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Sandy

Universal Energy or God

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...OK so Gods? metaphors or deities? Natural energies or biorhythms...do we generate them or just receive them?

 

For me, we do not generate the energy, the energy is generated due to the existence of the divinity. So the energy itself is not the divinity but a manifestation of the divinity's existence.

 

I'd agree with the theory that this energy is all around and can be 'effected' by esoteric manipulation, witchcraft. Giving it names, Gods, personalities and specific powers is a useful and human way to organise our spells.

 

For me, I do not name the energy as a god, but see it more as a direct result of the existence of the god. I do not assign a specific power to the energy but only that it exists and is used in magic by interacting with the energy and giving it direction other than it's original direction.

 

It distills focus and forces intention and expectation a 'will' on these powers. And without that you ain't going to achieve much.

 

I do believe that magic can be done without any diefic or religious belief. I also acknowledge the existence of the universe, starry realms, etc., but I base my works on what I can see from where I am (Earth), because it is where I am, lol. So I don't look up to the skys and stars for any diefic input; I tend to look down, from where I stand (on the planet) for my interpretation of and interaction with divinity. I guess I'm not sure what your actual question/statement is,  lol, or whether it was just a musing....?  Anyway, good to speak with you :-)

 

M

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Galen, I entirely agree with you but while I think your explanation holds water for experienced casters I still think that its a big ask for anybody to believe wholeheartedly in magic before they have seen it work for themselves. Those first tentative steps on a magical path are by their very nature going to be less confident than those of somebody who has proven for themselves to themselves that magic yields results. Those first few spells must be motivated by something other than assured confidence...

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah ....... its called being a witch. Just saying

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Your input is just as valid. hooded one, so don't be going all paranoid on us! LOL Many of our members have strong opinions and are not afraid to express them. And where there is disagreement, it should not become a personal attack. If any threads were to degenerate the Moderators try to resolve it as quickly as we can. Another thing to remember with this site is that there is a large percentage who read, think and don't necessarily post. I enjoyed your post for example and have been thinking for a while about the trends in the scientific world and the links to what Witches already know. Keep posting and don't take replies personally, but use them to generate debate. 

 

Incidentally my comments are also generalised to members, they are not only specifically aimed at you, hoodedman, just prompted by what you said. Hope that makes sense.

Thank-you Tana, for your kind words...but don't worry I'm pretty thick skinned. No offence was taked by me.

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These are just my thoughts and opinions on working magic from my experiences..... the person must firmly believe the spell or ritual WILL be successful before working it.

 

Having confidence and self-ability is a large part of what we do in my opinion. I can't see someone saying.. "Well I'll give this a shot", and them being successful with their spell or workings.

 

 

I believe as Witches further their walk on their respected Path, that what is quoted above becomes a fostering of personal abilities. They may not become Masters at something, but they sure have abilities. One has the ability to read and research materials given at the time for use in future endeavors.  It's much more easier in these times to build achievement in what the Witch resolves to incorporate their thought process into an actual working, at least this holds true for me. :smile:

 

Regards,

Gypsy 

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Galen, I entirely agree with you but while I think your explanation holds water for experienced casters I still think that its a big ask for anybody to believe wholeheartedly in magic before they have seen it work for themselves. Those first tentative steps on a magical path are by their very nature going to be less confident than those of somebody who has proven for themselves to themselves that magic yields results. Those first few spells must be motivated by something other than assured confidence...

 

This being the reason ( I believe)  many new to the craft find some "comfort" in aligning with the energies of gods and deities. Once a witch has been walking along the path for sometime, experiencing success and failures, self confidence grows and the attachment to working with those energies often wanes and it becomes an attachemnt of familiarity or senimentality.

 

On the note of science, I have graduate degrees in science and function on a daily basis in the world of scientific study and inquiry, random controlled trials and the applications of said findings. I find science to be a fascinating and challenging career and when it comes to my craft, it has only secured my belief in what I know as a witch to be true.

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This being the reason ( I believe)  many new to the craft find some "comfort" in aligning with the energies of gods and deities. Once a witch has been walking along the path for sometime, experiencing success and failures, self confidence grows and the attachment to working with those energies often wanes and it becomes an attachemnt of familiarity or senimentality...

 

You know, I had originally written a different answer, but in retrospect, I think you may be right. Not because being proficient in the craft means having or needing no religious belief, but because the very way it is presented assumes that the newcomer is "using" gods solely to boost their confidence as a witch for spell-work, and if that is the case then there is totally no true relationship with - much less understanding of - divinity. So yes, the god would be tossed aside later, or become a nice-but-forgotten teddy bear in the closet of their mind. Though I doubt any real connection was ever made - no god I have heard of (and granted there are thousands) would be willing to be used at whim for spell-work...I think it is rather arrogant of humans to believe that gods actually can be used in that way. To think so rather makes the human the god and the god a puppet. 

 

M  

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I would hate for any newcomer to read this and get the impression that a sign of becoming proficient in the craft is losing their relationship with divinity. People are religious or not as they choose, but "using" a divinity for spells is hardly a relationship and to be honest, I seriously doubt it works. Most divinities would not put up with it and I doubt any newcomer (or old-timer) is strong enough to force a god to do their bidding on a whim.

 

M  

Not exactly what I meant and perhaps my fault for not being more clear.. What I was meaning to convey was those who lack the self confidence to raise energies, and manifest magical workings as a solo practitioner (ika: a newbie uncertian of their own abilities without assistance ) often align themselves and call upon the assistance of a god or deity as an insurance if you will,  for the working to become reality.. it is a way to ensure results outside of self.. but once they become more proficient in their workings  and they are more secure in their own abilities outside of working with said deity ,they begin to see the relationship as one of respect and not of necessity. A witch of true measure ( in my opinion) does not need to align themselves with an outside deity in order to be affective and effective. I did not say they lose a connection or relationship with a chosen deity but it evolves into a mutual combination of efforts and not a dependent relationship..

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I respect the kind of relationship that Michele describes . . . No, it is more about my respect for her, as I sense and have seen the beauty and sincerity of her words and actions.  I do not afford all people the same tolerance.

 

I do not believe in the xtian version of "god", as in the all-seeing, all-knowing, punish you, if you are bad; make life all better if you pray harder entity . . .

 

I do, however, recognize that there are entities, older, wiser, and with powers greater than my own . . . .  So, it confuses me that some people seem to think that acknowledging greater powers translates into having to bow down and kiss Deified ass?

 

Really, I know a woman, who is older and a whole helluva lot smarter than I am.  I could choose the cultivate a relationship with this woman, partake of some of her knowledge, get to know her, share with her . . . much the same way that Michele and others build a relationship with their Divinity.  But, just because something exists (and you acknowledge that existence) does not mean that you necessarily has to do anything with that knowledge. 

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. . . Though I doubt any real connection was ever made - no god I have heard of (and granted there are thousands) would be willing to be used at whim for spell-work...I think it is rather arrogant of humans to believe that gods actually can be used in that way. To think so rather makes the human the god and the god a puppet. 

 

M  

 

This makes sense, Michele.  If I were a "god", (and you are all lucky that I am not) :twisted_witch: , I would get pissed, if some new-agey twat kept invoking my name to fix their pathetic, little lives. 

 

I don't know why, but this actually made me think of people in school, who befriend the smart kid, so that they can get the answers to the test.  It speaks to Ldy's comments about people 'using' Divine intervention, thinking it will make up for what they are lacking. 

 

Not only rude, but kinda sad . . .

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Don't make me hurt you:
This makes sense, Michele.  If I were a "god", (and you are all lucky that I am not) :twisted_witch: , I would get pissed, if some new-agey twat kept invoking my name to fix their pathetic, little lives.

 

Sound point there, totally agree! If they tried casting a circle in the driving rain, feeling the powers and the Guardians and being at their mercy, they wouldn't need to rely on a 'word'. But they don't do they?

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You know, I had originally written a different answer, but in retrospect, I think you may be right. Not because being proficient in the craft means having or needing no religious belief, but because the very way it is presented assumes that the newcomer is "using" gods solely to boost their confidence as a witch for spell-work, and if that is the case then there is totally no true relationship with - much less understanding of - divinity. So yes, the god would be tossed aside later, or become a nice-but-forgotten teddy bear in the closet of their mind. Though I doubt any real connection was ever made - no god I have heard of (and granted there are thousands) would be willing to be used at whim for spell-work...I think it is rather arrogant of humans to believe that gods actually can be used in that way. To think so rather makes the human the god and the god a puppet. 

 

M  

Oh I am completley on board with you in doubting any real connection or partnership in such cases. I was merely musing on one of the reasons I believe those new to the craft are often desperate to find a "god/goddess", hoping from one to the other based on what they want done or the latest book they have read... its almost a 'god de jour" approach. As J so eloquently stated "rude and kinda sad.."  And yes perhaps using the word "relationship" was not a wise choice.

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Man, we cant even understand gravity, particles, atoms, radiation, light, our own bodies or our own planet.....  How could we understand something infinite like God?

 

It's funny, cuz even the Bible describes God as infinite and formless, but believers in the Bible try to make him into a bearded white guy in the clouds....  Reading Kabbalah or Gnostic descriptions of God actually make sense to me sometimes, but if I ever try to read a modern Christian idea of God, it sounds like something a 10 year old would come up with....

 

To me, descriptions similar to the Tao make sense (Kabbalah and Gnosis are kinda similar and make almost as much sense if you leave out the associated dogma).  Indigenous descrptions of "great spirit" or something similar make loads of sense to me.  The more abstract an undefined God is, the more accurate I think the description is sometimes....  As soon as you try to limit what God can or cant be, I think you are missing the point, and are just preaching dogma and opinion.....

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Man, we cant even understand gravity, particles, atoms, radiation, light, our own bodies or our own planet.....  How could we understand something infinite like God?

 

It's funny, cuz even the Bible describes God as infinite and formless, but believers in the Bible try to make him into a bearded white guy in the clouds....  Reading Kabbalah or Gnostic descriptions of God actually make sense to me sometimes, but if I ever try to read a modern Christian idea of God, it sounds like something a 10 year old would come up with....

 

To me, descriptions similar to the Tao make sense (Kabbalah and Gnosis are kinda similar and make almost as much sense if you leave out the associated dogma).  Indigenous descrptions of "great spirit" or something similar make loads of sense to me.  The more abstract an undefined God is, the more accurate I think the description is sometimes....  As soon as you try to limit what God can or cant be, I think you are missing the point, and are just preaching dogma and opinion.....

 

 

 

I have to disagree. Mankind understands the list you gave quite well. In fact, I think through science understanding of everything in the universe is entirely possible, but our access is limited at the current point in time. While I feel there is an underlying energy to both the order of life and the chaos of entropy, I do not recognize this presence as a god, but as an energy and a dynamic to all that exists, that everything living and non-living uses in some way. The first, but poor, idea I can give describing this idea is the internet. Accessible by many and in numerous ways, omnipresent (ok, that's a little dramatic for the "internet" reference) but not sentient by any means. Any rules that apply to all things living and nonliving within this energetic system do not matter when considering that underlying energy. Justice, mercy, karma, punishment, respect, up, down, light, temperature, distance, orientation, life, death  - these are rules of things within the system, not the system itself. It only serves as an energy tap because, like organisms adapting to the environment around them, things within this system adapted to it in order to utilize it. The only energy "rule" which matters universally is balance of creation/destruction energy (and I mean this in a literal, chemical sense, as in the laws of physics and thermodynamics, not primarily in a spiritual sense,) and this "rule" has no direction on its own aside from the direction which gives the least resistance. If people wish to call this god, so be it, but I do not recognize it as such. I recognize it, honestly, as the universe which science seeks to describe.

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Well, science certainly claims to understand the above list I gave, but each of the items I listed has aspects that are either ignored, or are misunderstood, or recently were shown to be different then the leading theories.  For example: light was thought to be the fastest thing in the universe, but since then, they have discovered the so-called "god particle" which travels faster then light and makes E=MC2 completely wrong.  This was just 3 years ago.  No one knows where electrons in atoms go when they pop in and out of existence, or why they do that.  Ask a scientist if radiation therapy will kill you or the cancer first, and they wont be able to answer you except with a guess.  What about how our bodies work?  Really?  We understand everything about our own bodies and minds?  Not so much.....  Lots of things we dont understand about the list I made.  Yes, we know those things exist, and understand bits and pieces of them, but each has an aspect that baffles science.  

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Misunderstood doesn't imply "can never be understood," but rather "needs more time, studies, and perspective". I mean, the accepted concept of handwashing didn't even pick up until the mid-late 1800's. Science is not assuming knowledge of all things. Rather, it insists that through a systematic approach of educated trial and error, the truth of all things can be uncovered. Besides, discovering something scientifically doesn't take away its power, spiritual or not - instead, it has the potential to GIVE it power, through its understanding. So I'm not sure why science is seen as the opposite to all things spiritual/god-related. The only thing science threatens is the "mystery" of things currently unknown. I personally connect the universe through science's eyes as the god-like figure/energy many people/cultures believe in. If anything is godlike, I suppose it would indeed be that energy. However, I can only see it as an energy, nothing more, nothing less. I also think seeing this energy as an energy will allow humanity the maximum ability to utilize it and understand the world around them. Knowledge and will are power.

 

Many fields of science, including quantum physics (which includes the Higgs boson you mentioned), have blank spots which are constantly being illuminated. I'm glad you brought up the Higgs boson, actually. It may very well provide means to an answer regarding some of the phenomena observed at a quantum level. Disappearing electrons was explained as well, as a result of the a better understanding of antimatter (antineutrinos obliterate them. BAM! Good bye electron) and may also be explained more thoroughly through the Higgs boson. These blank spots in knowledge are not "baffling science", they are what fuels science. They are why science exists, and if there are more blank spots, there's merely more to "science". Science = discovery. The entire point of science is to venture into those dark spots and bring light to it, in order to bring with it understanding. I don't see why science is regarded as illegitimate or as opposition to spirituality.

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This is like discussing politics at a dinner party during an election, only more personal. How people experience God / Energy is something they cannot be talked out of by using someone's logic or experience.

 

Personally, I find it interesting that the more we learn about the cosmos, the more god-like and magical it becomes :) 

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Good point, Nikki. Spiritualism is indeed a personal journey, and an intricate part of many people's development.

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Ravenshaw - I agree with what you wrote.  I did not mean to say those things can never be understood, but just that we dont understand them fully yet.  I especially think that we do not understand ourselves as well as many of us think we do.  Just saying that I would expect an infinite spiritual force that drives the entire universe to be even harder to understand then all the other things we find difficult.  We only know and see a small part of our universe - not only the physical universe, but mental and spiritual universes too.  If we only know and see a fraction of the physical universe, then how much do we really see and know of God/Spirit/Whatever you want to call it?

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^ If we only know and see a fraction of the physical universe, then how much do we really see and know of God/Spirit/Whatever you want to call it?

 

So collectively true.

 

^ Just saying that I would expect an infinite spiritual force that drives the entire universe to be even harder to understand then all the other things we find difficult. 

 

I also find other people's (Witch or otherwise) idea of God/Deity/Energy painfully narrow; dictatorial sometimes, too. At worst -- dogmatic.   

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I also find other people's (Witch or otherwise) idea of God/Deity/Energy painfully narrow; dictatorial sometimes, too. At worst -- dogmatic.   

 

I agree entirely with this as do I suspect most dinner party hosts...

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Ravenshaw - I agree with what you wrote.  I did not mean to say those things can never be understood, but just that we dont understand them fully yet.  I especially think that we do not understand ourselves as well as many of us think we do.  Just saying that I would expect an infinite spiritual force that drives the entire universe to be even harder to understand then all the other things we find difficult.  We only know and see a small part of our universe - not only the physical universe, but mental and spiritual universes too.  If we only know and see a fraction of the physical universe, then how much do we really see and know of God/Spirit/Whatever you want to call it?

 

 

This is so true.  If we only knew how little we know.  I don't think our brains are equipped to understand but just so much, to avoid overload.  I think this is why we feel and connect with the universal power in a spiritual way rather than an intellectual one.

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This is so true.  If we only knew how little we know.  I don't think our brains are equipped to understand but just so much, to avoid overload.  I think this is why we feel and connect with the universal power in a spiritual way rather than an intellectual one.

 

 

My sense of spirituality comes come concrete knowledge about the world around me. I think witchcraft begins with a good intuition of the world around us, and involves a trial and error process. In many ways, I view it like I view science. I do believe there are plenty of currently misunderstood forces within the universe which witchcraft taps into that science has yet to tap. However, I do feel even witchcraft has a higher, more concrete understanding to it. I also think a lot of it has to do with personal will. I do not believe the forces which drive witchcraft are celestial, ethereal, or intangible, but are merely regarded as such due to lack of understanding, much as birth, disease, and death once were. 

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My sense of spirituality comes come concrete knowledge about the world around me. I think witchcraft begins with a good intuition of the world around us, and involves a trial and error process. In many ways, I view it like I view science. I do believe there are plenty of currently misunderstood forces within the universe which witchcraft taps into that science has yet to tap. However, I do feel even witchcraft has a higher, more concrete understanding to it. I also think a lot of it has to do with personal will. I do not believe the forces which drive witchcraft are celestial, ethereal, or intangible, but are merely regarded as such due to lack of understanding, much as birth, disease, and death once were. 

 

Forgive me if I'm dense on this, Ravenshaw... I'm trying to understand: Are you saying that Witchcraft is a science? or are you comparing it TO science ? (or both?)

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You know, I had originally written a different answer, but in retrospect, I think you may be right. Not because being proficient in the craft means having or needing no religious belief, but because the very way it is presented assumes that the newcomer is "using" gods solely to boost their confidence as a witch for spell-work, and if that is the case then there is totally no true relationship with - much less understanding of - divinity. So yes, the god would be tossed aside later, or become a nice-but-forgotten teddy bear in the closet of their mind. Though I doubt any real connection was ever made - no god I have heard of (and granted there are thousands) would be willing to be used at whim for spell-work...I think it is rather arrogant of humans to believe that gods actually can be used in that way. To think so rather makes the human the god and the god a puppet. 

 

M

 

^this. It's a personal pet peeve of mine when such people call spellwork "prayer with props".

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