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Sandy

Universal Energy or God

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Greetings All

 

Actually I remembered where I put a blart I did on community a while back which I think ties in and is worth at least a light day dream think on ... while it is primarilly obviously Oz based I think it generally holds true else where .... Enjoy

 

While I think it would be obvious and first on the lips of many to say that I am the LAST person to argue with many of the points put forward;(diplomacy - I can at least SPELL it these days!!*G*) I

think one thing that I would offer some thought on is the word that gets used so often - "Community".

 

The way I see it there is not even simply one but many communities (Pagan, Occult, Witch, Wiccan, Asatruar, Keltoi etc etc) in Australia. I tend to think that, by and large, they serve the use of the word used for them fairly well to varying degrees - much like their constituents. New ones spring up - largely the result of limited intermingling, they survive the slings and arrows of other communities, tolerate or accept assistance etc where given or disband. They serve (or not) the purposes for which they were created or manifested, further or weaken the goals of the members, leaders and sometimes those of other associated groups and communities - or

not ... and then they die out again thus allowing information to return to a potential state, lessons to be digested and space for other or new ones. When the gods smile on us this flow continues

largely unhindered.

 

One thing I have always argued against however is that communities require their ingredients; (odd use but I am aiming at the broadest sense here) to "all get along". The way I see it the word "community" requires no special requirement for agreement between it's peoples, nor love, support or any other of the many things that are often used alongside the word as if there was some sort of intrinsic reason for doing so.

 

While I acknowledge, (and on many occasions have argued, lobbied and etc!) that the inclusion OF such things may well strengthen each individual, the community they belong to and further yet strengthen the ties between the various communities - I feel it is better to not hold the breath for something that (as you point out) rarely if ever flowers ... much less bears fruit.

 

Unfortunately, I must also state my consideration that by and large, the same holds true in a global sense. The various continents havingmuch the same problems. They are simply expressed or manifested in their own ways peculiar to geography, culture and the temper of the various peoples involved - making it seem somewhat exotic from "here".

 

It is for this reason largely that I do not include a space in the "mortar for my bricks" for such things. I find that these things in truth actually tend to form AFTER the birth of groups and

communities as a result of interaction fostered by the same.

 

The individuals within the shelter (so to speak) find themselves together, they tolerate, they conspire, they argue and fight. They form smaller cliques and groupings (whether they come to the community in these groups or form afterwards - they exist overtly and covertly everywhere) they reassess, they learn, forget, come, go, assist and hinder, love, hate, succeed, fail, birth and grieve. It is all of these things being SHARED I have always argued (and seen occur) that forms the sort of bonds that people often confuse with the community in which they occur.

 

I have despised roundly any number of people in the various communities to which I have belonged (specific wording that) but I would not turn them from my hiding places were they chased by those "from outside". A strange state of affairs I often think but that is the result of many communities I have witnessed and participated in. The better angels of temperament are wonderful and should be cherished when encountered but are not always coming to the beck and call. They are similarly not the be all and end all - much less a necessity to my mind. I don't look for such things but I do cherish the moments when they come to me.

 

But then again - consider the source ... can you not see the many multitudinous masses clamoring for my friendship? *BG* LOL Still we each in our own way can but do our best for the communities we belong to and serve. We can do this by discovering our own "job" and fulfilling

it's requirements as best we can - they are after all the wyrd that we were manifested to be. Who knows, perhaps it is such activity consciously enacted that may be the bedrock of real community that serves it's purpose most admirably? (O prends piti? de ma longue

mis?re! *BG*)

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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Now this is a great thread and one which i've just posted one of my rambles about in another forum! The topic started off about "Will of the Gods?" and wether this was just a xtian concept or not. Well it soon developed into a discussion on what the true nature of the gods is , and was very interesting. This basically sums up my views (as they stand at present!):-

When i first started out in Heathenry, i was constantly pondering the question, "who/what are the gods?", which led to considerations like "most people's round the world have believed in Gods at some point in their history - is this just a natural, innate human thing, are we responding to some instinctual perception of unseen forces within and perhaps "beyond" nature? Are Gods genuine Higher Powers making themselves known to via visions, inspiration, poetry, stories etc wherein they take on human form to teach us important lessons and impart Holy Mysteries etc?" I tried various methods to understand this - reading the lore of course, praying to the gods themselves for answers, asking my ancestors what they understand gods to be from their perspective, all of which have helped me to develop some sense of what "a god" is. For example, i felt very close to Woden in my early heathen days, and i one night asked the question "Woden, who and what are you?" When i fell asleep i had a very vivid dream wherin i could see the breath of my pets and people i knew as a white mist - a voice in the background said "That is me, that is Woden". Now i know this dream is purely UPG but i felt that in it Woden was telling me he is the breath, or the power in the breath, the Aethem if you will, in all beings - he is flowing through me and all else, he is in the wind and air around me all the time, and he is in every song and word. I have come to believe that i can connect to my Wode by deep breathing, literally taking in the essence of the "Master of Wode" himself. It's quite intriguing to me that many meditation disciplines incorporate deep breathing techniques to clear the mind for wisdom to enter - it works! I thank Woden for the gift of life and power in the air i breath and the gift of speech!

Another time i did a hamafaring to see if i could get to visit Thunor's Hall. I eded up in what i took to be Thrydham (is that spelled right in OE?). I found myself in a vast green area, like the gardens of a stately home, with a gigantic hydro-electric power station in the middle of it! Here i felt what i knew was Thunor's power - this was what i can only describe as an ever expanding, immense might which spread out in all directions, making me feel quite "high" and giddy, like i was really strong and could cope with anything. Along with this there a real sense of deep, deep happiness, like everything was fine and i wanted to laugh all the time - I've never felt anything like that happiness before or since (and i swear i wasn't on drugs or anything at the time!) Now when i think of electricity, i think of Thunor - he too is present throughout the world around me and within in every nerve impulse that allows me to feel and move etc etc

now i realise this is a lot of UPG but i'm coming to the point i was originally wanting to make - i believe now i think that Gods are the Wights/spirits of the "greater forces" in nature, and this ties in with an earlier bit of UPG i experienced before i was Heathen when i asked the God Pan what he was, and he told me "We are large energy fields" which i took to mean "big powers at work in the world/cosmos etc". When i say that i believe gods to be essentially "forces of nature" i don't mean that they are just quaint personifications created by primitive minds - i actually believe that just as a Syldaelf is the spirit of a tree and is real and i can communicate with it, a god is the spirit or "living consciousness-essence" of a vast natural force, whcih i can also communicate with. It is real, and can appear to my inner sight in a form i can relate to more easily and talk to. The force i can see, or know the effects of in nature, is only the outward form of the god's power - the god or goddess themself is a much deeper mystery beyond the ken of normal human speech or ways of understanding - this i think is why we have the myths and stories, to understand on a deeper level what our normal waking minds can only barely grasp. NB When i say nature i mean the whole of reality - what we might consider both "natural" and "supernatural" - it is all part of "nature" to me, so a natural force can also be "the force that enables humans to see the unseen", or it can be the force of death and decay, or the force which pulls our soul back to our ancestors when the lich/body dies - just because something is not seen or understood by normal means does not mean it is not part of nature IMO.

Now to come to the original question this thread was deaing with, what of "the will of the gods"? Now to look into this i'd have to go back to some other questions i've always pondered, and one of them is "where did the fire and ice come from?" Now nowhere are we told this, and some heathens may think it a daft question as nobody knows so don't think about it - maybe they just always were? My child-like mind is always wanting to know where things have come from though, what is its root and so on, and so the question for me has never gone away. Now when i think of the whole germanic system, how things seem to work in it and how everything happens and comes into being, the only power which seems to have a hand in absolutely all phenomena and events is Wyrd. Infact if i'm not mistaken, her name means "That which has come into being" or "That which has come to pass" - please correct me if i'm wrong someone. If i'm right with this idea, if all things, all wights, even the gods, are subject to Wyrd, then maybe nothing can exist prior to her in a sense. Maybe i'm casting her in a Brahminic role as "that which has come to be and without which nothing else can exist/happen/manifest". Now maybe i'm wrong and there's some piece of lore somewhere which says Wyrd is the daughter of another Being, but i do wonder how can the power of the "past", or "what has come to be" have anything before it - ie I can imagine that if one saw wyrd herself standing next to any other power in existance, she'd just keep on standing behind it saying - "this is where and who i am". Now if Wyrd is the "Cosmic Mother" of all things that exist in effect (please don't accuse me of being a bit too Wiccan here - i know how it sounds!) then maybe the gods are "agents" of her willl in a cosmic and worldly sense, ie their will is to ensure that everything meets its alloted orlaeg in the best way possible. Therefor, the gods will is the same as Wyrd's, or at least their will reflects what Wyrd has decreed.

Now i know that one of Woden's brother is called Willa, and so maybe he is the god of "Divine Will" - however, i think the term/name here means "Divine force of Desire", or the motivating impetus as a whole in the cosmos and in ourselves, as opposed to exactly what the divine would have, or "will" to happen. I think Willa/Villi is the "Divine Motivator" as in prompting action - I don't believe he himself decides what the action is in other words.

Now someone mentioned the idea of "merging" with a god and someone else said words to the effect that they didn't think we can do that or that it was even desirable since we are meant to be separate individuals, and i'm all for us all being our natural and true individual selves, gods included! However, since i believe that the gods are already part of me and everything else around me, i'm already merged with them all the time in a way, so maybe it is only in the conscious and deliberate recognition of that fact that i can possibly be doing any active "merging" with any of them. I suppose the god i most want to become "at one" with and merge with completely would be Wyrd, then i would be absolutely in harmony, i reckon, with the ultimate "Divine Will". This is my current belief anyway - i am mindfull that these matters are often a long and convoluted process of "unfolding of wisdom" for each of us!

PS Just as an aside i think my personal theology would best be described as animism, though i suppose it does incorporate polytheism, and maybe ultimately monotheism as well, but i reckon in terms of how i approach the divine in practice, it's effectively polytheism, and how i view all things in general, it's animism definitely.

I'd add to this that i think that as far as magic goes, the effects of a spell often act on us from within, removing blockages to our Divine connection and "True Will" if you like, releasing potentials that we can achieve as part of our personal Wyrd and would not have been able to access had the blockage remained. I'm still a bit woolly about that though so my personal gnosis on it might alter slightly in future!

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Greetings A.Q

 

Yup yup YUP! is all I can say.

 

At the end of the day I really do tend to think that things become difficult only when we make them so.

 

I really liked the vision of Woden in facet to the breath of life and further on into animism.

 

Personally, (and I say this as someone who has their own Gods) I believe that there is everything and the pssibilities and probabilities of every concievable thing - all the time. It is a constant now wherein every and anything can be (and often is). That there is actuality is only a function of the observer as a form of screen by which the same can fulfill their role as observer.

 

To me, a part of that is the assinging of vague limits to all things observed and not as a means by which the observer can define themselves and have reference for all they define as "not self". Such limits we term as definitions name and so on. The same can be said of present, past future - afterall you are not reading this as I type it so the use of "present" is at best subjective.

 

THIS I believe to be the clue that Gardner left some of his followers when he said: "If you find it not within you" or if you prefer Wyrd or Singularity for that matter .. *G*

 

So there we are, self defining from the all that IS and thereby assigning vague nebulous areas we call this or that. We do this when we meet other people, ("that is Jim" ... subtext Jim is husband to, son to, father to .. etc etc) or Gods for that matter ("that is Vishnu, that is Coyote, that is the Rainbow Serpent, Cosi ama Cosi" etc etc)

 

It is only when we forget that we are self defining ourself apart from all that is for a reason that we begin to think that there really is separation. This is a fate worse than death and has symptoms like trying to define everything into wee boxes for comfort and the associated belief that such fits the boxes etc ... lol

 

In many wys I feel that our connection to our respective gods is a matter of properly solving our way back to proper connection with ourselves as a part of that all that is via a sort of observation of manisfestation in reverse. In this sense our gods are us writ big but they are still us - even though they are other in a sense. If one finds it within .. then without .. or vice versa.

 

The magic is when we are in touch well enough that we discover our wishes manifest - or at least the path of least resistance to the same.

 

Or something like it. *G* I'll stop now - I'm starting to talk like a psych - or a friend of Oprah's !! LOL

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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Personally, (and I say this as someone who has their own Gods) I believe that there is everything and the pssibilities and probabilities of every concievable thing - all the time.

 

 

I agree with you here 100%! I don't think there are any limits at all to how the "Divine" can manifest itself and make itself known to us, or as to how we as an indivisible part of it can work with it. Even my "bad thoughts" are part of "the divine mind" i believe and have a purpose.

 

 

To me, a part of that is the assinging of vague limits to all things observed and not as a means by which the observer can define themselves and have reference for all they define as "not self". Such limits we term as definitions name and so on. The same can be said of present, past future - afterall you are not reading this as I type it so the use of "present" is at best subjective.

 

Yes, i've heard it said that time is just an imaginary construct for the purposes of physical incarnation - this illusion dissolves once we recognise "all as brahman" so to speak, since "brahman" is everything in all times and places, and therefor if i "become" brahman by simply recognising this - i exist in all times and places and so time ceases to have a meaning in effect. I actually think i'm both an individual entity (as in "individual expression of brahmin/wyrd/dambhala wedo etc"), plus on some level i share the same energy as whatever i point my finger at.

 

 

 

 

THIS I believe to be the clue that Gardner left some of his followers when he said: "If you find it not within you"

 

 

I think he was dead right!

 

 

 

 

So there we are, self defining from the all that IS and thereby assigning vague nebulous areas we call this or that. We do this when we meet other people, ("that is Jim" ... subtext Jim is husband to, son to, father to .. etc etc) or Gods for that matter ("that is Vishnu, that is Coyote, that is the Rainbow Serpent, Cosi ama Cosi" etc etc)

 

 

Yep, again i think the name and form bit is simply to fulfil certain functions, useful for the purposes of "shaping the soul on the anvil of life", but ultimately , like believing that a wave is separate from the ocean it rises from (boy i'm vedic today!), it's an illusion. I prefer to stay grounded by observing the many but seeing the whole as it were. I think this is what is meant by the myth of Woden sacrificing an "eye" to obtain wisdom - he's given up a way of seeing the world - as separate both from himself and the ultimate reality which is Wyrd. I think different pantheons, traditions etc serve to give us different "hats" that we can wear for a while so our soul can develop in some way. If i, for example, decide to wear the Thelema hat for a while, it'll initiate the download of a "programme" in my psyche which will have whatever effect Thelema + AQ equals. The more inclined i am towards a particular path, likely the more intense the effect. A path may prove unworkable for us, but each "hat" will have a benefit, evn if only worn briefly.

 

 

 

It is only when we forget that we are self defining ourself apart from all that is for a reason that we begin to think that there really is separation. This is a fate worse than death and has symptoms like trying to define everything into wee boxes for comfort and the associated belief that such fits the boxes etc ... lol

 

 

Yes, being "bewildered by flotsam and jetsam" is indeed trying!

 

 

 

 

 

In many wys I feel that our connection to our respective gods is a matter of properly solving our way back to proper connection with ourselves as a part of that all that is via a sort of observation of manisfestation in reverse. In this sense our gods are us writ big but they are still us - even though they are other in a sense. If one finds it within .. then without .. or vice versa.

 

 

 

Yes indeed, perhaps also well put by the vedantic scholar Vivekenanda when he said "we really answer our own prayers, Jesus, Buddha, Allah are simply names for what is one and the same as our own Atman [soul]". I think you also echo here the line from the Upanishads which declares "The one who sees the self within all and all within the self feels no bitterness - that soul does not need to hide"

 

Great chat - i'm really enjoying this thread!

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Feeling like the odd ball out here but what the hell. This is a great thread and thought provoking.

I see things in a Jungian sort of way. Pehaps the deities are simply thoughtforms manifested and fed power and energy throughout the ages by humans. Kinda like a big ass fetch that ultimately has taken on the traits of thousands if not millions of people throughout the ages all concentrating on the agreed traits. Offerings, rituals, chants,etc send out waves of energy. If everyone is focusing on the same thing...well. Few worship Zeus any longer, is Zeus any less accessable than say, Pan or Adonis? Over the past 15 yrs or so (could be longer but thats when I noticed the upsurge) there has been a revival of the energy known as Hecate. I have sensed "her" presence and am especially drawn to it, but would that energy have felt the same to me say, 100 years ago when probably very few were acknowledging/working with "her"? I dont know?

We *know* that our thoughts manifest into reality, perhaps this is the prime example of those actions? The mind is a powerful tool, combined with will and intent can create anything that is truly desired.

To me, energy is energy. I make it divine or not, it is the same energy as what makes a light bulb function. I dont worship deities simply because I think that I am energy itself just in a different form. I wouldnt worship a light bulb or myself either;). That said, I am fully aware of the energy around me and of all its magnificent forms/beings. Lets just say that I respect the hell out of it and try to work in balance (positive and negative) with the myriad of forms "out there". Nature for example, to me is not kind and cruel, it simply *is* what it is...a complex blending of different forms of energy, some pleasant...some not. We attach an idea or emotion to it so that we can better comprehend it. Compartmentalize, I think someone said...absolutely.

 

Ok well its late and I'm not pleased with my articulation on this...been up for way too many hours and the xanax has finally kicked in... I will attempt to clarify this in the am if needed.:cool:

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Over the past 15 yrs or so (could be longer but thats when I noticed the upsurge) there has been a revival of the energy known as Hecate. I have sensed "her" presence and am especially drawn to it, but would that energy have felt the same to me say, 100 years ago when probably very few were acknowledging/working with "her"? I dont know?

 

 

I've felt drawn to Hecate in the past too - a very powerful pull that was! I certainly think gods can "lie dormant" until their "time" comes round again - maybe their energy is rather like a series of dams, which once the blockage to their flow is gradually removed, start to surge forth again. I think this might have started during the enlightenment when the church very gradually started to lose its hold on people's minds. The question as to wehter or not "we or they" are resposible for this "release of forces" meets in the middle for me really, since i think their energy is both internal and external. Yes, maybe "Hecate Herself" (percieved as an external "other")did hold up her torches to me so to speak, but maybe i could just see it as the "Hecate part of me" illuminating something in a way eminently suited to that godform, and the "Hecate in others" is doing the same thing - to me it's all "Hecate", wether percieved as internal or external, "dressed up" by humans or "dressing up" for them - the energy/power whatever is for me one and the same. Like scott mentioned, i don't think it (or we) has/have any limits really. I don't think your viewing everything as "just energy" makes you an oddball either - you're simply viewing it all "as it is" (in quantum physical/scientific terms perhaps), whilst i'm maybe viewing through an instinctual human lens of "religious awe" specific to a particular culture and its language. I think both perceptions are useful and valid.

 

 

Nature for example, to me is not kind and cruel, it simply *is* what it is...a complex blending of different forms of energy, some pleasant...some not.
.

 

Agreed 100% - i think the whole "angel/demon" thing is "how things feel for humans", not necessarily "things as they really are". There'd be no evolution without diseases, maggots, crap eating flies etc etc Their energy or "spirit" for me comes from the same source as a kitten or a rainbow ultimately.

 

PS - cool Myspace page Arabi! We have some interests in common - i like organic stuff and am a Manson fan as well! I'm really sorry to hear about your tragic losses recently. Hope the horse-training etc goes well anyway. I think we'll all be rootin' for ya!

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Greetings All

 

Well I am really pressed for time and just before bed too so I'll try to just say the most pithy thing that came to mind on this and one or tow others.

 

Hopefully next week I'll have a bit more time ...

 

All of teh above yes ... and then once when I was asked if I therefore due to that thought all were one god I said no and I explained it best by saying that it was worth remembering that while many wee cubes make up a Rubik's cube - that don't help me solve it.

 

I like the hats ... for me as I once said it - imagine that when you encounter me happy I am in fact a totally different person to when I am sad. Different names ... the lot. It is one of the simplest ways I remember that the "parts of" does not necc require likeness. It is that in itself I think (at this late hour scrambled as I am) that allows me to have worked with archetypes, stereotypes and also external agency MUCH in teh same manner while getting the best out of each as separate and different activities.

 

Surprising in some ways when I think on it! lol

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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Guest finyacluck

i too agree with original statement and general jist of replies. I believe that tantamount to our believes, perhaps the core value, is this notion of two seperate, balanced, interlinking male and female energies that are relyant on each other:yingyang:. Personally I also believe that it is impossible for anyone to understand their make-up and obviously there are many different personal ways of identifying or tapping into it, but being a pagan i identify with them mostly in a human form when praising, then in their various natural forms when working, e.q. trees, plants, stones etc.

 

 

Hmmm (unfortunatly there is no smilie stroking its chin methodically)

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but being a pagan i identify with them mostly in a human form when praising, then in their various natural forms when working, e.q. trees, plants, stones etc.

 

Interesting :) so are you Pagan or a witch? And how exactly does one Praise something? just curious - I might use another term - praise is a word I haven't heard since I was 7 in church with the brownies

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Guest finyacluck

So you cant praise a spirit or a diety in the hope of using its guidence if you cast spells, i.e. are a witch?

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No generally we dont "praise" or "worship" like Xtians or Wiccans would, we work with them not for them.

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Guest finyacluck

i agree, but you could also look at it that they work for us when we show them respect. I understand 'praise' might not have been the right word, i just cant think of the right one now.

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At the risk of sounding very wack (something i seem to do often - lol), in a way I can understand the praise thing, but the word praise in not quite right (for me)... maybe connect? Maybe a need to feel there is something bigger out there than me/us? I once had a dream that I died. I was "dead" in the dream and floated off. I can't remember what the surrounding area was like (unfortunately) I just remember thinking "well, this isn't so bad" and floating about. But then I realized I was alone. I wasn't threatened by anything and there was nothing to fear, but I was alone. At that point I started to get a bit nervous (okay, okay... panic - lol), and I suddenly thought... oh I know... call someone... call the gods or someone I "know." I started to call but then woke up. I have often wondered about this dream. Why was I scared at being alone? Why had I felt alone? I have always had the need/want to have someting I love, be it goldfish, cat, dog, sig. other...etc. Is that my own insecurities and neurosis or merely me being human? I'm not always good at making my point, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I can understanding choosing to believe in something one can, if not praise per se (sp), then at least have a bond with. Something that we see as bigger than us and therefore knowing the ropes if we don't and something there is a mutual careing for. Reading back over this, I can see I haven't written it just right, but do you get the jist? Or should I go hire a psychlogist??? lol. I very much enjoy "down time" and being alone to "do my thing," but I like to feel a connection to something. It's not something I praise, but it is something I respect and something I feel a "bond" with and something I am already a part of, but it's bigger than that. Okay, my dog is pawing at me and telling me I should quit typing while I'm ahead and take him out. :-)

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Guest kales
Roger thank you for this link and your views. I love hearing about this subject but not too many people are willing to come forward and say anything about it. I could literally sit and listen for hours and hours about what "God" means to each individual.

 

I am always very open on this subject and crave to absorb as much information as I can. My views change all the time and when I am enlightened by something that fits better than my current thought then I have no problem in embracing it.

 

I can fully relate to and even practise in my daily life what was written on that webiste.

 

"Our Anglo-Saxon ancestors believed in a universe where lines of power ran through the earth, spirits inhabited the trees, streams and stones, and where magicians were able to look into the future through the mysterious power of runes"

 

This is a Shamanic way of thinking and one that I personally feel very attuned to. Myself and Brian have been searching for a good leyline website or book which covers Europe as well as the UK, but its damn hard to find anything decent!! I could get out there myself with a dowsing stick I guess LOL .. I can just see my neighbours now!! HAHA

 

Would you consider this "Wryd" as actually "God" though or just a Shamanic way of connecting with the Divine? Either way, connecting on this level certainly works for me and this is exactly what my workshop (that I am setting up with my Shamanic friend in Germany) will be teaching to our Catholic local villagers in the coming year!

 

However, my initial question (or rather rambling thoughts) was more about "What" is the Divine, rather than a way of working to attain Nirvana.

Wow, what a good thread, so much information to take in! I would agree totally with the majority of what you've all said, and the rest has definately given me things to think about and consider.

 

My question would be: what is the majority opinion of origin? Say at one point the universe was nothing, then what created the universe and universal energy? Furthermore, the way nature progressed over the millions of years, would you say that was all by chance? or according to a giant plan? and if so, who or what made the plan and implements it?

 

I think Perranporth in Cornwall has good leyline if you ever pass that way Sandy. And very good on the 6am post, I would have fallen asleep on the keyboard, lol.

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Guest Nightwalker

My question would be: what is the majority opinion of origin? Say at one point the universe was nothing, then what created the universe and universal energy? Furthermore, the way nature progressed over the millions of years, would you say that was all by chance? or according to a giant plan? and if so, who or what made the plan and implements it?

 

That may well be just a bit to much for our current minds in the evolution of human kind to grasp ! you need to ask these questions on the astral and you may well be made enlightened a bit more, i find i cannot explain in words the "Big picture" its just a knowing that i belong to all things, like the whole universe is a living aware thing!

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wow this is getting heavy. I believe the Universal Energy has always been there - the solar system is just that. I believe that when a star explodes and can form a planet, the universal energy can start off life on that planet from the energy created from the explosion, the life created then feeds from the universal energy.

 

Its a bit like what came first the chicken or the egg haha :)

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Guest kales

Yeah soz about that, maybe I've spent too much time walking through the woods and the air's got to me, lol. :)

 

Roll-on the headache pills! hehe

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Guest Hel26

I like this topic it makes you think and wonder. Mostly because it is a hard issue for modern witches of any mode or path, where we?re given?unlike most other faiths?such an intimate relationship with the Divine and act as our own clergy. It?s a topic where witches of various paths tend to disagree. Firstly though I apologize for not having read every reply to this thread ... I just wanted to lay out my blurb before I go to bed.

 

In some branches of traditional craft such as those that fall under what could be called Luceferian and Noctoferian traditions (I should mention that this is from my brief encounters with practitioners who claimed to be of those paths) there is somewhat of a belief that Angels are a kind of God-form. In a lot of legends ancient people speak of actual beings/angles/gods that descended upon earth and taught man things such as blacksmithing, horticulture, geomancy, astrology, magik etc. Also that they intermingled and bread with human women (like the fallen angels mentioned in the Bible). And it was mentioned that witches and priests or people who could create magik "know things" came from part of that bloodline and retained that knowledge. And today there are still many native religions that believe their gods to be very corporeal and real beings in and of themselves and not simply vague forms of our own psyche and each of their gods has a specific trade or role. But weather or not beings actually taught man these things and this is factual or metaphor for something deeper or inexpressible I don?t know. Weather magik folk carry some sort of blood line is quite arguable and at the end of the day probably won?t get you anywhere even if you do believe it. It?s like saying that you can trace your lineage back to the original four kings of Ireland. That and 20 p won?t even get ya a cup of coffee. Like was once pointed out to me, if it were the case after however many thousands of years or eons of time, wouldn?t that weaken any supposed bloodline? (I promise this ties in to the topic somewhere and I apologize for the rambling).

 

So some traditionalists believe their gods to be singular figures. Others believe, more or less, that we?re experiencing the same thing only from different perspectives. A few people have made the point that Deity, The Divine, speaks to us personally from within for whatever we need to learn or gain from the experience. I believe this is very true. While I also believe that, for example, the goddess Moriganna is not simply another aspect of The Lady/Great Goddess, and neither is Briggita, but rather individual powers and identities--different threads of fate. Although a thread of fate may be known to more than one peoples and therefor have different names depending on the culture. However, they do seem to express themselves personally and uniquely to each individual who either chooses to contact them or ends up crossing their path (or does both at once). I?ve also been told that The Gods or Higher Energies are more aware of you than you ever are of them in our mortal state (where we see so little of the whole picture), so this must mean that contact with Deity begins within as we and all things ever thought, created or dreamed are connected in some un-knowable way and essentially made of the same stuff.

 

But in our guessing and human need to name and label things and thus making it fit into our reality everyone seems to arrive at the same conclusion. We?re all energy, we?re all made of stardust. Physical matter is energy like spiritual energy only at different vibrations. all things are energy in the end there are just different kinds. Also, if there are enlightened beings?such as gods or angels?would they retain the same sort of ego that humans have which divides us from one another and gives us a false sense of separation from each other and all things? Or would they be in connection and more ?at one? with the source of all life that is all things--that unknowable source? Thereby giving up or putting aside that thing many of us strive to overcome or at least master, that thing which can sometimes separate us and cause us to see only our personal section of the picture

 

In the end, what I?m saying is, a witch is a sorcerer someone who wields the powers of the source. End of. Where you choose to go from there is up to you and the beliefs you discover to be true.

 

PS I hope this had something to do with the topic and made sense and wasn?t complete twaddle and I hope I didn?t come across as a complete idiot:eek: I don?t usually feel comfortable with posting in forums but since it?s policy to give your two cents that?s what I?m doing:D Take care everybody.

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Guest thorn

Hmmm. This is a very interesting thread.

 

I don't believe that there is a god or goddess at all. I mean, not one who is aware of things or has any control at all over what happened or happens. There are spirits, but there is no single life force that controls everything. I don't believe in the existence of a creator. I suppose that to me, the closest thing to a god is nature itself, and I don't see it as being sentient at all.

 

I believe that we have souls and I believe that there is a lot of energy in the world but I really can't (never could) make myself believe in gods and whatnot. At least not the conventional definition of god.

 

Witchcraft was never taught as a religion to me, as much as it was taught as a way of life. You sort of... manipulate the energy that is around you. I was never taught anything about talking to god or anything like that. Gods and goddesses were explained and taught but together with cultural history and very much in a "just for reference" way. None of the rituals and spells and charms that I learned included them; they refer to spirits but not gods.

 

Argh, I'm not sure if I'm making sense. It's really difficult to explain. Sorry if I'm not being clear.

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Guest Phoenixahi

I haven't read all the posts in this very interesting thread and it is something that I have pondered over for quite some time

 

I believe that as humans, most have to give identity to things to help indentify with it , which is where all the names for the various deities, gods, goddess, angels, and the like come from for the universal energies around us (IMHO)

 

In the past I have never really called on various 'named' deities because nothing called to me and it used to worry me that I wasn't fitting in. One dude told me that I just HADDDD too name the energies that I tried to invite into my magical space! boyyy did that not sit well with me at all :grind:

 

so then in typical Phoenix form, I pondered some more for a year or two :D and then had a wonderful walk out amongst nature, and then it occurred to me !

 

In nature there are things masculine and feminine and that was most likely true in the grand scale within the universe! To keep with humanity, and our desires, deities were perhaps developed over the years to work with and dependent on what work was needed, they were given definite characteristics or personality ;) hence why we have a god of war, goddess of fertility (for example) with their various names dependent on culture !

 

within the universal energies - something that I truly do not believe that humans can grasp in totality as it is just too VAST - parts of those energies are masculine/feminine and now have been given personality traits :D

 

 

sooooo in this wonderful journey of mine , I do currently call on named entities and you most likely wonder why - well in a nutshell , it helps me focus , and through that focus I personally can enhance the magical energy I am trying to create!

 

right or wrong? dunno - but for now it works for me, maybe in my future I wont feel the need to do it - but for now - it is kinda fun feeling the various personalities and energies that is within the universal energies

 

hmm are the universal energies a lifeform? is it sentient HAHAHAHAHA yet another thought that Ill touch on another time perhaps

 

:thanks: for listening to my ramble

 

very interesting thread !! On my days off Ill catch up and read it all

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I don't know where to start on my reply to this topic, so I'm going to do my best to put things in order and hope you can understand where I am coming from. So, so here goes...

 

This is actually something I think about a lot. My mind is always pondering who and what deities are, and why there are so many different views out there. One thing I can say is that I don't think there are any "wrong" views out there. As has been said I believe that deity will reveal it's self to each person as they can best understand it. That being said I personally feel that every deity is a real being on the astral or other worlds. They are beings of energy that can and do focus on specific areas of power.

 

In many cases these deities have names. Hellenic pagans have the Greek Gods, and according to some Gaia, is the actual earth. From her all things were born. That's a great view, and one I shared for a long time, but not any more. Regardless to the Greeks and some modern day pagans their deities are real beings. They may or may not have physical forms, but they are real and they are powerful.

 

Myself, I do work with some of the Greek Deities. That's where my start in paganism came from. Yet I don't worship them. I work with them and their energy towards goals and desires. I may do a small ritual of thanks to them, but I don't work for them. I work with them. I respect them as spirits and beings. That doesn't mean I wont tap into their energy for needs and desires. It just means I don't "worship" them. I do honor and respect them and may hold rituals, but it's not of bowing down to them. It's of a working relationship.

 

On that note I do consider myself a priestess in some was. I hold rituals in honor of deities as a thank you. It's not like I am bowing down before them and "preaching". Its more of a "Ok I'm here, and I want to work with you. Teach me". My rituals dedicated to deities is about communication. I do celebrate holidays, but it's an expression of my work with them and not for them. I don't think I have to work specific rites to get their help. I do it because I want to honor them for what they are, and what they do.

 

In general I believe that in the beginning there was one almighty source of it all. This source created the universe. I call it "great spirit". This spirit started all life and from this spirit comes all life energy. Though this spirit wanted order with all the energy so he created two other spirits a male and a female. From them all other deities were born.

 

When a person is born the Great and unknowable Great Spirit (as his power and being is so great) gives some of his life energy to the person or creature born. Inside us all is a divine spark. Our everlasting soul as it were. So we are all connected to deity, and we all work with spirit. In the end the Great Spirit and it's children are mystery. It's up to every one toi find their own meaning of deity and their own way of working with that spirit energy.

 

Because we are all connected through the great spirit, we can work magic. Spirit's gift to us all is the ability to sense and work with spirit energy. Spirit trusts us to find our own way in the world, and find out own truths. That's why what works for some might not work for another. Personal expolration and discovery is what witchcraft is about to me.

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Guest Tiger Lady

Droghon, I like the way you worded this - its pretty much what I've been trying to say for a while now.

 

NO, we make our own realities, we perceive things individually and what is real to you or I may not be real for someone else .. GOOD, it'd be a bloody boring world and life if we all perceived things exactly the same way.

 

 

I think we have a limited way to perceive most anything and we use our on bodies and how they work in that perception. Say for instance - male and female plugs. We know that you can make a good connection by inserting on thing into another. We know this because that's how our own bodies work. I know, I know a weird example. But if you look at many of our inventions they mimic the way our own bodies work - this is what we know best.

 

It is the same for our knowledge of gods and goddesses. We project in our minds what a god and goddess should look like and be of course named. I like names - it helps me put a face on justice, earth mother, death, birth, animal spirits and all the other fasciates that I see in the gods and goddesses whether they are one energy (I'm an energy sort of gal) with multiple personalities or separate etc.... It doesn't really matter to me in the end because there's no possible way for me to know the answer. I do think that if there is a higher being then it is something our minds cannot comprehend with our own definitions or terms.

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Guest Tiger Lady

I should note that this is a very hard topic to put into words. Wow....

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