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Perfect Love and Trust?


Panacea

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Hi!

 

Does anyone know where the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" comes from? Im reading a book by Christopher Penczak whos claims to be a traditional witch but he seems to use the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" a lot. Which I thought was a Wiccan thing.

 

Any responses are welcome, thanks.

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Hi!

 

Does anyone know where the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" comes from? Im reading a book by Christopher Penczak whos claims to be a traditional witch but he seems to use the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" a lot. Which I thought was a Wiccan thing.

 

Any responses are welcome, thanks.

 

 

I just thought it was from The Craft. I can totally see capitalizing off of that, as many people get involved with witchcraft because of that movie.

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Hi!

 

Does anyone know where the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" comes from? Im reading a book by Christopher Penczak whos claims to be a traditional witch but he seems to use the term "In perfect love and perfect trust" a lot. Which I thought was a Wiccan thing.

 

Any responses are welcome, thanks.

 

I don't consider him a TW, nor his works. Perfect Love and Perfect Trust as far as I know came through Wicca via Gardner.

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I don't consider him a TW, nor his works. Perfect Love and Perfect Trust as far as I know came through Wicca via Gardner.

 

 

Chris was initiated into Laurie Cabot's Coven back in 2008 as a High Priest. He travels offerning classes for the Cabot Academy of Witchcraft (?), which to me sounds hokey. He calls himself a Witch and has denounced Witchcraft as a religion, often referring to what he does as a practice.

 

The phrase "perfect love and perfect trust" was first found in a book entitled "Rede of the Wiccae", by Lady Gwen..Thompson..(I think)...which was published back in the 70's. Although to my knowledge (and reading) the phrase was around even before the book came out...and I believe it was in Gardners BOS.

 

Alayna

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The phrase makes sense in an intimate witch group setting. The choice to work with a group is a huge one, most people don't and won't do it, there are tons of reasons, most being other people! And why? Because it really does require love and trust (lets throw out the perfect part, it seems like poetic flourish). And I know a ton of magical type people, I have waded into half a dozen different magic groups. And I ran out of quite most of them, because for various reasons, I could not trust the others. In one group, started as an open coven for many magical traditions, the wiccan members took over and threw the rest out--no more of the druids, animists, and traditionals. I met up with a new magical school, and I noticed most of the members were cheating on their spouses or partners with each other in the group. I ran away from that crowd pronto--not the trustworthy sort. I looked into a newly forming magical club that was focused on trying new things, I was really enjoying it and liking a lot of the others, but a few of the elders didn't really seem to have it together and were a bit off their rockers, I knew I couldn't stay in a group where the elders were not the rock foundation of the group. However, I am a person who does grow to trust when trust is earned over time, and I very much enjoy a circle that I have been with now for over 4 years. There isn't drama or infighting we support one another and we are all very stable. The group is like chosen family and we work some very strong magic together and help one another through hard times. It is a rare gem, and I can relate after so many bad experiences with anyone who gives up on the idea or doesn't want to even bother risking it. Truly love and trust are required to work with others. And working with others is not required. In fact every witch whether they work with a group or not, works solitary most of the time, those group meet ups are not everyday! However, I am not sure why one would apply the phrase outside of a magical group context. It seems like it is diminishing the meaning of a powerful experience to just apply it to everything willy nilly. How does this phrase apply if you are always working alone?

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I remember in the past I stumbled across sites and people who talked about how magic "takes the path of least resistance" and some talk of "white magic" becoming "gray magic" because despite the caster's very good intentions, their spellwork somehow manifests itself "negatively". I kind of remember an example was something like let's say a witch casted a sort of prosperity spell but then a little while later he/she found the news that a dear relative had died and had left a large sum of money to the witch as an inheritance. Something like that.

 

The way I would apply the idea of "perfect love and trust" as someone who works alone is to not be too damned paranoid and to constantly worry about how my spells may manifest in terrible ways; to trust in the energies you work with...

 

...unless I'm just totally wrong here? Somebody feel free to correct me because I got myself freaked out over thinking about all that "magic going wrong" idea... haha ermm.gif

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I remember in the past I stumbled across sites and people who talked about how magic "takes the path of least resistance" and some talk of "white magic" becoming "gray magic" because despite the caster's very good intentions, their spellwork somehow manifests itself "negatively". I kind of remember an example was something like let's say a witch casted a sort of prosperity spell but then a little while later he/she found the news that a dear relative had died and had left a large sum of money to the witch as an inheritance. Something like that.

 

The way I would apply the idea of "perfect love and trust" as someone who works alone is to not be too damned paranoid and to constantly worry about how my spells may manifest in terrible ways; to trust in the energies you work with...

 

...unless I'm just totally wrong here? Somebody feel free to correct me because I got myself freaked out over thinking about all that "magic going wrong" idea... haha ermm.gif

 

 

Firenze,

 

That is THE reason, whenever I do a spell, that I add something to the effect that in order for the universe to hear my request, that NO ONE shall be harmed due to the request...It's just to take that "concern" out of the picture so I can focus on what I have to do without holding back!

 

Alayna

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Firenze,

 

That is THE reason, whenever I do a spell, that I add something to the effect that in order for the universe to hear my request, that NO ONE shall be harmed due to the request...It's just to take that "concern" out of the picture so I can focus on what I have to do without holding back!

 

Alayna

 

While a nice idea and a showcase for your compassion for others, putting a disclaimer in your spell, "don't let this hurt anyone", is IMO unrealistic. It's like saying "Have a nice day". You are really saying "I hope you have a nice day", because you do not have any control over whether or not that person has a nice day, unless you are going to spend every second of your day guarenteeing that they do.

 

Also, making this disclaimer implies that the Universal energies have a sense of sentience or conscience that allows them to choice whether to do good things or bad. It is like saying "Go forth. Do my will, just be good while you are doing it". Magic is not a person or entity. Think electricity, hydro-power, etc. It is a force, a power. A living power with what I believe is an awareness of existence, but not in any way a human power, meaning all of the rules of good/bad, help/harm, love/hate, etc. absolutely do not apply. For me, this explanation of Divine/Universal energies eliminates the problem of why good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good people . . . because the magic of the Universe is completely neutral. In other words, it doesn't have the ability to care or capacity to care on a human level.

 

Granted, what I have just said does not apply if you believe that magical power is a manifestation of divine origin or that the power is otherwise bestowed upon you by some outside entity. I do not work through an intermediary, and my comments are a result of that. Before casting a spell, I do think about who may be immediately impacted and use that as a gauge for my actions. I hesitate only when children or other defenseless people are involved. Otherwise, I'm just careful about what I do, so as to minimize any negative consequences. If those involved are adults, especially if they are adults who are willfully involved, I have no compassion. They are on their own.

 

Jevne

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I have in the past and will probably again used disclaimers in my spells, but it isn't of the "don't harm anyone" type. Without getting specific, if I do a spell involving humans and the spell is unlimited or has a possible effect on future things that I am not agreeable to, then I will put a disclaimer on it to limit it. I know that makes no sense the way it reads, but I can't write it down any better without getting into specific spells which I don't want to do.

 

M

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I have in the past and will probably again used disclaimers in my spells, but it isn't of the "don't harm anyone" type. Without getting specific, if I do a spell involving humans and the spell is unlimited or has a possible effect on future things that I am not agreeable to, then I will put a disclaimer on it to limit it. I know that makes no sense the way it reads, but I can't write it down any better without getting into specific spells which I don't want to do.

 

M

 

I understand . . . I think there is a difference between what you are talking about and the "and it harm none". You are still a responsible person, who casts when you need to. I don't see you allowing fear to limit your spells.

 

J

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When it comes to humans, I don't believe in perfection so that phrase holds no meaning for me. Sounds like someone borrowed from the xtian thing of "striving for perfection". But then again, I'm a grumpy ol' solitary so what do I know?

 

As far as spell disclaimers go, I agree with Jevne. The energy I work is just like electricity: it isn't sentient so wouldn't know a disclaimer from a postscript. I try to think any spell and its consequences through before enacting it and structure it as carefully as I can. I can do nothing more, once cast I don't worry about it ... I ain't perfect, after all! (And, BTW, how do you know it wasn't that relative's time to go?)

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I see now.. I assumed energy would be able to distinguish between good and bad because so many reading materials treated it as such (I know, Wiccan stuff but...I had to start somewhere! :x ). That, and I guess I didn't really fully understand the nature of the energy that we work with and accidentally attributed to it more stuff than it actually has. The responses have really helped my understanding of it, so thank you!

chakrahearts.gif

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I see now.. I assumed energy would be able to distinguish between good and bad because so many reading materials treated it as such (I know, Wiccan stuff but...I had to start somewhere! :x ). That, and I guess I didn't really fully understand the nature of the energy that we work with and accidentally attributed to it more stuff than it actually has. The responses have really helped my understanding of it, so thank you!

chakrahearts.gif

 

I am right there with you Firenze! What I am learning here is very liberating and makes so much more sense to me. It is not only empowring but forces me to think very carefully before I do anything!

:teehee:

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

I have recently had some unusual input into the "perfect love and trust" phrase. Many things in craft - any path of it trad or otherwise - have come from something/where else, and often the phrase has more than one meaning or the original meaning has been lost. It was brought to my attention that there are some places the witch can't navigate and as such, unless she is taking ancestral memories with her the witch will need to rely on specific concentrations of the current to navigate that particular realm for her until she is familiar with it and understands it enough to navigate through a completely foreign understanding of reality. I think that the PLPT phrase may be referring to how to get out of and/or safely navigate certain places/realities. Depending on where one is traveling one can have one's perceptions and understandings seriousley shaken and if working alone can get lost in that disorientation, but in the midst of utter confusion and/or fear it would need a feeling akin to "PLPT" of the entity one is with in order to react without question or thought when guided within other realms. For the witch, who is used to answering to none but her own gut feelings, to be confronted with confusion yet respond without question or logic would definitely take a deep and trusting working relationship with the entity/concentration she is working with. In many ways it may also be a test of how badly the witch is willing to work, and of what she is willing to surrender and risk. And if she decides not to risk it, I think it should be before she delves into it.

 

M (Geez... was that in English?)

 

 

Edited due to too many spelling errors, even for me, lol.

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In other words, in order to navigate the realms, one has to have a relationship, defined at least for the purposes of this discussion by a bond of perfect love/trust, with the entities who are doing the guiding? That is an interesting and seemingly logical theory, which may explain the original meaning of the sentiment. I think Gardner and his followers fancified and fluffified it, but it is at least an attempt to express the depth and strength of the bond amongst members of Trad families.

 

In modern times, I believe the use of the phrasing "perfect love and perfect trust" became a way to force Coven members to quickly acclimate to the group mindset. By giving completely of themselves, the member was hastening and apparently sealing their bond. In doing so, I think the wiccans watered down the original focus, which in my opinion was the development of a solid relationship between the person and the group and/or the person and the entity in question.

 

I just do not see this "perfect" level of relationship, regardless of those involved, as being something that can be forced with a few pretty words. The original intent may have been an expression of the feelings that result from the relationship, but have unfortunately turned into a shallow and over-used catch phrase. The words are meaningless by themselves, especially if the relationship being described has not reach a certain level of maturity. I am talking about a bond that takes a long time, sometimes years to evolve. That is something that must be deeply felt and experienced. It cannot be romanticized, as the guiding entities you speak of would certainly see through such mockery.

 

Jevne

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That is something that must be deeply felt and experienced. It cannot be romanticized, as the guiding entities you speak of would certainly see through such mockery.

 

Jevne

 

Yes, very much so. I sent you a pm which hopefully explains it a bit less crypticly, lol.

 

M

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Chris was initiated into Laurie Cabot's Coven back in 2008 as a High Priest. He travels offerning classes for the Cabot Academy of Witchcraft (?), which to me sounds hokey.

 

Whatever next. What a load of old bollocks !!!

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As an aside, but one that also is making me think that there may have been an original deeper meaning to the phrase, when I was involved with my old W group the phrase PLPT was not used as a sentence - it was always PART of a sentence and had another phrase with it which depending on how one took it could possible change the meaning v. when the phrase is taken out of context. It was also not used "regularly" but only on specific occassions.I have no clue whether or not this was the same with other groups. Anyway, as so much of the craft - occult nature and magical nature - has been lost it is, I suppose, up to the individual practioner to gather what meaning they will when looking at the surrounding circumstances and taking the map as a whole, not for a specific point. Interesting, I had not thought of that the first time I read this thread, lol. I was going back through some old threads trying to find something (which in the end I didn't find, lol)and when I read this one again it came to mind.

 

M

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I have recently had some unusual input into the "perfect love and trust" phrase. Many things in craft - any path of it trad or otherwise - have come from something/where else, and often the phrase has more than one meaning or the original meaning has been lost. It was brought to my attention that there are some places the witch can't navigate and as such, unless she is taking ancestral memories with her the witch will need to rely on specific concentrations of the current to navigate that particular realm for her until she is familiar with it and understands it enough to navigate through a completely foreign understanding of reality. I think that the PLPT phrase may be referring to how to get out of and/or safely navigate certain places/realities. Depending on where one is traveling one can have one's perceptions and understandings seriousley shaken and if working alone can get lost in that disorientation, but in the midst of utter confusion and/or fear it would need a feeling akin to "PLPT" of the entity one is with in order to react without question or thought when guided within other realms. For the witch, who is used to answering to none but her own gut feelings, to be confronted with confusion yet respond without question or logic would definitely take a deep and trusting working relationship with the entity/concentration she is working with. In many ways it may also be a test of how badly the witch is willing to work, and of what she is willing to surrender and risk. And if she decides not to risk it, I think it should be before she delves into it.

 

M (Geez... was that in English?)

 

 

Edited due to too many spelling errors, even for me, lol.

 

This may help to explain something about a recent experience I had during very deep meditation. I won't go into the details, but it has had me scratching my head since it happened. Your thoughts about it being a test really struck me.......I think I may be starting to understand what was going on. Thank you! (sometimes it takes me a while, but I, eventually, get it!) lol

Elizabeth

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I dont feel that PLPT adds anything to any sort of ritual or ceremony. Whilst all the ideas given here for the possible deeper meanings of the phrase are really good, I doubt very much that it ever had a deeper meaning - although I suppose we may never know!! I have always avoided the phrase myself, because like MW said, 'perfect love and perfect trust' just seems a little bit too ... idealistic, to me. Its a rare thing to find true perfect love and perfect trust - save perhaps between siblings, or maybe partners, but even then ... and it's used in wiccan initiation to show trust in the person initiating you or inviting you into ceremony, but I know first hand that most people who stutter the phrase out dont actually mean what they are saying. Not to start a discussion on wicca, but yes, I feel this phrase is similar to the 'blessed be' phrase .. said with no meaning, just because people think they 'have' to say it - or have nothing better to contribute - a 'parrot phrase'!! There's lots of good reasons offered by us throughout this thread as to why it might be useful to use a phrase like this in a traditional sense, but I think maybe there's a more appropriate phrase (either already existing somewhere, or waiting to be used for the first time!) which might be a bit more down to earth.

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Guest Magdalena

I agree with MW on the word Perfection/Perfect. But not just on a human level, on every level, perfection is a myth Imo, there are always flaws, we are just not always able to see them. "Perfect love and Perfect trust" no such thing Imo,

 

Anita.

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Got to admit that phrase does nothing for me, really sounds a bit fluffy.

 

I remember it being used in the film the craft as was previously mentioned but even then it didnt sound right to me but hey maybe it is a valid term to use for some people.

 

its possible the true meaning or context has been lost through the ages but even thinking it through a few times im hard pressed to want to use it in any workings and I prefer Owlblinks take on it that there is another, more appropriate phrase, waiting to be discovered,

 

Wolf.

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