80 replies to this topic

[RoseRed]

I didnt re-read the whole of thread but that's just one opinion. Personally, I think it's a combination of both - some things are meant to be and others, not so much.

[Michele]

I re-read that bit about free will, and I think perhaps it was referring to the neo-pagan belief about not imposing on someone else's free-will. But I don't know as I am not the writer of this article. But also remember this article is not a description of TW - it is a description of one person's interpretation of TW. There are a multitude of beliefs and paths of TW. So re the article, some people agree with some of it, some people agree with all of it, and others may or may not agree with any of it. It is merely an article; it is not "the Laws of TW". So I wouldn't bang your head against a wall trying to define it to the nth degree... :-)

M

[Nikki]

Sorry to revive a very old thread, but I can't understand this bit

"I don't believe that our future has been laid out for us... Free will is also not believed in..."

Surely if you don't believe in free will, ie that you can, within the limitations of the present, act as you wish, that is the same as saying that the future is laid out. Free will is the opposite of fate, so to disbelieve in one surely means the belief in the other? Can someone explain what I'm not understanding?

Aside from this confusion, it was a great and informative post, much appreciated and needed!

I cannot see inside your mind, Forester. Maybe this might help.

Free Will: Make a left turn - You live.
Make a right turn - You die in a head on collision.

The future is ever- changing depending on what we do presently. Left or Right turn.

Take Death for example: We are all Fated to die, however Free Will exists.... until 'fate' steps in.

Edited by Nikki, 11 October 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[Oroboros]

Take CPR for example: you die. Heart stops, not breathing- that is enough to declare someone dead legally period. BUT you happen to drop dead near someone able to do CPR and it happens to work. So were you fated to die, but the rescuer altered what "should" have happened.... OR must you have been fated to live since you were fortunate enough to have a rescue worker nearby?

I would say it is bendable and some things more so than others. In this case you may have been fated to collapse and die temporarily so to speak, but what could have been permanent death was thwarted by CPR. Now was that luck? Was it someone's protection spell looking out for you? Were their other forces helping your spirit not leave your body? Their are literally infinite possibilities. Infinite opportunities to change an outcome. And free will seems to rule the day. Or does it? Was everything aligned just so that you didn't die because it "wasn't your time"- a.k.a. Fate. I tend to think there are so many factors at play below the tip of the iceberg that we can observe that it is to a degree unknowable.

I'm going with Yes, both. When all factors seem to indicate one thing should have happened but something else does- that tends to look like fate, and I think sometimes is. But, I strongly believe free will is dominate most of the time. Hell as with the above example everything could appear to be pushing events one direction yet the result is a surprise and it still not be fate- it COULD be that an ancestor or some other factor intervened on your behalf- which is again- free will.

[RoseRed]

I think everyone has an absolute expiration date. When Fate says you're done - you're done. This is a belief and not a provable fact.

I also think that there can be many 'exit points' along the paths we walk. Times when Death comes a knocking but we have the choice to stay or go. It can be as simple as putting down the razor blade and calling a friend instead (was that a spirit or a nudge that perhaps, it wasn't time?) Or as dramatic as a bunch of doctor celebrating 'it's a miracle - we don't have a medical/scientific explanation'. That's obviously not the entire scale, just a couple examples.

The CPR thing - every high schooler in the states is taught CPR. The Red Cross holds class after class. They really do go out of their way to make sure that as many people as possible know how to do it. People can even fake it just from watching tv. If there is anyone around when a person falls over dead - I think the chances are greater that someone in the monkey gallery does know CPR than not.

These are huge topics within themselves - fate, death, rebirth, and there is no one single point of view under the heading of Trad Craft.

[Michele]

My mother always says there is nothing you can do to make your life longer, but there is a hell of a lot you can do to make it shorter. I agree with that. I think we all have a specific expiration date, but that date can be moved up depending on the decisions we make and what we do with our lives, and even just being in the wrong place at the right time.

M

[Nikki]

RoseRed: Wow !!!

To me, the idea of many Exit Points during ones lifetime is a very profound one.

Many years ago I had a vision that taught me : In order to actually die (past the point of No Return) one's mind, body and soul must be in 100% agreement.

Without the complete consent of all 3 (mind, body; soul) ... the 'struggle' between life and death occurs... until an 'agreement' is made.

Personally, I didn't expect this' idea' to stand-the- test-of-time, but it has, so far.

[RoseRed]

At least until that final exit point.

[Nikki]

Well duh !!! lol

[Oroboros]

@Rosered. I was using the CPR thing as an example to illustrate a point about different variables and different ways to view those variables. You could fill in the blank with a scenario you find likely and the points remains the same.

Edited by Oroboros, 07 December 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[RoseRed]

I was using the CPR thing as an example to illustrate a point

I wasn't.

It's one of the very few things that bring people back from the dead. And sometimes, it's still a choice, in the end.

[Ivyfrein]

Thank you. Just thank you. Most of this I've felt, other parts I've learned and some of it I'll chew on. This is likely the most concise description and explanation I've seen to this point. So, again, thank you.

[AuroraFenris9]

I agree. Simple....intellectually written...and states everything very clearly and concisely. Very interesting article

[Solanaceae]

Bumping for the new members, enjoy!

[UnMasked1467]

Great post, very informative and resonated with me in a big way... I'm a big believer in the dual nature of magic and forces in general-- you can't have light without darkness, creation without destruction, or positive without negative. It's all about keeping the balance, as far as I can see. And sometimes, people need to be taught a lesson. I really liked how straightforward and clear your post was. Thank you!

[steffykaye]

So much to go on, and learn, and discuss I love it!

My thought processes on this subject are hard to put into words, so I apologize if I seem to be rambling. I learn and live a lot of my life based on the phrase “what if...”

For example, “what if time really is fluid and it’s possible for us to function outside of its flow?” That question lead me to the belief that the times when I see or sense my ancestors around me, may be when they were astrally projecting from their position in the time line and came to my current reality for a brief time.

Going further on that supposition, I believe it is possible for us to access all of our incarnations as we need them to learn and to grow.

As witches we have a responsibility to the power we have. Not a responsibility to the concepts of good or evil but a responsibility to use what we have. I’ve been in a situation where by my choice I suppressed my magic and it almost killed me. To me, there is nothing worse than denying who and what we are and refusing to use what we have.

Since I am an animist, I don’t believe in karma the way it is taught by most. Karma is not a sentient being, so therefore it is not a “bitch” it is not out to get you and it does not require you to make good on some sort of debt you owe. Karma, although I don’t usually use that term, is nothing more than a principle of nature. You grow what you plant. Or to paraphrase one of Newton’s laws, there is a reaction to everything we do. It’s the natural ebb and flow of the Universe though, it’s not some separate force bent on punishing us for “wrongdoing.”

Those are just some of my musings on some of the subjects brought up in this thread.

[TubalQ]

Interesting post and lots of interesting discussion

[FancyShadowCat]

Similarly to several here, I believe that some events are woven more strongly into the web of wyrd than others. Some death events can be rewoven, however there will be one to strongly woven for even the most powerful beings to write over.

[PrimalWitch]

Without the complete consent of all 3 (mind, body; soul) ... the 'struggle' between life and death occurs... until an 'agreement' is made.

Out of curiosity, how would this approach be used in regards to ghosts? Would you consider this type of existence to be a form of struggle occuring?

This topic of fate is something I'm quite interested/fascinated by but haven't really formed a solid belief/opinion about.


Fyi:
I've been a member for a while now but am a lurker type naturally (strong hermit tendencies lol). Just thought maybe I should mention that for netiquette purposes.