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#21 GreenFaeWitch

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:25 PM

Sure thing :) To me, witchcraft requires no belief, and is most definitely not a belief system. You practise your craft, you get results. It's like taking a piece of wood and a knife and carving a boat - no belief, faith, required. See what I mean? A belief system, again to me, would suggest belief/faith in something that you don't just "know" is there because you have proof, but instead choose to believe in, choose to invest that "blind faith" in.

Hope I'm making at least some remote sort of sense.


Sorry to disagree but I feel witchcraft does require belief. If just anybody took a piece of paper and wrote $100.00 on it and lit a candle, then berried the two items in their yard, but they didn't believe it would work - NOTHING would probably happen. They didn't use intent, they didn't channel energy. And to do those two things you have to BELIEVE in energy and channeling and in spells for that matter, and in nature and the universe and all that. Many people do not believe in energy or channeling energy, it's not something they can SEE, so they do not BELIEVE. Those people would have no luck at doing any sort of magick. SO whether you want to call it belief or not, it surely is there!!!

If you're christian and pray but don't believe, I guess you could have the label of christian but you're not really one if you don't believe your prayer will be heard by god.

With us, you have to believe in yourself and your ability, but still without that there is no magick. We do have faith, because we have a trust in ourselves and in nature that what we are sending out is actually putting something in motion. Many people believe that is bogus and that you cannot change anything, so they do NOT BELIEVE.

Secondly, over the religious part. I view witchcraft like voodoo and hoodoo. Hoodoo is not a religion but voodoo is. witchcraft only has one word, but different sectors/traditions/meanings. I would fall under the" voodoo" section of witchcraft. I don't think it's right to say witchcraft is not a religion, I think people should say witchcraft does not have to be a religion, or is not always practiced as a religion. I guess that's just me being "politically" correct... Sorry.

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#22 Oceana

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:00 PM

Sorry to disagree but I feel witchcraft does require belief.

Please don't apologise for disagreeing :smile: I see your point about the craft requiring belief to work, and agree with you. However, I see it as a different sort of belief than a belief in a god for example. A religious person may (and likely will) never get any proof of the existence of his/her god, yet continues to believe in them – that's what makes it religion. If I was to practise my craft and never got any proof of it working, I'd soon give up doing it. The belief required is different; you have to trust your magic, but you believe in a god.


I don't think it's right to say witchcraft is not a religion, I think people should say witchcraft does not have to be a religion, or is not always practiced as a religion. I guess that's just me being "politically" correct... Sorry.

I would have to disagree there. By default, witchcraft is not a religion but a craft – a craft that may very well be practised with religious "ingredients" mixed into it, but it doesn't make the Craft a religion, it just makes it a Craft mixed with religion. Right? I mean, the word religion denotes worship (at least some level of it), does it not? Some form of specific form and the honouring of a deity/deities. I dare say many witches do not worship, or even recognise a god.

What do you reckon?

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes.
– Marcel Proust

#23 Guest_Magdalena_*

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:38 PM

I imagine the term `Witchcraft` defines how people perceived it and meant it to be. As I have said before, each to their own and that should be respected.

Anita :smile:


#24 GreenFaeWitch

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:02 PM

I agree - I think the term is different for every witch. I'm sure it's a debate that could go round in circles for years and still come down to "It's how you feel about it". I respect everyone's independent view on it though. Witchcraft can not be smashed into one-fits-all, as we all know

Just adding a link to site i found, it seems interesting. if you go to their main page, it states they are not wiccan... I don't agree with a lot they say, but here's the link : Witchcraft religion

Edited by GreenFaeWitch, 03 August 2010 - 08:42 PM.

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#25 witchwood

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:58 PM

I think a lot of this comes down to two things. What your definition of a religion is and how you practise witchcraft.

For me a religion is a set of ethics and beliefs by which i live my life. It is something that effects every thing that I do.It is somethign I think of or practice every day.
My witchcraft has become simply a craft and that is slowly getting mixed with Druidry which brings in the spirituality and religious aspects for me.

For some, witchcraft is and always will be a craft for others it is a religion and some will and some will not class themselves as Pagan. The main thing really is to not try and put the same labels on every body as they won't fit. People being people won't agree to what you try to label things as. Some just to be damn awkward and twatish and some because they see it differently. This is just one of the many reasons why we have trouble getting any form of official recognition in society as an official religion, spiritual path etc. Why would we want that? Job security freedom from harrassment etc.

But then these are just my views.


#26 Guest_Magdalena_*

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:42 PM

I see this one as a never ending debate, you can just keep going around in circles and end up right back where you started. Sometimes it is just easier to agree to disagree before you start questioning yourself and your way of thinking, that is when you stop listening to your inner voice and start being what others want you to be. (IMO)

Anita.


#27 GreenFaeWitch

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:23 AM

Yeah, totally agree with the two former posts!

As for the term "witch", it doesn't offend me - but I could see how some would find it a "nasty" word. I've known people that find Gypsy to be extremely derogatory, yet i still use the word, because to me it's a bad word. I'm just cautious not to offend...

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#28 CelticGypsy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:06 AM


As for the term "witch", it doesn't offend me - but I could see how some would find it a "nasty" word. I've known people that find Gypsy to be extremely derogatory, yet i still use the word, because to me it's a bad word. I'm just cautious not to offend...
[/quote]


Now... if I really wanted to be a ranting Bitch, and truely believe that you meant to attack my person because of my name.... LMAO.. see..

" words " are tricky little buggers. FaeWitch... strive for that inner conviction, that makes your path your own. If you zero in on such

intensity as a " word " and its various implications, it may just make your walk more challanged, and there are days that life can be unbearable.

I chalk experiances, knowledge attained in my memory files, if I just can't " grasp " what another is trying to convey, I don't let it bug me.

I'm sure there are those out there, that just don't get me either... but I don't give a fiddler's fart, as I just keep hoping to evolve, and someday

I just may get it, or come to the understanding of another person's enlightenment. Maybe after I've grown a bit, their wisdom may be palatable

for me. :happy:

" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#29 Jevne

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:07 AM

Sure thing :) To me, witchcraft requires no belief, and is most definitely not a belief system. You practise your craft, you get results. It's like taking a piece of wood and a knife and carving a boat - no belief, faith, required. See what I mean? A belief system, again to me, would suggest belief/faith in something that you don't just "know" is there because you have proof, but instead choose to believe in, choose to invest that "blind faith" in.

Hope I'm making at least some remote sort of sense.


Very, very well said, Oceana Dear! You always know just what to say . . .
Jevne


#30 GreenFaeWitch

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:56 AM





Now... if I really wanted to be a ranting Bitch, and truely believe that you meant to attack my person because of my name.... LMAO.. see..

" words " are tricky little buggers. FaeWitch... strive for that inner conviction, that makes your path your own. If you zero in on such

intensity as a " word " and its various implications, it may just make your walk more challanged, and there are days that life can be unbearable.

I chalk experiances, knowledge attained in my memory files, if I just can't " grasp " what another is trying to convey, I don't let it bug me.

I'm sure there are those out there, that just don't get me either... but I don't give a fiddler's fart, as I just keep hoping to evolve, and someday

I just may get it, or come to the understanding of another person's enlightenment. Maybe after I've grown a bit, their wisdom may be palatable

for me. :happy:


Hahaha, you nearly gave me a heart attack!! :vhappywitch: I sell soaps and bathbombs and my (online) shop has a gypsy theme, so i named a bathbomb "gypsy rose" ` which smells divine BTW - but i got a long letter from a romani explaining in depth how gypsy was a bad word and i should remove the name. i explained to her that i felt differently and that gypsy was a positive word that conjured positive visions for me. we came to a compromise, i kept the name but added the web address she suggested, to help the romani people in need, it's informative and allows pp to donate. So all in all it worked out and there was a mutual respect.

Yeah, i'm on the same page CelticGypsy, evolving as i go. Like i said wicca is about 7 years behind me, so i've had time to clear my mind without it being a major player - you know? I'n not new to witchcraft by any means, i'm just growing and coming into my own, and becoming comfortable with what I REALLY believe.
Others are not on my path, but on their very own, and who knows where it will lead them. I only know that although mine does have it's ups and downs, i'm very happy with it in general, and that's what really matters. once something starts to make me feel bad or just isn't right, i'll stop and then it's the end of that. :D

"There's a little Witch in all of us" My Soap Shoppe

#31 CelticGypsy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:09 PM

Hahaha, you nearly gave me a heart attack!! :vhappywitch: I sell soaps and bathbombs and my (online) shop has a gypsy theme, so i named a bathbomb "gypsy rose" ` which smells divine BTW - but i got a long letter from a romani explaining in depth how gypsy was a bad word and i should remove the name. i explained to her that i felt differently and that gypsy was a positive word that conjured positive visions for me. we came to a compromise, i kept the name but added the web address she suggested, to help the romani people in need, it's informative and allows pp to donate. So all in all it worked out and there was a mutual respect.

Well at least I know yer smiling now, and not comming off as really frustrated ! Oh.. I see you have a shoppe online with smelly good stuff, I'll just have to sashay in there and buy something. But see, how life works for the good at times, what started out as an offense, became a great jumping off place for good ? And I really like the emmotion of " mutual respect ". With a little compromise, you gained " respect ". How cool is that??? That is that " growing, evolving " thing. But don't stop asking questions, there are so many fine folks with ideas, and experiances here that will make your walk less challanging. They've been in the fire of trial and error, and not embarassed to share their thoughts on the things that work or don't work.

Have a wonderful day,
Gypsy


Yeah, i'm on the same page CelticGypsy, evolving as i go. Like i said wicca is about 7 years behind me, so i've had time to clear my mind without it being a major player - you know? I'n not new to witchcraft by any means, i'm just growing and coming into my own, and becoming comfortable with what I REALLY believe.
Others are not on my path, but on their very own, and who knows where it will lead them. I only know that although mine does have it's ups and downs, i'm very happy with it in general, and that's what really matters. once something starts to make me feel bad or just isn't right, i'll stop and then it's the end of that. :D


" The last thing you wanted a Witch to do is get bored and start making her own amusements, because Witches sometimes have erratically famous ideas about what was amusing "

 

Terry Pratchett Legends 1 


#32 ejfinch

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:24 PM

Hi CelticGypsy

Yes Green Fae Witch has some very good questions. Here I have expanded on some of the points I made in my last post.

For me it is the every day that I can find both magikal and also spiritual. The practice of the Craft is daily and very much a part of who I am. I have said that Traditional witchcraft is not a religion because I do not need a priest or any type of religious leader. I can set my own practice according to my intuition and my beliefs. Witchcraft is connecting to yourself, to the web of energy all around and through you, to sense this web of energy and be able to make changes through you and to realise that you and everything in nature is connected through this. This has nothing to do with religion in my view but is a spiritual act. For example part of my practice includes using herbs, the herbs energy and connecting to the herbs spirit. Every morning I make a mint tea, even this small task can help me sense the natural energy's around me. I can then gently nudge this energy and pour in my intent when I am making a drink and in connecting to the herbs spirit and energy I can use the full medicine of the herb. This happens to be mint so this is both a very practical and spiritual self healing. Other times I may simply just sense the energy of the herb and imagine the herb getting to work on my dodgy tummy while I drink it.

There is lots of ways I do this, simply placing my hands close to the plant and meditating and visualising the energy form the plant and all around the herb or as I said visualising the herb working. Visualisation is a gift, I find that this comes very easily. I also find that if I have a premonition or I sense what is about to happen, this can come to me with images and strong feelings. Is this a talent?? mmmm I still have a lot of work to do before I would call this a talent, A talent comes with hard work, a gift is of course something you are born with. I'm an artist and a very visual person so visualisation / true dreams as I call them and premonitions are a gift but are not something I can control at all and they don't always make sense until what I have dreamt about happens. However we all have gifts, for me this can become a Craft when you work hard to improve these gifts and learn about them through going within.

Another sense that comes easily to me is sensing what others are feeling, I think this is somehow connected to visualisation but I am not sure why, just a feeling. Also sensing energy around me, sometimes I can see energy, usually when I feel tired or very relaxed, this can again also be worked on through trance work and mediation. Again still a lot of work to do.


Wow, Chatters, so much of what you said in this post is exactly what I've been experiencing. Meditating is the only way I know to attempt to further any abilities I have or may have, and I was starting to wonder if I was missing something. Your post has put my mind to rest. I will continue on, as I have, and try to be more patient. (not one of my strengths) Thank you so much for these words, they truly have made me feel much more convinced that I am headed in the right direction! :vhappywitch:


#33 Marshy

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:34 PM

Yes I am a witch, I believe in nature and the teachin of my ancestors! Yes I am a paGan and am not religious how dare u tell me because I am pagan I am religious, about time someone looked up the origin of the word PAGAN. I may also add I am not a fluffy bunny either and have no wiccan tendicies!!
Hal wes u, folde, fira modor ! Marshy :flyaway:

#34 Guest_Alayna_*

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:28 PM

Yes I am a witch, I believe in nature and the teachin of my ancestors! Yes I am a paGan and am not religious how dare u tell me because I am pagan I am religious, about time someone looked up the origin of the word PAGAN. I may also add I am not a fluffy bunny either and have no wiccan tendicies!!



Hmmmmm...yeah, like mentioned above, we can debate this 'til (hell) freezes ova....the definitions I usually see religion as are:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
an institution to express belief in a divine power
A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

The last line of number three is what negates the term Witchcraft as a religion as far as I'm concerned...we really do NOT have a moral code. I also view religions..as man-made concepts of control. As far as the word Witch goes...I love that word. I am proud to be called one, and call myself one..there is honor in that word and let's not forget the many who died for that word...I hold it in great respect..and if others have an issue with it..it's their problem not mine. Isnt that why wicca was concieved? To change the word from Witch to Wiccan because of the "bad" connotations it held via chrisitianity? Give the christians the satisfaction of NOT using the word for the reasons they have brainwashed ppl to believe? Never.

Alayna


#35 muffin-of-doom

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 10:36 PM

Independently of definitions there are Christian witches that are witches and have another religion for example.

And me... I don´t believe in god, or gods or goddesses, maybe some archetypes or thought forms...
You could say I believe in sending and manipulating energy in the world, that´s how I know magic works. I do respect nature, but I wouldn´t say I worship it, I don´t even observe the passing of the seasons as I live in the city and the seasons are so scrambled nowadays I can barely tell them apart. I´d even say I´m an atheist witch.
Wiccans are the ones saying witchcraft is a religion (Theirs) . It´s all too common to hear them say only wiccans are real witches.
Seems to me they just do it because they want to claim the monopoly on witches...and have a real holier than thou attitude, probably also because they want to be able to use laws against religious discrimination while they do it and protect their temples from taxes.

:bullshit:


Hmmmmm...yeah, like mentioned above, we can debate this 'til (hell) freezes ova....the definitions I usually see religion as are:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
an institution to express belief in a divine power
A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

The last line of number three is what negates the term Witchcraft as a religion as far as I'm concerned...we really do NOT have a moral code. I also view religions..as man-made concepts of control. As far as the word Witch goes...I love that word. I am proud to be called one, and call myself one..there is honor in that word and let's not forget the many who died for that word...I hold it in great respect..and if others have an issue with it..it's their problem not mine. Isnt that why wicca was concieved? To change the word from Witch to Wiccan because of the "bad" connotations it held via chrisitianity? Give the christians the satisfaction of NOT using the word for the reasons they have brainwashed ppl to believe? Never.

Alayna



#36 o_O

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:27 AM

I think many witches are spiritual, but not religious. they have things they believe and pay homage to, but as far as worship and rigorous beliefs go, that's not the case. witchcraft can be part of a religion, but it's self isn't. It all depends on the witch.

#37 Marshy

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 07:14 AM

:wiccanpie:

Hmmmmm...yeah, like mentioned above, we can debate this 'til (hell) freezes ova....the definitions I usually see religion as are:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
an institution to express belief in a divine power
A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

The last line of number three is what negates the term Witchcraft as a religion as far as I'm concerned...we really do NOT have a moral code. I also view religions..as man-made concepts of control. As far as the word Witch goes...I love that word. I am proud to be called one, and call myself one..there is honor in that word and let's not forget the many who died for that word...I hold it in great respect..and if others have an issue with it..it's their problem not mine. Isnt that why wicca was concieved? To change the word from Witch to Wiccan because of the "bad" connotations it held via chrisitianity? Give the christians the satisfaction of NOT using the word for the reasons they have brainwashed ppl to believe? Never.

Alayna

:bullshit:
I just dont beleve some people!! Look up the word PAGAN and tell me what that means, I will give u a clue, it wasnt invented in this century! :wiccanpie:

Hal wes u, folde, fira modor ! Marshy :flyaway:

#38 muffin-of-doom

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:09 PM

:wiccanpie:
:bullshit:
I just dont beleve some people!! Look up the word PAGAN and tell me what that means, I will give u a clue, it wasnt invented in this century! :wiccanpie:



pa·gan
Posted Image /ˈpeɪPosted Imagegən/ Posted Image Show Spelled[pey-guhPosted Imagen] Posted Image Show IPA –noun 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. 2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. 3. an irreligious or hedonistic person. –adjective 4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. 5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans. 6. irreligious or hedonistic.


well, to my mind, pagan is just polytheistic, of course, to the monotheistic (has you can see here) it´s pretty much everybody else.



#39 Mountain Witch

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:56 PM

MoD, that's the current definition of pagan. The etymology of the word goes much further back. "Pagan" at one time simply meant someone who lived in the country as opposed to city dwellers. Since the "old" religions were eradicated first in the cities & towns by the Christians, "pagan" became attached to those that still followed the old ways - out in the country. It was used as an insult. After all, the country folk hadn't yet been "enlightened".

For purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will.
~ Henri Frederic Amiel

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#40 Marshy

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 03:18 PM

Well insult me!I am a pagan in the original sense of the word i am proud to be and always have been a country dweller. I hav also learned by experience first hand how to interact with nature and never needed fluffy bunnies to tell me!
Hal wes u, folde, fira modor ! Marshy :flyaway: