Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Some Help Here Please?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
14 replies to this topic

#1 Babooshka

Babooshka

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:52 PM

I've read another post on the difference between TW and Wicca but im still confused. The article i read ws written by one author, so may have been a bit bias, so i thought id ask you guys for a more varied answer. So basically....
- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)
- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different
- Do you cast circles?
- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped
if you could sum up any other info for me that would be great because i find wordy info hard to process. Wicca has the rede to condemn practice of harmful Witchcraft, so im guessing that TW has nothing to stop a Witch doing that if they choose so. I've always read that Witches do not worship or even believe in satan, but as i since found out, most of what i read is wicca influenced. So i was wondering, with that in mind, do any TW believe or worship satan. I'd have thought not, but i have to ask

I'm sorry for posting this, as i know you've probably had it alot before, but i had to ask, because im confused. As i said, i find it hard to process wordy text, so if you could keep it simple that would be great, thankyou :D

Here to discuss, debate, listen and learn.

#2 Guest_loki1980_*

Guest_loki1980_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:04 PM

i believe every traditional to be different, we dont worship any pecicular god/goddess, we see all entitys living or dead as equal. on my alter i have a bethame a chalice one candle, which doesnt represent much, its my fav colour, but i change it often if im a bit stressed i will light a white one etc, i have a batch of herbs, some crystals.... i dont cast a circle and i dont sweep it with a besom, i have a sacred place i go to do my work, which will be cleansed if i know the kids have been on there etc... i hope you find this useful.

#3 Jevne

Jevne

    Former Member

  • Former Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,441 posts

Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

Search the forums for the terms you are confused about, because most of these questions have been repeatedly answered in posts.

Jevne


#4 o_O

o_O

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 491 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 04:48 AM

- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)

Well, this depends on the witch, as some people need different things to get themselves focused. I have a dagger that's for ritual use only, but that's because I use it for blood rituals and I don't think it's best to go cutting up other stuff with it. Most of us here may have a mortar and pestle, but that's just a good cooking item to have. Other than that, it's all in what you think you need to get the job done. If you don't need anything, you don't need anything.

- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different

I don't. The only holiday I do celebrate is Halloween, but I love Halloween and have since I was a child,so I'm not giving it up or calling Samhain. I do pay homage to my ancestors on this night, but I do this a few times through out the year and I've found that this time of year is very interesting when it comes to the other side. I also celebrate All Souls Day and Die de los Muertos, so I get 3 good days of dead family fun. Other than that I like friday the 13ths and because my boyfriend is Chinese I also partake in a little Chinese magic during their New Year too. Nothing else though.

- Do you cast circles?

I only cast circles for 2 things: protection and to hide/mask myself and what I'm doing. Majority of the time, I have no need to cast a circle. There's no danger of anything, and I don't care what forces take a peek at what I'm doing. I'm not that kinda paranoid so I find casting a circle 99% of the time to be completely useless.

Now some other witches do, because they like to think of it as an energy gathering rink/pool, but that's not how I do things.

- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped


I don't believe I've every met a traditional who had anything to do with them. I don't worship a damned thing. I don't believe in Gods in the aspect of these omnipotent beings, there just spirits. They maybe higher power range spirits, but still, just a spirit and I'm a spirit too, but I have a body as well. I think I have just as much potential as they did/do of getting to that kinda power, so I don't need to worship them or anything else.

There are some here that do pay homage to divinity of some type or another, but they seem to have specific gods they work with.

I'm also throwing it out there that I think the goddess is the goddess but the god has to be the horned god, I think that seems to much like Satan, lol, which brings me to...


I've always read that Witches do not worship or even believe in satan, but as i since found out, most of what i read is wicca influenced. So i was wondering, with that in mind, do any TW believe or worship satan. I'd have thought not, but i have to ask

Most do not. I actual believe if you give something a face and a name and pay enough attention to the idea of something it will become real, because that's part of how witchcraft works. I don't believe he's the ultimate force of evil or anything like that, but I wouldn't put it past to be an actual entity, especially since Satan is based off the old djinn Shaytan, which kinda makes sense what you can make a deal with the devil and get wishes granted but you can't do that with God. (poking fun here^_^)

Now there are Satanic witches, but they don't worship Satan they don't worship anything. Satan is simply an archetype figure in how to not worship anything and to do what's best for you but still be respectful to others unless the show you reason not to. Most true Satanists I've known are actually pretty awesome people.

Not saying there aren't the idiots who have picnics on blood covered altars in the name of Satan, but those people are twits and are more of a danger to themselves than to anyone else, unless you put them in public office:/

if you could sum up any other info for me that would be great because i find wordy info hard to process. Wicca has the rede to condemn practice of harmful Witchcraft, so im guessing that TW has nothing to stop a Witch doing that if they choose so.


Traditional witchcraft is about knowing that you are responsible for whatever you do, so if you're fine with it do it. I was always taught to ask forgiveness rather than permission, so that's how I live. Doesn't mean I don't think it through, but I do what want, how I want, when I want. I don't need to wait until a certain time of the month or year or lunar cycle or eclipse or any damn thing else. I do it my way, cause I know my way works and gives me results. I'm sure others have the own code of conduct, but it's more like morals and guidelines.

I'm sorry for posting this, as i know you've probably had it alot before, but i had to ask, because im confused. As i said, i find it hard to process wordy text, so if you could keep it simple that would be great, thankyou :D

If you don't ask questions that you can't find answers to, how the hell are you ever going to know? You won't, so keep asking.


#5 Grimr

Grimr

    Gandreidh

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 553 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 07:52 AM

As Jevne mentioned, most of these questions if not all have been answered previously on the forum boards. The search function will be your best friend however I think that it's important to ask questions so I answered yours below. Please note that this is simply based upon my own experience within a specific corpus of Traditional European Witchcraft, so my answers may not be your answers.

- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)
*This is rather broad and would take quite some time to delve into, each tradition approaches the working tools rather differently and impresses certain mythos and mysteries upon them. I will say that the key word here being "working" tools, they all have practical albeit not always simple uses. Explore the mysteries of the tools through their traditional imagery, their presence in folklore, and their utilization within diverse traditions of the craft. There is no simple answer for this one.

- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different.
* Depending on the Witch and his/her traditional focus - I will say that most work with and utilize the shifting of the earths seasonal tides. "Sabbats" for the Traditional Witch I feel are less times of celebration and more times of specific workings revolving around the systematic congress between witch and that of the land beneath their feet. Based upon the folk memory, spiritual entities, and spiritual landscape.

- Do you cast circles?
* No. I personally cast a "Compass" which is entirely different in form, function, practice and cosmology.

- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped
* No gods are given worship in the typical sense of the word within traditional witchcraft - devotion and reverence perhaps for some; mostly those of a tutelary nature known only locally (land wise) or within the construct of a clan or covine. The Gods within such examples are not viewed as some "far-off" entities but rather very personal and very engaged with the clan/covine progress and day-to-day. I will say, as I think it's worthy of discussion, that the Wiccan or even Pagan view of Diety(ies) will be considerably different then a Witches view of deity (if at all). The Gods recognized within some forms of Traditional Craft, as mentioned, are often extremely personal and specific to the Tradition itself. So I would say No, the Horned Lord and Triple Goddess of Wicca are not apart of Traditional Craft - although Horned deities and Goddesses appearing in triply form may - but you need to consider under what circumstances.

In regards to the question regarding Satan (The Devil, Lucifer, Etc.):
I will say that one needs to consider WHAT is exactly being addressed by these titles, and what is being acknowledged. By Satan do we mean the construct of negativity? No. By Satan do we mean the Adversarial force which provides illumination? Yes. By Satan do we mean serpent in Eden who provided us with wisdom of our own inner divinity though the celestial flame? Yes. Same thing but different understanding based upon the traditions in which it is worked.

I apologize for the overly "wordy" but all of these questions are rather broad and require detailed inquisition.

G

"Nothing is truly forgotten about the Arte, for within it's own domain - The Circle - the spirits will speak to those with ears to hear." - Andrew D. Chumbley

"And thus the Flesh of Clay was flayed, and from Earth's greenery, a New Flesh made!"

#6 Babooshka

Babooshka

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:22 AM

ok thanks for your help guys :)
Here to discuss, debate, listen and learn.

#7 Michele

Michele

    The Exiled Goddess

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7,033 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 02:46 PM

I've read another post on the difference between TW and Wicca but im still confused. The article i read ws written by one author, so may have been a bit bias, so i thought id ask you guys for a more varied answer. So basically....
- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)
- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different
- Do you cast circles?
- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped
if you could sum up any other info for me that would be great because i find wordy info hard to process. Wicca has the rede to condemn practice of harmful Witchcraft, so im guessing that TW has nothing to stop a Witch doing that if they choose so. I've always read that Witches do not worship or even believe in satan, but as i since found out, most of what i read is wicca influenced. So i was wondering, with that in mind, do any TW believe or worship satan. I'd have thought not, but i have to ask

I'm sorry for posting this, as i know you've probably had it alot before, but i had to ask, because im confused. As i said, i find it hard to process wordy text, so if you could keep it simple that would be great, thankyou :D


I would guess that everyone who answers this will give you a different answer. I can only answer for myself. Don't "not do" something because you feel it may not be traditional. Do what you feel like doing and follow your impulses and then decide if what you are doing works for you. Of tools I have very few... a cauldron which is "empty", an incense burner (a pot of mud also works well, lol), a staff and a blade. I don't always use them. I rarely use them for spell work, but often use them in ritual. Casting circles - I don't use for spell work (or rarely)but do for ritual - and out of sheer annoyance I call it a "round thing" lol. To me, having worked in different trads and used both a compass and a circle, at this moment in my path I fiind they are both used for the same reason although their stories are different. Gods - some may work with them, some do not.. I work very strongly with the divine, but in reading this you will assume that when I say divine or god I am speaking of the ssame definition that you give those two words. This assumption is incorrect regardding my path.
Satan - My theory: Satan didn't exist. He was created to control people, take away their personal responsibility and thereby give power to another group of people. Unfortunately, so many millions have fed this thought-form their fear and attention for so long that said entity has now been created and now exists; however, he's the Christian's problem not mine.
Diff between TW and Wicca - in some trads a lot, in others lass than you may think. In new age there is a wide difference. In the ultimate mystery that was hidden within certain works, there's very little difference. But wicca has moved away from the mystical and the occult and become more main-stream spell-craft. The "harm none" and the "three fold" are one of the bigger diffs between wicca and tw. But to really understand why you'd need to really understand the reasoning and meaning of the sayings, not the new-age applied-and-assumed meaning.
Lucifer - is not Satan. Satan and his hell (as opposed to other hells) are of the church and Dante's Inferno (or whatever the hell that book was called where hell was first explored) which was a work of fiction. The bible is made up of the christian mythologies, and just like the Roman or Greek mythologies, they are trying to get a point across. You have to wade through all the muck and symbolism and person-adulterated add-ons to get to the jist of it. The serpent is not an animal (try going to the pet store and asking to buy a serpent)- a snake is an animal. A serpent is a mythological creature. Find the symbolic meaning to the serpent. Some witches may follow Luciferian paths, some may not. You'd have to ask the individual. Oh - and horns on gods aren't representing christian "devil" although some witches have referred to the ones they work with as "the devil" (read witch trials) but they defined it differently than the christians did... they christians just assumed all people had the same definitions for all words.
A man (very xtian) in the lunch room at work asked me if I believe in god. I answered yes. He finished his Burger King lunch happily assuming I am a Christian. I answered honestly - he just never bothered to specify which god he was referring to or even what a god is to him verses what I believe a god is. For all he knows I have a puppy named "God." Words are REALLY tricky.... be sure to try to read around and between them. People always see what they THINK should be there.

M

P.S. Ignore all spelling errors - my spelling sucks and I don't use spell-check.


#8 Oceana

Oceana

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 04:43 PM

As many have already pointed out, there is no single correct Way of the Traditional Witch. Each to his/her own, and I will also only be able to provide my personal views.


- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)

Apart from candles and incense I rarely use any tools, however sometimes I write my spell/wish/name of the person on a piece of paper and burn it in a small cauldron.


- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different

I don't. I go out with friends on Midsummer and Halloween but that has nothing to do with my Craft.


- Do you cast circles?

No.


- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped

I worship no gods.


do any TW believe or worship satan. I'd have thought not, but i have to ask

I do not believe he even exists, let alone worship him.


As i said, i find it hard to process wordy text

Why is that?

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes.
– Marcel Proust

#9 Jevne

Jevne

    Former Member

  • Former Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,441 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 07:30 PM

I had not thought about it before, but I imagine it is difficult for someone who has reading comprehension difficulties to absorb and decipher written material of a metaphysical or occult nature. Most of the reading about Witchcraft that is available and worth bothering with is pretty heavy even for someone who does not have any trouble evaluating written material. I know that there are many folks in TW that are very well-read and have advanced knowledge of inner and outer and in-between mysteries of the Universe and beyond, which is great. Having a deeper understanding of the nature Witchcraft is beneficial to Craft working; however, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the advanced stuff right away.

I have noticed that those new to the Craft get easily overwhelmed with reading the books (and posts) of individuals who are at a more experienced level. One of the unfortunate side effects is feeling inadequate and confused. Another is the tendency to "act" like you know what they are talking about when you really don't, lest you be seen as a silly newbie or a wannabe. I have been practicing the Craft as part of a family tradition for 25 years (give or take), and I do not understand half of what is being posted on this forum. And, that's fine. Occasionally, I'll ask a question about something for clarification, but Witches are not required to incorporate anything into their Craft that does not resonate with them.

Jevne


#10 Foxfur

Foxfur

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:42 PM

Hey, this answered a couple of questions I had been wondering about the circle and differentation of the tools, but didn't know how to put them, so nice one!:applause:

Edited by Georgina Lyons, 24 October 2010 - 10:43 PM.

G. Lyons { Whomever understands life, will understand me}
{ The person who rejects life as it is, cannot ever understand}


#11 Jevne

Jevne

    Former Member

  • Former Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,441 posts

Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:57 PM

According to wwww.dictionary.com, one of the definitions of tool is "anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose". Certain tools have specific purposes, ones for which they are well-suited. If you want to drive in a nail, a hammer is a pretty damn good choice. But, any heavy implement which can be swung with enough force will do the trick, too.

I know Witches, who cast spells with specially prepared magical parchment paper and big feathered quill pens within a mystical circle of blue light on the third Wednesday of the first quarter of Mars in Saturn's shadow, because they are convinced that if they don't use the perfect tools in the perfect way on that perfect day, they are doomed to failure.

Earlier today, I cast a storm-raising spell on a McDonald's napkin in the parking lot of Walmart. Is that thunder I hear? Why, yes it is.

Jevne


#12 Babooshka

Babooshka

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:31 PM

thanks all for responding, ill go through this thread and write down every bit of info later. its made it alot clearer to me :)
Here to discuss, debate, listen and learn.

#13 Panacea

Panacea

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:33 PM

Gods or goddesses are a force/emotion for me, rather then entities. I don't use tools, other than the four elements, as I don't need them. But there's nothing wrong in using them if you want. I don't charge or consecrate herbs or oils or crystals because they have there own energy anyway. There is nothing wrong with charging and consecrating things if you prefer though as it can help focus the mind. I work intuitively, finding out what feels or works best for myself. You don't have to celebrate the sabbats, or if you do, imo they don't have to be on set dates. I don't follow the wiccan rede, I don't believe in the 3fold karma, nor do i believe in the christian's concept of the devil and heaven and hell. You will find a lot of wiccan books talk about their beliefs being traditional but that only refers to the tradition of wicca, not traditional witchcraft. This can be confusing and misleading.
"Mind is the Master-power that molds and makes, and Man is Mind, and ever more he takes the Tool of Thought, and shaping what he wills, brings forth a thousand joys, a thousand ills-He thinks in secret and it comes to pass; Environment is but his looking-glass.”

- James Allen


#14 Vermilion

Vermilion

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 620 posts

Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:23 PM

I've read another post on the difference between TW and Wicca but im still confused. The article i read ws written by one author, so may have been a bit bias, so i thought id ask you guys for a more varied answer. So basically....
- How are the tools different (athame, boline,beson, cauldron, chalice, wand,sword .etc)
- Do trad witches celebrate the sabbats (samhain, yule, imbolc, spring equinox, beltaine, midsummer, lammas, autumn equinox)/ how are they different
- Do you cast circles?
- Are the same gods (triple goddess and the horned god) worshipped
if you could sum up any other info for me that would be great because i find wordy info hard to process. Wicca has the rede to condemn practice of harmful Witchcraft, so im guessing that TW has nothing to stop a Witch doing that if they choose so. I've always read that Witches do not worship or even believe in satan, but as i since found out, most of what i read is wicca influenced. So i was wondering, with that in mind, do any TW believe or worship satan. I'd have thought not, but i have to ask

I'm sorry for posting this, as i know you've probably had it alot before, but i had to ask, because im confused. As i said, i find it hard to process wordy text, so if you could keep it simple that would be great, thankyou :D



Great answers so far, here's another person's version for you... I feel that most organized/standardized religion has a way of scaring you into things. Wicca included. In particular is the fear that you that you may not be "doing it right". They accomplish this by setting rules and regulations that you must follow (tools, days, clothing, hierarchy, etc).

I feel that with TW you are free to explore your own strengths and weaknesses and will eventually come up with the way that suits you best. You will find your own "Right". There are many tried and true combinations, techniques, attitudes, etc. that are great starting points for finding your way. This is the "traditional" part of TW.

As far as tools go, each T-witch uses what suits them. Personally, I have candles, stones, feathers, bells, and incense and I use them in different combinations depending on my mood.

Sabbats aren't necessarily observed, but can be used as reminders of the cycle of seasons.

Circles are generally not used from what I have gathered, but I do use them if I'm sitting down to a longer meditation or ritual and want to keep my mind clear. I use the circle as a tool for collecting and focusing my intent and purpose. I do not find it to be -necessary- though.

As far as gods go, each person relates to the Divine in their own way. Some prefer not to give this Energy human characteristics, and some do. For me, the number 3 can be very powerful, so a godess with three life stages appeals to me. I use this image when it suits me. I believe that in all things there is balance. By this I don't mean everything is balanced, but has two sides to it. So I do believe there is a male aspect to the Divine.

We only believe in christian "Satan" as far as believing in the "horned god". The christians devil (Satan) was created in the horned god's image (horns, hooves, etc.). because Christians wanted people to associate the the pagan's godking with the devil. They wanted people to be afraid of him and associate him with hell, and convert to christianity. They do not share too many characteristics beyond image.

Good luck in your research and journey.
Red

I am my own Keeper; my own Sower, my own Reaper.
~ V ~


#15 Babooshka

Babooshka

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 28 October 2010 - 08:10 PM

Great answers so far, here's another person's version for you... I feel that most organized/standardized religion has a way of scaring you into things. Wicca included. In particular is the fear that you that you may not be "doing it right". They accomplish this by setting rules and regulations that you must follow (tools, days, clothing, hierarchy, etc).

I feel that with TW you are free to explore your own strengths and weaknesses and will eventually come up with the way that suits you best. You will find your own "Right". There are many tried and true combinations, techniques, attitudes, etc. that are great starting points for finding your way. This is the "traditional" part of TW.

As far as tools go, each T-witch uses what suits them. Personally, I have candles, stones, feathers, bells, and incense and I use them in different combinations depending on my mood.

Sabbats aren't necessarily observed, but can be used as reminders of the cycle of seasons.

Circles are generally not used from what I have gathered, but I do use them if I'm sitting down to a longer meditation or ritual and want to keep my mind clear. I use the circle as a tool for collecting and focusing my intent and purpose. I do not find it to be -necessary- though.

As far as gods go, each person relates to the Divine in their own way. Some prefer not to give this Energy human characteristics, and some do. For me, the number 3 can be very powerful, so a godess with three life stages appeals to me. I use this image when it suits me. I believe that in all things there is balance. By this I don't mean everything is balanced, but has two sides to it. So I do believe there is a male aspect to the Divine.

We only believe in christian "Satan" as far as believing in the "horned god". The christians devil (Satan) was created in the horned god's image (horns, hooves, etc.). because Christians wanted people to associate the the pagan's godking with the devil. They wanted people to be afraid of him and associate him with hell, and convert to christianity. They do not share too many characteristics beyond image.

Good luck in your research and journey.
Red


great, thankyou :)

Here to discuss, debate, listen and learn.