Witches and their popularity to begin with.

[Georgina Lyons]

Hi, i have been looking through the history forum and would like to know if anyone here might know what is the most likely reason for witches going from the most important person in society to the worst people to have near you.

In the beginning I know witches were looked upon as healers and often counsillers and guides by "clan" people. What happened that was so bad they began to be burned at the stake do you think?

 

I'm thinking maybe, jealosy, discrimination, they were the people to blame for any mishaps or false accusations and superstition? Perhaps a mixture of these things. Perhaps no1 here knows but could take a guess.:coffee:

 

Or perhaps other religions took over and God became the new belief. I think I'l research this and see what I can find:wavex: Its got me curious now. Will post it if I find anything thats got stable proof, I'l probably find a number of things, but at least it narrows it down.

Edited October 23, 2010 by Georgina Lyons

[ejfinch]

My personal take on it is that Witches were a threat to xtian power, plain and simple. The church has always destroyed, by any means possible, anything that threatens them, their power and ability to gain monetarily. That may be an oversimplification, but it rings true with me based on everything I have read, thus far.

[Royzen]

From what I understand, yes, at first I think Christianity really wasn't so hard on those who still followed the old religion. If I'm not mistaken, the word "witch" was derived from Anglo Saxon meaning "wise" (?) and wasn't in any form derogatory. So, these wise folks, druids, etc, were highly looked upon for certain tasks. Only later did the church decide to completely have everyone converted, but it wasn't that easy. There was no other way to force people to convert but to resort to violence. As usual in human history, every time problems with religion and politics collide, genocide starts.

 

Plus, to reenforce fear even more and to eradicate all remaining signs of the old religion, a new character was created - Satan. He was given an image that resembled an old pagan God, associated other horrible stories to it and voila - to this day, unfortunately, witchcraft as we know it now still has this negative association way from medieval times!

 

Hysteria broke loose, people were getting accused for everything and nothing, even for bad weather and poor crops. If you hated your neighbor, all you had to do was point your finger. Anything was valid.

 

By this time, reality had been totally distorted and whatever people left of the old religion had to keep their faith and traditions secret, underground, of fear of getting caught by the church, that sadly today this silence is still maintained - probably not of fear of the church (obviously people aren't burned or hanged anymore) but because of society in general. Unfortunately witches are still seen as green skinned hags riding broom sticks! I guess now it's just a question of educating the general public which I think would take years...

 

Then again, I could be wrong. Anyone please correct me if so.

[Georgina Lyons]

In the beginning, witches were portrayed as the leaders or councillers of small communities called clans. They gave advice, healed, helped women in labour and even predicted the future and did spells to produce good amounts of food and water for a season. When some witches failed, the communities would sometimes turn against them in anger and stone them, or banish them from the clan. Others were worshipped and valued highly by their clans. Eventually however communities grew and as they did, witches became less and less important to their people. The people began to despise the witches more when things went wrong and eventually became discriminated towards them full stop. After all, one witch could help a small group of people, but not a large village of them!

 

Roughly a few hundred, maybe a couple of thousand years later the Christians began in Egypt, led by a man called Jesus. Jesus was said to have done many great things, such as walk on water, feed 5000 people, speak to god through a burning bush, heal people and give Egypt the 10 plagues. Now it is highly possible and probible that Jesus was a witch hiding behind the false image of God, because by the Roman times witches were under persecution in Egypt by the Jews. The Jewish people were also prepared to do anything for a better life. After all, the story of Adam and Eve makes It seem likely God may have already existed by then in peoples beliefs, and that Adam and Eve were just the beginning of the Bible. Perhaps it just wasn't such a widely distributed religion back then, but one that Jesus had heard of and could use. So one day the meaning of witchcraft was twisted and changed into the form of God, a spirit that was in everything, that would help you when you prayed to it, that would welcome you after death, give you sons and food and money, etc.

Really it could have been Jesus performing magic and pretending it was being caused by God and that God was his father. It would certainly have had people in a pickle, after all, if they worshipped him they may get more in their lives, if they killed him, God could strike them to an eternity of hell with Satan. Was it choose Jesus or God?

Some began to follow him, one after the other, few by few, a bit like sheep. Some didn't believe Jesus or trust him, but they had to after he had cursed them and performed healings. Many of Jesus's doings were exaggerated and I believe, imagined by the christians who wrote the bible to protect the christian faith. Either way Jesus certainly profited from it, in the least he kept his life. However others were not fooled and I believe, very unsettled with the way things were happening. Jesus created Satan to balance out God and things evidently seemed to work from there.Funnily enough, Satan was based on a Pagan image. When there wasn't the threat of God, there was the threat of Satan. Presumably Jesus died from the kiss of Judas, a greedy man. The kiss identified Jesus to roman soldiers and Satan was presumably working through Judas.Anyway in the end he (Jesus) was persecuted and Peter denied ever knowing him, so he was tried, whipped and left for dead, nailed to a cross. People believe now that he died from shock and trauma from his injuries. Before his death, he begged his father to forgive the people, but wasn't it possible that the reason was He knew God would never punish them anyway. Perhaps he was trying to protect his own memory or a friend. Either way people were less likely to point the finger at anyone else who was friends with Jesus after his death if he asked God in full view to forgive the people. Imagine the questions if he had cursed them before death, he wouldn't be in the Bible, and his friends lives would have been at risk, especially if something had happened. As it was he prayed for the peoples forgiveness so no questions were asked after his death.

Peter may have known his secret and felt both frightened and betrayed. Imagine being caught so close to a witch when people were dying for witchcraft?

 

 

Anyway Christian belief spread and was all over the globe by the 16th century, maybe even earlier. And of course, once again many people believed to have some form of power that would disrupt the Church were put to death ( namely - witches and ordinary women accused of witchcraft). All you had to do was own a cat, and you was having sex with Satan and had three nipples! Many witches were thrown in a pond to test if they were a witch. If you floated - you were a witch and tried + burned. If you sank, chances were you were dead anyway by the time they got you out. Many people used to point fingers and have someone tried on little or no evidence, but word of mouth. Family members and friends were lost all in "Gods" name. The church was seen as Gods house were no witch could enter ("funny seeing as they would burn you whether you attended church or not") and a woman who had her way with men was certainly accused of witchcraft (suprise, suprise - by the mens wives). Men however were lucky in the way of for some reason a witches form was generally seen as female. However certainly some men still died.

During the Middle Ages:

 

* Beauty was evil.

* Happiness and pleasure were sins.

* Sex was synonymous with wickedness.

* Procreation was thought to be distasteful and disgusting.

* Misogyny was based on the idea that women could tempt men into sin.

* Women were thought to be the gateway of the Devil. This was most likely because of the Bible and the story of Adam and Eve. It was Eve who ate the apple and caused them both to be thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

 

Witches posed a threat to the christians when people sought after them for urgent help instead of seeking God. It was the threat of the people may lose their faith in the church.

 

Some of this is guesswork, the rest is what I managed to piece together from the bible and internet.

 

It is not biased towards Christianity, just one of the many ways it has been discussed and portrayed as I have no problem with Christians and hope their faith lies strong.The main discussion is the treatment of witches by Christians and other religions / people in the past.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Georgina Lyons

[Georgina Lyons]

That was all I could find out guys, My Nutty Conclusion ;) and I was writing it all at 4:40am! Time for bed I think zzzzzzzzzzz

Edited October 30, 2010 by Georgina Lyons

[Stacey]

I also think that it came from not wanting women to have power. Back then women could become the chatelains (I think that's the right word) of their husband's estates should the husbands die. It was said that the Church coveted these estates or monies but had no grounds to really take them when the men were still in residence but saw the opportunity when the women were widowed. Once they were, a carefully placed word here or there brought on hysteria and the woman was tried and killed as a witch. When this happened the estates reverted to the church.

 

Greed plain and simple. Also, some people are twisted and probably enjoyed the torture they inflicted, society has shown people who have this prediliction will often go where it is more acceptable.

 

I do think part of it probably was religious fervour, some of it was most likely fear by the townspeople but ultimately, in a lot of cases it was all about wealth and power.

 

I think a good illustration is the movie "Pillars of the Earth". it's not a witchy movie (although there is a woman in it who is slightly witchy) but it does illustrate what can happen when the Church has power and what can happen when they have subjects willing to enforce that power for them.

[Guest Elfyd]

The answer is simple, witches are vunerable to the power and influence of the "church". Those in power will always seek out the weakest members of community to be waged "war" in order galvanise their forces, usually at a time of fractured alliances or falling congregations. We are seen as weak because of our apparent lack or power and influence ourselves.

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Elf

[Jevne]

The answer is simple, witches are vunerable to the power and influence of the "church". Those in power will always seek out the weakest members of community to be waged "war" in order galvanise their forces, usually at a time of fractured alliances or falling congregations. We are seen as weak because of our apparent lack or power and influence ourselves.

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Elf

 

I am not certain that I am following your line of thinking with this. I take exception to classifying Witches as "the weakest members of community". Certain members of society have traditionally been targets for persecution, including women, the elderly, widows, the childless, the mentally ill, etc. There is limited evidence for any legitimate Craft associations to the Witchcraft Trials. As you have indicated, accusations were politically and economically motivated. People in a position of power (i.e. government and/or church affiliated) capitalized on the resulting craze. In other words, the number of real Witches accused at the time was probably relatively low.

 

The problem is that we have no way of knowing for sure. The records we do have are limited to one-side of the story. These people were vulnerable for a number of reasons; however, I doubt it had anything to do with the Craft. Several members here (at their choosing) can relate how their ancestral associations with the Craft have made them more powerful. Wealth, prestige, success in business, etc. All things are possible.

 

Jevne

[ejfinch]

I agree with Jevne. "Weak" is the last adjective I would use to describe a true witch.

[Guest Elfyd]

I agree with Jevne. "Weak" is the last adjective I would use to describe a true witch.

 

I used "weak" only to indicate their targets, CERTAINLY NOT to describe you or I.

Seeing church marquees issue pointed attacks on our bretheren knowing that their followers are easily led by ignorance and thier power of them illustrates my point.

Never weak.

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Elf

 

 

 

[Cara Dack]

The "witch hunt" didn't actually begin until the renaissance, you know that period of knowledge and enlightenment!

 

The medieval church were far more accepting, they realised that letting the people keep their old ways made plastering christianity over the top much easier. With the exception of the Spanish Inquisition, all the witch hunts were carried out by the protestant movement, certainly within the UK and US anyway. The whole movement was anti-woman, women were actually better off in medieval times than at any other period in history until the last 50 years or so.

[Brigid]

" thou shall not suffer a witch to live". This is written In the "bible"

People fear what the don't understand, they always have from the beginning of time as we know it.

So it stands to reason, if a witch can communicate with th world around her/him, this is a threat to those who can not. If they show more powere then the powers that be, they must be destroyed!

It's simple human nature............................

[CelticGypsy]

Not only this was fear based, it was about control also. The church wanted total control of these Wise folks, once they were gone, all their properties and anything of worth, was taken by the church for it's coffers, it was a lucretive business for the church and papacy. Shameful, disgusting and wrong. In my opinion.

 

Regards,

Gypsy

[Brigid]

Exactly!! Control, Profit and Greed!! And most catholic sheep have NO clue regarding the history of the religion they follow! Ignorance is bliss I suppose!

[Guest Elfyd]

" thou shall not suffer a witch to live". This is written In the "bible"

People fear what the don't understand, they always have from the beginning of time as we know it.

So it stands to reason, if a witch can communicate with th world around her/him, this is a threat to those who can not. If they show more powere then the powers that be, they must be destroyed!

It's simple human nature............................

 

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Suffer not a poisoner to live" Was the original text, it was changed by the power brokers of the time to "witch".

This illustrates fully the book in question. It was pieced together by members of various tribes, calling on myth and folklore and a little history to construct said tome. And as time has marched on the meaning and text has been changed while the adherents take what is offered to them as the word of their "God".

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Elf