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Sandy

Universal Energy or God

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Guest Bean Sprite

I can agree with that.

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Guest Landieth

Hmm... I'd have to say I agree with the idea of universal energy AND god-forms. I believe there are many aspects of energy and nature. I also believe that we can call on those different aspects apart from others, and in manifestation, they take form in what we grew up holding high above everything else and what our imaginations can percieve.

 

I mean, that's just my way of reasoning. That's how I explain ancient cultures with dieties that resembled half man-half beast..

 

And I will even take it a step further. I, myself, experience sight of universal energy manifesting in certain people. This is a trait that I GUESS runs in my family, because my grandmother sees this too at times.

 

When someone caries a strong positive energy around them, I sometimes see the faint lines of wings around the person.

 

When someone follows a very negative way, and is surrounded and drowning themselves in negative energy.. well, if I look at them their face will usually distort to something ugly, and faint lines of horns will show.

 

(It can also mean other things, depending on the person, but that doesn't go along with this topic..)

 

So I do believe that universal energy exists, but that it has very many aspects, and that it shows itself to us in ways we can percieve it. Therefore, god-forms and manifestations in everyday life such as signs, etc..

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Guest pickbeans
I haven't read all the posts in this very interesting thread and it is something that I have pondered over for quite some time

 

I believe that as humans, most have to give identity to things to help indentify with it , which is where all the names for the various deities, gods, goddess, angels, and the like come from for the universal energies around us (IMHO)

 

In the past I have never really called on various 'named' deities because nothing called to me and it used to worry me that I wasn't fitting in. One dude told me that I just HADDDD too name the energies that I tried to invite into my magical space! boyyy did that not sit well with me at all :grind:

 

so then in typical Phoenix form, I pondered some more for a year or two :D and then had a wonderful walk out amongst nature, and then it occurred to me !

 

In nature there are things masculine and feminine and that was most likely true in the grand scale within the universe! To keep with humanity, and our desires, deities were perhaps developed over the years to work with and dependent on what work was needed, they were given definite characteristics or personality ;) hence why we have a god of war, goddess of fertility (for example) with their various names dependent on culture !

 

within the universal energies - something that I truly do not believe that humans can grasp in totality as it is just too VAST - parts of those energies are masculine/feminine and now have been given personality traits :D

 

 

sooooo in this wonderful journey of mine , I do currently call on named entities and you most likely wonder why - well in a nutshell , it helps me focus , and through that focus I personally can enhance the magical energy I am trying to create!

 

right or wrong? dunno - but for now it works for me, maybe in my future I wont feel the need to do it - but for now - it is kinda fun feeling the various personalities and energies that is within the universal energies

 

hmm are the universal energies a lifeform? is it sentient HAHAHAHAHA yet another thought that Ill touch on another time perhaps

 

:thanks: for listening to my ramble

 

very interesting thread !! On my days off Ill catch up and read it all

 

 

OK...

 

I've been reading this thread with great enthusiasm, and this is where I have to stop and put in my two cents.

 

Your post, Phoenixahi, has stuck out the most for me, and your thoughts/beliefs are the ones I can most relate to at my current stage in life.

 

The path I'm on right now is a very confusing one for me. Since I took to the craft 14 or so years ago, I have not believed in sentient gods. I have, however, placed names and faces on them, and even personalities. Cerridwen and Cernunnos.

 

My path took a 90-degree turn recently when I veered away from Wicca. I guess I'm still in the "deprogramming mode", because I still feel a strong urge to name the powers that I call on (or maybe that just makes me human, who knows?). I mean, I don't think that those powers are in any way sentient, and for the time being I've simply referred to it as the Universal Construct... the fabric of the cosmos, if you will.

 

My question to you is... if you share the same views as myself (and it appears as though you do)... what do you call those powers? If not Pan/Diana or Cerridwen/Cernunnos... then what??

 

Maybe that is just something I need to steer away from a little harder: the "naming of the power"... but to be quite honest, it makes me feel... "complete" inside if I have a name for those powers.

 

I hope some of this makes some sense to some others here... I think I'm at a very difficult time on my journey, and I hope someone can help shed some light onto my thoughts.

 

Amos

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Wow, a deep profound thread that I missed? How'd that happen? ;) hehe

 

I'll just say I'm not a big fan of personification, but on the other hand I recognize it definitely has it's uses.

I tend to think more in terms of a universal energy though.

Or - perhaps something in-between that we aren't even capable of comprehending or recognizing as "intelligent" or "sentient", but may actually be more advanced, in a "coming full circle" sorta way. Wow, that was obtuse..

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I believe in a Universal energy and deities. For many years I considered all the different goddesses as aspects of the one goddess and all gods aspects of the one god.

 

A couple of years ago, though, events happened that changed my viewpoint and I'm now a polytheist and I see deities as separate entities.

 

Raina

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Guest pickbeans

I guess I would consider myself a pantheist, since I consider "god" and the universal construct to be one and the same.

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Pick Beans:

 

Re what to call gods.... My mum calls me Daughter. My son calls me Mom (and occasionally Unfair-Bitch-From-Hell), my girlfriend calls me Lover and Friend, my employer calls me Paralegal...

 

Bottom line is, I have numerous names, but no matter what aspect/part of me you call, no matter what hat I'm wearing at the time, it doesn't change who I am.

 

I would call whatever gods you believe in by whatever name feels comfortable to you... If you believe they exist, then for you they do.

 

Personally I, also, was trained with gods. I happen to like gods. I don't worship them any more than I worship myself, for we are all of the same worth, I think. But I do respect and value them (as all beings) and I do try to give back. Whether they are indivduals or a universal energy or simply a part of a universal energy I've named to better understand it.... For me it no longer matters, only that I like them, they like me, and working with them works for me.... :-)

 

I have (what I call for lack of a better name) an "ancester alter." I don't work with my ancesters, per se, as I don't know what they are doing on the "otherside." I'm sure they would come if I called them, but they may have personal work to do, and I'm a very polite person lol. My working with them may change as I know more about them. I had a bad experience with one once, so for me it is easier to work with that whose energy I already recognize - gods. I respect and love my anscestors, but for now I don't specifically work with them.

 

Again, I am always growing, searching, and exploring so this may change.... I'll keep you posted ;-)

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Michele, I really like your idea that you have many titles but they do mean basically the same thing. Certainly, our image and relationship change with each different title. You, as a mother, is different than you, as a paralegal.

 

I think the force that I believe makes the world go around, if you will, can't possibly be the same as the Christians or many others worship as I just can't believe it would put up with the crap the other religions put on it.

 

I use my own ancestors. I don't believe that they have better things to do because they are off doing them, or at least the majority of their souls or spirit is off doing something better. The ones I use left a part of themselves within me either through time with me or some sort of connection shared through my parents, or a part of my family history. Since they are within me, they are specifically there to assist and guide.

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Ora- Hey. Due to something that recently happened, I have started working with my ancestors and land spirits, although deliberate connection on my part is new for me. Being a gardener I have always connected with land spirits, just never actually worked with them... it is a very interesting time in my life :-)

The part where you said (I should have quoted as I can't remember it exactly) that you can't imagine the christian god being the same "thing" "force" as some of the nicer gods:

I had one neighbor who worshiped a goddess who was said to be beautiful beyond belief, skin so soft one would fall in love just to touch it, a goddess whose scent she breathed out would bring men to their knees in worship. This same neighbor had a friend who worshiped a god who would rip you to shreds with a single swipe of his arms, his skin was so sharp he could not be touched without drawing blood. He was used constantly to pierce his foes and bring them to their knees.

Now, both my neighbor and her friend worshiped the same god/goddess. We would call it the rose. They just worshiped different parts of it. The friend had never seen a rose in bloom. The neighbor had always bought roses from a florist that had been de-thorned. Bottom line is, they were both right ;-)

I am not saying "all gods are one god" , or even that gods exist for everyone. I think people see what they want to see. What I am saying is that the christians worship a god they have defined, not necessarily what that god actually is.... either that or they have shaped that specific energy into the god they want, in which case anyone else could shape the energy into the god they want. Either way, the energy could, if one chose to believe in god-energies, be all things to all different types of people.

But then again, I LOVE to wax philosophical.. LOL.

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What a fascinating idea. A group shaping energy into a God they want. I love that idea. It makes sense to me. I do believe that no divine force is simply good or bad so I always thought how irritated an actual God would be with a lot of it's followers. However, if the followers came first and then, they created their own God then, well, I don't know whether that scares me more or makes me feel better.

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Guest Kathrina
Ora- Hey. Due to something that recently happened, I have started working with my ancestors and land spirits, although deliberate connection on my part is new for me. Being a gardener I have always connected with land spirits, just never actually worked with them... it is a very interesting time in my life :-)

The part where you said (I should have quoted as I can't remember it exactly) that you can't imagine the christian god being the same "thing" "force" as some of the nicer gods:

I had one neighbor who worshiped a goddess who was said to be beautiful beyond belief, skin so soft one would fall in love just to touch it, a goddess whose scent she breathed out would bring men to their knees in worship. This same neighbor had a friend who worshiped a god who would rip you to shreds with a single swipe of his arms, his skin was so sharp he could not be touched without drawing blood. He was used constantly to pierce his foes and bring them to their knees.

Now, both my neighbor and her friend worshiped the same god/goddess. We would call it the rose. They just worshiped different parts of it. The friend had never seen a rose in bloom. The neighbor had always bought roses from a florist that had been de-thorned. Bottom line is, they were both right ;-)

I am not saying "all gods are one god" , or even that gods exist for everyone. I think people see what they want to see. What I am saying is that the christians worship a god they have defined, not necessarily what that god actually is.... either that or they have shaped that specific energy into the god they want, in which case anyone else could shape the energy into the god they want. Either way, the energy could, if one chose to believe in god-energies, be all things to all different types of people.

But then again, I LOVE to wax philosophical.. LOL.

 

Michele, I want to say that this is a very interesting post and a good one IMO. I think that what some people worship or believe in are all part of a bigger picture which would be the energy all around us.

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Guest Landieth

When it comes to defining 'god' I'd go with conscious aspects of universal energy.

 

As far as a group creating a god backed by constant belief and energy.. I feel that's more a fed thought form. Some forms of magic deal with a group building a combined form from raw energy and giving it purpose. I feel it's the same thing.

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When it comes to defining 'god' I'd go with conscious aspects of universal energy.

 

As far as a group creating a god backed by constant belief and energy.. I feel that's more a fed thought form. Some forms of magic deal with a group building a combined form from raw energy and giving it purpose. I feel it's the same thing.

 

Yes - but what if this "god/energy" ALREADY existed, and the original attributes of this "____" were adulterated, either on purpose by the church for power, or slowly over time due to lost information...

the "____" would still exist, but it would be seen as, and related to, in a completely different way.

 

Now, would the actual "attributes/personality" of the "____" change over the years, or would it be just the people's impression/opinion of it that changed???

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I forget whose post it was, but someone had posted earlier about Cerridwen and Currnonus (sp on both).

I know when I had originally trained in wicca in "outer court" we worked with C & C. Upon initiation we were suddenly given two whole new gods to work with, and I found the switch from one thing I'd developed a relationship with to another I'd never met before a very tough move. Although there was so much in wicca I disagreed with, when I started leaning towards TW (and was throughly encouraged by my mentors to follow the path that rang right for me), I had a very hard time suddenly finding "no gods" (as you can probably tell from earlier posts from when I first joined this site).

I could be wrong, but I think from many of the posts I've read and messages I've had from others here that I'm not the only one who had a problem with that sudden lack of gods. Can't give an answer to the question, only the way I've found to deal with it to this point (which may well change later - lol).

For me, basically, I've redefined "god", hence the usual spelling of "___" as "god" reeks of something divine one worships.

I think there are energies out there far beyond our understanding. I think that different "prophets" have tapped into parts of this energy and described it as a god/god-form. I definitely think the energy exists; hence Hindus, Jews, Muslins, Shintos, Christians... etc., aren't "worshipping" something that doesn't exist; however, it exists for them with the attributes they've chosen to apply to it (or chosen to just recognize certain parts of it).

I also believe that the title of "god" has been given to strong, powerful energies by the general populace. In a tribal culture that has a very long yet small-in-numbers ancestry, a thousand-year-old ancester with great power may well be called by that tribe a god. And depending on the personality of this "thing/spirit" it may well demand worship in return for favors.

Right or wrong for TW, I still feel a connection to some of the gods I've worked with over the years (and not necessarily from the wiccan pantheon). However, I don't believe they are gods by the traditional definition, yet I call them gods as it is the easiest term to use to explain something unexplainable.

I don't worship them any more than they worship me. I respect them and I feed them. They respect me and feed me. It's a tit-for-tat, an exchange of energy/recognitian. I live in the physical realm, they live in the spiritual realm. They can teach me things I don't know and lend an "umph" when I need it. They are like tenured university professors. I respect them greatly, however, I do not think of them as better than I, just different and more learned in certain things. And if no one attended their "classes" they wouldn't have jobs in THIS physical realm. They are here, to an extent, because I need them (obviously other humans are invloved too, i'm just breaking this down to my personal world).

I do believe in some huge creative force, but it is so above and beyond my personal understanding that I don't even bother. This is not disrespectful, it is just a fact of life in my currrent evolution/incarnation.

Hope that makes sense. Sometimes it is so hard to put words to the unexplainable. And I think that's where the Christian bible went wrong (besides power hungry corruption) - in trying to define their god, they have given it human attributes (anger, jealousy, punitive judgment) as they have no other way of defining something, for they ARE humans.

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Guest GreenJack

Pagan deities, the Christian God, Jesus, gods of whatever bent have wonderful stories, myths, legends, fables etc. surrounding them. Maybe they are all folklore, of whatever colour their background, which humanity uses to teach, justify, heal, prop ? whatever the need; we are well-practised twisters of words. Personally I perceive this energy as a kind of cosmic spiritual/ancestral soup ? it?s sparking and oozing around the ether, ready to plug into if you find your own path to do so. It would appear that there are diverse paths to the socket and people are adept at finding their own way, via the set of ?stories? which speak to them strongest, either through personal quest or the beliefs of the social group to which they belong.

Cosmic ancestral soup rocks :sunny:

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Well, this thread is truly immortal..lol Anyway since it's here, I'll interject my photons into the prism. Perception is truth. Each individual mind perceives the universe differently. We are all made of star stuff....we are the universe itself made manifest trying to figure itself out. There has to be guiding force to the way thing things work and how things are put together. I'm not going to argue the subject, but my personal belief it that evolution IS an intelligent design. We create gods in order to put an understandable face on something we cannot even get close to comprehending. The gods we worship are reflections of ourselves. Gods give focus and shape to something shapeless and all pervasive. Personally I think the God-force for lack of an adequate word, does not need worship...we need TO worship in order to feel a connection to deity. Deity does not not need to connect to us...because we are connected always anyway. Humans excel at disconnecting themselves from the universe. We've been blessed with life and intelligence and all we do with it is make bills and work and hollywood..etc. The universal god-force also evolves and learns from it's creations as well. And what if the universe isn't the final word? What if the true nature is (again) multiverses? Multiple universes, like bubbles in the bath? Communicating and interacting with each other? Magick lets us tap into the collective subconscious. The collective subconscious lets the universe tap into us.

 

IMO...nuff said.

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Guest Bean Sprite

Well, wow....

I have enjoyed reading this thread very much. I have always had a difficult time even trying to express my thoughts on what I felt God was.

I've discussed my experiences with what most refer to as God from a personal opinion, but never was able to connect with anyone.

About 8 years ago, I was clinicly dead for 5 minutes and had an experience with something that I couldn't explain that changed me so profoundly, that I went through a great body and mind depression for quite some time.

I experienced a darkness, so dark that I cold not see any parts of myself, nor anything around me, but the feeling that I was part of everything around me and traveling at a nosebleed speed. I was not scared, but very at peace and like I knew where I was and where I had been. I then started to realise that it was not me traveling, but evrything around me was and I was more suspended in place. There was a great static like charge all around me and through me, yet, I didn't seem to be solid and my surroundings made a noise similar to a pleasant hummm with what sounded like wispered words beneath them that I couldn't pin point that seemed so familiar, then I felt a ripping jolt from all over and felt like the platform was pulled from beneath me. I was pretty sure I was falling and all of these colors appeared around me in long fog like streaks, but I could not see anything that Looked recognizable, including myself. My journey ended in a burning thud. Everything was black again. The colors faded away. The noises from befor had faded away. All I could hear was a sound like wind through a key hole. I felt really depressed at that point. Very lost and trapped. There was this feeling like wet cement that engulfed me. I can't remember anything after that.

Since then, I have felt that my universe and my suroundings made more sense to me, but I don't know why. Things that we see everyday seem more relative to me. Sometimes I wonder if we aren't in the exhistance of some other energies conscience. To me, I guess God would be an energy exhistant in all forms and us in god's energy. Not like a being of high power, but more of a conscience and that we are all energy in each others conscience. I think the fabric of our bodies and the objects around us is what our conscience fabricates, much like a dream world, only that the energies create this fabric through the energy static and vibrations that become the colors and textures that we see. God is not a singular person, but a multifaceted collective conscience to me. I'm starting to think that we don't die, but are actually born out of this consciousness into a form of energy. I do believe we enteract with this energy all the time.

This has clarified things for me on some aspect, like; Fate, premonitions, time, space, birth, death, kindred spirits, ghosts. I can see connections in every aspect of everything now. Maybe this is complete bullshit on my part and I think too much, but I think about that day everyday. I wish I could even put into better words how this whole experience was for me, but I don't know if there ever could be.

Has anyone here ever had what the medical world calls a near death experience?

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Guest Autumn Witch
Well, this thread is truly immortal..lol Anyway since it's here, I'll interject my photons into the prism. Perception is truth. Each individual mind perceives the universe differently. We are all made of star stuff....we are the universe itself made manifest trying to figure itself out. There has to be guiding force to the way thing things work and how things are put together. I'm not going to argue the subject, but my personal belief it that evolution IS an intelligent design. We create gods in order to put an understandable face on something we cannot even get close to comprehending. The gods we worship are reflections of ourselves. Gods give focus and shape to something shapeless and all pervasive. Personally I think the God-force for lack of an adequate word, does not need worship...we need TO worship in order to feel a connection to deity. Deity does not not need to connect to us...because we are connected always anyway. Humans excel at disconnecting themselves from the universe. We've been blessed with life and intelligence and all we do with it is make bills and work and hollywood..etc. The universal god-force also evolves and learns from it's creations as well. And what if the universe isn't the final word? What if the true nature is (again) multiverses? Multiple universes, like bubbles in the bath? Communicating and interacting with each other? Magick lets us tap into the collective subconscious. The collective subconscious lets the universe tap into us.

 

IMO...nuff said.

 

I think this is a really well put response. It says pretty much what I wanted to say.

 

I will add that the hubby & I use titles/names/avatars to help biuld and direct energy for a specific purpose. I see the universal energy as male and female and not. It is in balance. We give that energy a name, a form because it helps us to direct the energy for whatever purpose. We also respect the universal energy as greater than us and we do tend to refer to the universal energy as God/Goddess....or Mother/Father out of respect. Our personal path tends to lean heavily towards a balance. Life keeps a balance, whether we actually see it or pay attention to it. To have the light we must have the dark. To be active, we must have rest. To have order, there must be chaos. Hopefully, that makes a little sense to someone. Either way, this has worked well for me and mine.

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Ok, I"m gonna have a very different take on this. Yes, I agree its the same energy that flows through everything, "the interconnectedness of everything", as a great author once coined it.

 

I don't agree with the god bit. Energy is neutral. It just flows. It has no desire to be one thing or another, no desire to be one place or another. It will, however, find the quickest root to earth and if that means going through you, by goodness, it will!

 

Put it down to my being an atheist if you like,(that I don't accept the god bit), but gods are supposed to have personalities, to have some kind of connection to people. Gods choose favourites and will bestow their blessings on some and not others. Energy doesn't do this, it will flow to all equally. It has no concern about what its flowing through.

 

I don't think that energy does need a positive and negative terminal to flow either. Energy can flow freely within an enclosed space. We only understand the +/- because of our limited understanding of how it all works.

 

This works for me. However, if your understanding of the god principle works for you, then I have no problem with that :)

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wortmistress, this is also my view ... personification helps us understand the divine, which i believe can be the 'all' but also 'the many'. To me, the gods and goddesses who we name 'sum up' a particular aspect of higher power; for instance, all humans experience family, childbirth, love, war ... so we have deities associated with those experiences respectively. i think this might be why so many cultures share similar types of deities; because we are all human.

 

That being said, it might also be possible that by this personification, the deity comes into being; similar to 'power words' or 'power phrases' which are said by so many people over such a long period of time that they take on a life of their own, and remain to evoke a feeling or energy even if we no longer understand the meaning of the word (for instance some witchy chants, which at first glance appear to be gobbldygook!)

 

Sandy wrote, "Would you consider this "Wryd" as actually "God" though or just a Shamanic way of connecting with the Divine? "

I think it probably started off as a shamanic view, but then 'got personified' as time went on, I suppose we can see this in the three fates, freya, etc...

Yep, we as humans need to compartmentalise and label our beliefs, experiences etc, and indeed by personification we can relate more easily to these. I personally find it fascinating that many religions, and countries have comparable dieties. Did we all at one point in time have the means to communicate with higher beings and therefore share the same genre of dieties? I liked what you said Droghon re: choosing your deity etc. acc. to lessons needing to be learned. For me it supports those people who wish to mix their pantheons but also as many dieties are repeated with diff. names in diff. pantheons, it also supports that case too!

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Not sure if this is an active thread still or not but i thought i'd add my two cents here. My personal theories on Gods and Dieties is that they're archetypes (from the collective unconciouss). Now this is Jungian but it has a lot of support, and explains things very well. It is one of the possible reasons cultures have similar deities even when in different countries and continents. Example Most cultures have a Mother Goddess. The Mother archetype is one of the most powerful and well known to humans (as we all have mothers even if we don't know them). Putting a face on a God/dess makes them approachable and easier to work with. I personally find this easier than working with a vague concept of energy without form. Theres a good quote (i'm kicking myself because i can't remember the name of the person who said it) that goes "If i was a horse my gods would be horses too". I think this has all be said more or less but i figured i'd post something myself to let people know i'm here :)

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Excellent Thread!

 

 

Good God!........I am here only a few moments.....and already I am totally Hooked on The Excellent Minds that are here!

 

so refreshing to see Healthy Conversation...and actually "grow" together..

 

Sorry..I have gone a little off topic...

 

I Read in a book concerning The Mysteries of Osiris

 

(I know its not TW...but often Things have uses..and can adapt?)

 

It was a theory..that All is One..

I explain a different way...

 

That Divinity Is divinity ......but The naming of it....got Confused according to perception and location....to the Extent that people twisted things around,

and Instead of The Meaning of all is One..(one many...everything all at once)

they managed to entrap themselves into this Insular concept...you Know...that There IS only ONE god...MY GOD....and then Killing One another and opressing one another etc.

 

and Even To call It GOD...places it somewhere other than where I stand connected in my own perspective...

Of Course I am open to new ways of looking upon it!

 

Energy...is a very very apt name ....

 

The Bliss Then of the Connection gives Rise to that called :chakrahearts:..Love

 

But..happiness is the only Goal!

 

I Like The way that Levi...described Baphomet..as Being part of The Oneness......

 

To Me..Its all One HUGE energy...

that we can USE...when we learn how!

 

thats Happiness!!!.....putting it very mildly..when that circuit is complete

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Just looking over my previous comments. I still stand by them, except now I accept the gods that have called me. Funny how things can change.

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Okay....answerr me this.....

Last week I had to go Downtown to pick up my paycheck; I am two city blocks distant from the County Courthouse/Jail.

I knew that someone was in there that had the day before had abused his son (Although I REFUSE to call this miscreant a "father" by ANY stretch of the imagination!) in a most horrible way.

I wanted to hex this bastard SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad!......

I found myself walking through the parking lot STONE ASS MAD. I was LIVID. I wanted to cast a hex SO bad....Then I noticed it. My hands were tingling, and I felt power coming up through my feet as far as my knees before I had to conciously stop it.. I wanted to punish this guy for what he did. Was my anger "Rightous Indignation", was the power I felt just a by-product of that, or did "nature" want me to carry this out? This is a new feeling to me; I have NEVER felt like doing anything like this before in such an emotional way! I stopped myself because I knew that if I had not thought this out right, someone else might get after-effects ot the hex that did'nt have it coming to them.

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