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I just finished reading your article and I must say that I found it quite refreshing to read. It is so nice to hear someone give information in a down to earth fashion. I must say that I am not one who always like frills, fluffiness etc. Finally I feel that after all these years there are opinions similar to mine.

 

Thank you...:thankyou:

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I admit that about 1/2 of the original article does not particularly resonate with me; however, the first few sections contain some interesting comments. I also enjoy the fact that the discussion did not turn into another round of "let's define Trad".

 

Might be fun to get more opinions on some of the posts here.

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I admit that about 1/2 of the original article does not particularly resonate with me; however, the first few sections contain some interesting comments. I also enjoy the fact that the discussion did not turn into another round of "let's define Trad".

 

Might be fun to get more opinions on some of the posts here.

 

I don't even bother at this point to define myself, lol. I find the personal responsibility thing an interesting concept as it is often quoted but never seems to be defined as to whom one is responsible, exactly. I have allies and things I believe in, and we work together, and they know what I do so it is seen, known. I've taken responsibility for it. Because if someone/thing sees what you do, then they know you are responsible for it. So to me personal responsibility is much more than merely answering to myself, it is being responsible to and answering to the ways of the things one works with.... their ancestors, their allies/friends, (and for me, personally, god/s). Like if the outcome of a spell is not what one planned - that person is still responsible for the outcome that DID happen, for they are the one who put it in motion.

 

I think it's also good to remember that the opening thread is an article. Written by one person. It is not subscribed to by all who practice, nor is it taken from a long-lost and well-hidden traditional manual. It is merely what one person believes and they wrote an article about their beliefs.

 

 

M

Edited by Michele
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As for the elements, I think it is worthwhile to know their meanings and symbols (for how can you work with any element in magic if you don't know what it represents, what to call upon it for?), but at this time I work with more than 4 elements. Water exists, whether one lives in Asia or Europe or TimBuckTwo, lol... it is the symbolism of that element within one's own particular tradition that I think is important when working with an element.

 

M

 

I've worked with the Elements and truely enjoy the alliance with them. I can see, taste, touch, smell and feel them. They ring true to me. All of them, except Air, I can not see it, but I do see the manifestation of it with my other senses. It's still truth to me. When I have the nudge to learn more from the Air Element, I study the steam boiling in the tea pot, I can run a spoon through the steam, collect the droplets of air/water, and stir that Element of Air into a mixture I am crafting. I'm still pursuing always the Element of Air. lol !

 

 

Regards,

Gypsy

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Hello!

 

I have a lot of question.

 

What is Way of Wyrd?

 

I wish I knew how to perform exercises on a hedge-riding. I've practiced witch's foot but I read that I have to leave an offering to the spirits...

 

How do you contact of spirits and ancestor?

 

Where I can find books of bennigers? In Spain, it´s impossible!

 

Thanks!!

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Sorry to revive a very old thread, but I can't understand this bit

 

"I don't believe that our future has been laid out for us... Free will is also not believed in..."

 

Surely if you don't believe in free will, ie that you can, within the limitations of the present, act as you wish, that is the same as saying that the future is laid out. Free will is the opposite of fate, so to disbelieve in one surely means the belief in the other? Can someone explain what I'm not understanding?

 

Aside from this confusion, it was a great and informative post, much appreciated and needed!

Edited by Forester

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I didnt re-read the whole of thread but that's just one opinion. Personally, I think it's a combination of both - some things are meant to be and others, not so much.

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I re-read that bit about free will, and I think perhaps it was referring to the neo-pagan belief about not imposing on someone else's free-will. But I don't know as I am not the writer of this article. But also remember this article is not a description of TW - it is a description of one person's interpretation of TW. There are a multitude of beliefs and paths of TW. So re the article, some people agree with some of it, some people agree with all of it, and others may or may not agree with any of it. It is merely an article; it is not "the Laws of TW". So I wouldn't bang your head against a wall trying to define it to the nth degree... :-)

 

M

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Sorry to revive a very old thread, but I can't understand this bit

 

"I don't believe that our future has been laid out for us... Free will is also not believed in..."

 

Surely if you don't believe in free will, ie that you can, within the limitations of the present, act as you wish, that is the same as saying that the future is laid out. Free will is the opposite of fate, so to disbelieve in one surely means the belief in the other? Can someone explain what I'm not understanding?

 

Aside from this confusion, it was a great and informative post, much appreciated and needed!

 

I cannot see inside your mind, Forester. Maybe this might help.

 

Free Will: Make a left turn - You live.

Make a right turn - You die in a head on collision.

 

The future is ever- changing depending on what we do presently. Left or Right turn.

 

Take Death for example: We are all Fated to die, however Free Will exists.... until 'fate' steps in.

Edited by Nikki
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Take CPR for example: you die. Heart stops, not breathing- that is enough to declare someone dead legally period. BUT you happen to drop dead near someone able to do CPR and it happens to work. So were you fated to die, but the rescuer altered what "should" have happened.... OR must you have been fated to live since you were fortunate enough to have a rescue worker nearby?

 

I would say it is bendable and some things more so than others. In this case you may have been fated to collapse and die temporarily so to speak, but what could have been permanent death was thwarted by CPR. Now was that luck? Was it someone's protection spell looking out for you? Were their other forces helping your spirit not leave your body? Their are literally infinite possibilities. Infinite opportunities to change an outcome. And free will seems to rule the day. Or does it? Was everything aligned just so that you didn't die because it "wasn't your time"- a.k.a. Fate. I tend to think there are so many factors at play below the tip of the iceberg that we can observe that it is to a degree unknowable.

 

I'm going with Yes, both. When all factors seem to indicate one thing should have happened but something else does- that tends to look like fate, and I think sometimes is. But, I strongly believe free will is dominate most of the time. Hell as with the above example everything could appear to be pushing events one direction yet the result is a surprise and it still not be fate- it COULD be that an ancestor or some other factor intervened on your behalf- which is again- free will.

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I think everyone has an absolute expiration date. When Fate says you're done - you're done. This is a belief and not a provable fact.

 

I also think that there can be many 'exit points' along the paths we walk. Times when Death comes a knocking but we have the choice to stay or go. It can be as simple as putting down the razor blade and calling a friend instead (was that a spirit or a nudge that perhaps, it wasn't time?) Or as dramatic as a bunch of doctor celebrating 'it's a miracle - we don't have a medical/scientific explanation'. That's obviously not the entire scale, just a couple examples.

 

The CPR thing - every high schooler in the states is taught CPR. The Red Cross holds class after class. They really do go out of their way to make sure that as many people as possible know how to do it. People can even fake it just from watching tv. If there is anyone around when a person falls over dead - I think the chances are greater that someone in the monkey gallery does know CPR than not.

 

These are huge topics within themselves - fate, death, rebirth, and there is no one single point of view under the heading of Trad Craft.

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My mother always says there is nothing you can do to make your life longer, but there is a hell of a lot you can do to make it shorter. I agree with that. I think we all have a specific expiration date, but that date can be moved up depending on the decisions we make and what we do with our lives, and even just being in the wrong place at the right time.

 

M

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RoseRed: Wow !!!

 

To me, the idea of many Exit Points during ones lifetime is a very profound one.

 

Many years ago I had a vision that taught me : In order to actually die (past the point of No Return) one's mind, body and soul must be in 100% agreement.

 

Without the complete consent of all 3 (mind, body; soul) ... the 'struggle' between life and death occurs... until an 'agreement' is made.

 

Personally, I didn't expect this' idea' to stand-the- test-of-time, but it has, so far.

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@Rosered. I was using the CPR thing as an example to illustrate a point about different variables and different ways to view those variables. You could fill in the blank with a scenario you find likely and the points remains the same.

Edited by Oroboros

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I was using the CPR thing as an example to illustrate a point

 

 

I wasn't.

 

It's one of the very few things that bring people back from the dead. And sometimes, it's still a choice, in the end.

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Thank you. Just thank you. Most of this I've felt, other parts I've learned and some of it I'll chew on. This is likely the most concise description and explanation I've seen to this point. So, again, thank you.

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Guest SorcererSupreme

Admin-

Thanks for the book references.

I've always loved astral projection and am constantly in search of new material.

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