, but I don't treat spirits as my superior, but as an ally or servant, or at my best an equal.

I don't resonate with karma, but I do resonate with RESPONSIBILITY.

How true, this is for me, I can't accept the Bright side of my Magical crafting, without accepting my Dark side of my Crafting. I seek the difference of a thought process, because for my balance to stay steady, I do not worship a diety or spirit, without seeking to use the power/alliance of that diety or spirit for my own needs, and ends. For me to act on this and be aware, to worship would no longer be magic, it would be religion. A meeting of equals in the Otherworld teaching life forms. Enlightenment on both levels for both spiritaul beings.


Thank you M.Witch for posting such an interesting link, sure gave me alot to chew on, in retrospect of my Path.

Regards,
Gypsy


This resonates with me, voting it up.

Thanks for the thread and link MW.

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#10 Amberhawk

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

I pulled this off an online dictionary . According to this it seems to me that Shamanism could still fit the practice of a shaman just fine. Is it possible that Tengerism could be more localized? Sorry, this is one of those things that feels to me like some people got a little fet up with a word and decided to push to have the common name or understanding changed. Just a thought.

-ismsuff.1. Action; process; practice: terrorism.2. Characteristic behavior or quality: heroism.3. a. State; condition; quality: pauperism. b. State or condition resulting from an excess of something specified: strychninism.4. Distinctive or characteristic trait: Latinism.5. a. Doctrine; theory; system of principles: pacifism. b. An attitude of prejudice against a given group: racism.

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#11 Michele

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

I am not a word-smith, lol, so I often don't get too into the specific words as much as the understanding they evoke in my inner self. Although magic I do not find as shamanistic (magice to me is an action, something one does to obtain a desired result), I do find much of the spiritual practice shamanistic in nature and believe that it was the original basis for spiritual paths. And many will say there is no path as we are already on the now, and that to me goes hand-in-hand with the saying that it's not the destination but the journey... in many respects they are the same, yet also different.

As for personal responsibility and karma - karma is just another word and understanding for something. If one claiims they have "personal responsibility" - how are they defining their "personal" ethics/responsibility? By whose standards? Society's? Their parents? Everyone is a product of their culture and upbringing. Sometimes I think personal responsibility has become a catch-phrase to do what one wants without bothering to actually realize or confront their own responsability in the situation. If one accepts the be personally responsible, yet has no ethical code, then they're really accepting no respoonsibility at all. On what are they basing there personal ethical code, and to whom are they answering? If they have no belief system and answer to no one, or only to their mask, then they can and sometimes do change their personal ethics to allow the ego-mask to assert itself. This works in opposition of the realization of the inner self.

To me personal responsibility is realizing that what, who, and where I am is my responsibility - I am responsibile for what I have in my live and where I am in my life due to my past actions. This is not karma, but merely an understanding of my own role in my own life. If I am wet and cold at work it is becuase I didn't bother to see rain clouds and grab the umbrella on the way out the door, not becuase karma is punishing me for dropping a glass of water on someone in a past life. If I have no trust in relationships it is shaped by my past experience in relationships and my ignoreing a gut feeling that this isn't the best person to get involved with. And as long as I do not realize that then I am resigned to repeat my own past errors. Again, not karma "punishment" but a simple refusing to take personal responsibility for my own situation/s and change my choices.

M

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#12 Aloe

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:29 PM

Shamanism is the term that Westerners use for the ancient spiritual beliefs of Mongolia and Siberia.
A more accurate name for these beliefs is Tengerism. Tengerism means a reverance for the spirits while “Shamanism” seems to mean reverance toward shamans. Shamans are not to be worshiped but merely respected as priests of Tengerism. Calling our beliefs “Shamanism” would like be like calling Christianity “Priestism” or Judaism “Rabbiism”.

The above quote taken from M.Witch's link resonates with me in this aspect. Primitive man feared the forces of Nature, and in order to appease the Nature properties, they sought to communicate with them, as they recognizerd the existance of sympathetic intelligences in nature with whom or what primitive man could interact.

In Tengerism, the world is alive. The plants, animals, rocks, and water all have spirits. These spirits must be respected and cared for or the land would become hostile or barren. Therefore, protection and balance of one’s environment is of utmost importance.

The above quote, gives me pause to ponder, that magic is older than religion. Working by imitation the Witch simulates in a symbolic way a set of circumstances or events, something that may OR may not require the intervention of spiritual beings. The Witch through magic creates a sympaththetic resonance between the physical world and the spiritual world. I'm inclined to believe that spiritual intelligence is more powerful than human intelligence, when I think of "religion" I think of how that relies on human reasoning and persuasion. I recall how from my RCC experiance that in the confines of that belief system, I appealed to these spiritual beings through thoughts, gestures, songs, sacrifice, words, ect. to obtain help or to shed myself of unfortunate manifestations. I've always believed in spirits, even as I post now, but I don't treat spirits as my superior, but as an ally or servant, or at my best an equal.

Personal responsibility is the second main tenet of Tengerism. Tengerists believe in a concept called buyan that is very close to the belief of karma. Being responsible for one’s own actions is the mark of an upright human being.

I don't resonate with karma, but I do resonate with RESPONSIBILITY.

The third tenet of Tengerism is balance. Balance is important to keep harmony within oneself, the community, and the environment. When things get out of balance, there are harmful effects.

How true, this is for me, I can't accept the Bright side of my Magical crafting, without accepting my Dark side of my Crafting. I seek the difference of a thought process, because for my balance to stay steady, I do not worship a diety or spirit, without seeking to use the power/alliance of that diety or spirit for my own needs, and ends. For me to act on this and be aware, to worship would no longer be magic, it would be religion. A meeting of equals in the Otherworld teaching life forms. Enlightenment on both levels for both spiritaul beings.


Thank you M.Witch for posting such an interesting link, sure gave me alot to chew on, in retrospect of my Path.

Regards,
Gypsy


Voted this up CG.

I am not a word-smith, lol, so I often don't get too into the specific words as much as the understanding they evoke in my inner self. Although magic I do not find as shamanistic (magice to me is an action, something one does to obtain a desired result), I do find much of the spiritual practice shamanistic in nature and believe that it was the original basis for spiritual paths. And many will say there is no path as we are already on the now, and that to me goes hand-in-hand with the saying that it's not the destination but the journey... in many respects they are the same, yet also different.

As for personal responsibility and karma - karma is just another word and understanding for something. If one claiims they have "personal responsibility" - how are they defining their "personal" ethics/responsibility? By whose standards? Society's? Their parents? Everyone is a product of their culture and upbringing. Sometimes I think personal responsibility has become a catch-phrase to do what one wants without bothering to actually realize or confront their own responsability in the situation. If one accepts the be personally responsible, yet has no ethical code, then they're really accepting no respoonsibility at all. On what are they basing there personal ethical code, and to whom are they answering? If they have no belief system and answer to no one, or only to their mask, then they can and sometimes do change their personal ethics to allow the ego-mask to assert itself. This works in opposition of the realization of the inner self.

To me personal responsibility is realizing that what, who, and where I am is my responsibility - I am responsibile for what I have in my live and where I am in my life due to my past actions. This is not karma, but merely an understanding of my own role in my own life. If I am wet and cold at work it is becuase I didn't bother to see rain clouds and grab the umbrella on the way out the door, not becuase karma is punishing me for dropping a glass of water on someone in a past life. If I have no trust in relationships it is shaped by my past experience in relationships and my ignoreing a gut feeling that this isn't the best person to get involved with. And as long as I do not realize that then I am resigned to repeat my own past errors. Again, not karma "punishment" but a simple refusing to take personal responsibility for my own situation/s and change my choices.

M


It is possible that 'personal responsibility' has become a catch phrase in some circles, but just because someone uses that term and doesn't deign to provide their own definition of it the way you have doesn't automatically relegate them to the realm of unthinking catch phrase users.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#13 Michele

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

Voted this up CG.



... but just because someone uses that term and doesn't deign to provide their own definition of it the way you have doesn't automatically relegate them to the realm of unthinking catch phrase users.


No, it doesn't, lol. I don't want to get OT, I have just been wondering on the term lately and whether there is any deeper meaning to it than what is often assumed by the words alone and it seems to me that there might be. I really don't know how others define it or by what standards, or where their standards originate from... only that for me meditating on it, it seems to have that meaning :-)

M

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#14 Ayrmids_Runes

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

No, it doesn't, lol. I don't want to get OT, I have just been wondering on the term lately and whether there is any deeper meaning to it than what is often assumed by the words alone and it seems to me that there might be. I really don't know how others define it or by what standards, or where their standards originate from... only that for me meditating on it, it seems to have that meaning :-)

M



I just want to say thanks M for bringing this up, because you actually made me stop and think about just what personal responisbility is to me..... I've always followed what felt "right" to me, but what feels right to me may be wrong to someone else. I feel that I have a pretty good compass, but I can only speak for myself. Thanks for providing some reflection for me today!

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#15 Jevne

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

Inspired by the reference to Medicine Women, I am bumping this thread for further discussion. I am not saying that Shaman is or is not synonymous with Medicine Woman or Man. I really do not know the details, as that is not my Path. I'm merely curious. If others care to enlighten or share or not, that is entirely up to them. If someone with more knowledge than I happens to start a thread dedicated to the subject, that would be cool, too.
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#16 CrowMusings

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

Great thread. As a Native American only, actually as an individual member of the Mohegan tribe I can answer from my own perspective.

Our tribe has a Medicine Woman, this is her official title - she does not do shamanic work at all that I know of. Her Grandmother was our Medicine Woman and the feather were passed to her.
We also have a few tribal shamans. This is not an official title with our tribe.

I am a shaman, I do not practice shamanism as a religion in itself because like witches, you don't have to believe in the goddess to be a witch, I am be a Catholic that is also a shaman, a seer, a spell worker, etc. I find the name shaman no different than priest, rabbi, guru, doctor, officer, or any other person who is identified as a person not just deserving respect given the title, but to also identify that person to others as one you can go to with a specific problem.

I practice witchcraft but do not identify as a witch only because I think the term no longer applies, so many people are wiccans and other new agey type witch that it's easier to say what I do rather than what I am. I also know what I'm not, I'm not MY tribes Medicine Woman and would never use that title even if it's the best explanation, so in turn I describe what I do rather than use a title that is reserved for an individual as is Chief, President and other individual titles within a group.

What he describes as a belief in the spirit of everything can also be called Animism, which is how I often describe my beliefs in relationship to my Catholicity To me, it is the seeking of answers in the lower or upper worlds that as a human in the middle I can't find so I ask the help of my guides and ancestors to help me find the answers.

That's my nutshell version. A shaman is not always a witch (magic worker), or a medicine woman but either can be a shaman and a shaman can be either but doesn't have to be.

Edited by CrowMusings, 08 January 2013 - 03:16 PM.

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#17 travsha

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:35 PM

I find Tengri traditions to be very interesting - part of my family is from that region too, and I wonder how tengri influenced my family over the years (part of my fam is from Turkey).  I also think Tengri had a huge influence on very early Judaism - which originally was more like shamanism then how it is practiced today (worshiping trees and sky gods, and using music and plants to heal).  Part of my family was also Jewish, so this makes me think Tengri could have influenced that part of my family as well.  

 

Read a good book on this subject last year called "Bo and Bon" by Dmetri about the Bo Murgal traditions (tengri) and Bon shamanic practices.  Today, Bon has kinda been swallowed whole by Tibetan Buddhism, but the shamans call themselves Jenkri now to distinguish themsleves from the Bon Buddhists.  For anyone interested in this tradition, the book has a huge amount of information about the cultural and spiritual practices of that region.  It's a little dry and academic, but it is huge, and I learned a lot from it.  Really interesting info about tengri gods, offerings, and poppits ect.....


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#18 kiki

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 04:18 AM

Tengerism.org was huge for me. They described so much of what I was already doing that it helped me acknowledge my shit as real.

 

Also, I knew shamanka sounded wrong...

 

Cheers,

Kiki


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#19 mudang

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:32 AM

Sorry Blacksmith, I heavily disagree. I had my initiation and am in the deep of my people's indigenous shamanic tradition, and we've always had to charge a fee. our gods refuse to "work" through us if they aren't paid. So no, a lot of ancient shamanic traditions will require a fee of one kind or another.

And it doesn't mean anyone can pay to be one. Good, proper shamans will not say "you need an initiation" unless it's absolutely true - because this life is endless hardship. Not everyone is fated to be a shaman even if they're chosen by spirits, and this cannot be verified by the person themselves. they must be verified by a shaman of that tradition.

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