Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Universal Energy or God


  • Please log in to reply
149 replies to this topic

#21 AnjelWolf

AnjelWolf

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 8,727 posts

Posted 14 December 2006 - 05:26 AM

Thanks for responding Brian. I like Thorrsons books on runes also. The idea of the four roots for British pagan witchcraft is stated in his book, "Witchdom of the True".

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, in that I look forward from the present with some knowledge and much respect for the ancestors and what they believed. Would tend to not give up what they believed, but augment it what I sense to be lacking in my own trad as long as it would make sense to consider. For example, we've added some shamanic techniques that would not have been around from back in the day. That makes sense to me because it's a modern vehicle to get to where you want to go and it's the destination, not the vechicle that really matters.

I personally find it difficult sometimes to know what modern beliefs to consider when there are so many available these days. I've studied most of the occult topics around to some depth, so I know the origins of some of the paradigms that abound on the internet these days and those that I know are specific to say the Western Esoteric Hermetic tradition for example, I would tend to not include in my own view of what paganism is since the origin would have probably focused in a certain magical fraternnity in the late 19th century. On the other hand, if I find some pagan or craft practice in a history that is not part of the tradition I hold, I might try to gain a consensus for the incorporation of an analog (if I can get my wife to agree ;) ). Our mentor basically said that same thing you did this way, "Use a drop..." and go on from there. I guess it depends on where you want to go; what direction you want to head in.

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?


You know Roger I truly have to compliment you on this discussion...it is very refreshing to have this topic explored at such depth. The question you asked is a damn fine one as well. Though I cannot speak for others...I feel (on a personal level here) that those who are currently in Paganism/Witchcraft or those who are considering entering this lifestyle...do so knowing that they need to first have the desire to connect with their inner spirituality at the utmost level...as well as have the desire to connect with the (outside) spirituality of their path. And many times connecting with these two levels can be the most difficult and longest journey for one to take upon you know? Sure we can discuss and explore initiations...who is on what path...what spell or chant feels good for whoever and whatever...or even what ritual is the best for a certain situation...but underneath it all...right there in the very heart of the matter lies the spirituality...both of the person and the path. Without one...the other cannot exsist.

  • 0

#22 Storm

Storm

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 14 December 2006 - 06:12 AM

i am very much enjoying what i am reading
  • 0
If you don't live for something, you die for nothing

#23 Guest_wortmistress_*

Guest_wortmistress_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2006 - 07:00 AM

I think what stands out in Trad. Craft is the non-commerciality of it- there are not many books, info out about it, This can be a pro or a con. For me, it's definitely a pro. as it means not so many narrow-minded peeps saying that isn't right or you shouldn't believe in this. You follow the path of the heart. Unless you are part of one of the so- called existing Trad. traditions, you are not bound by rules. I have investigating various Trad. paths/groups and I cannot say I 100% agree with everything. For me, I would HAVE to agree 100% with them to associate myself with them as a specific group. In the future? who can say? I hope that it doesn't go the way of other paths, becoming weakened. By this I mean that, for example, a person can join a group/tradition, have their path firm in front of them, a supporting group etc., then more people come in, bringing diff. aspects(which is good), but then diluting the original form of the group. I've seen this happen with Wicca and other paths(and I know a few lovely Wiccans who are direct lineage to Gardner's coven). The great thing with Trad. Craft is that there ARE NO SET IN STONE GUIDELINES! Even specific Trad. groups are different from others(trust me I know). Some focus on the Shamanic side, some on the Ancestral side, some on protecting the land. We all work in our own ways. Also in the future, I have a vision of Trad. Crafters.(and Pagans in general) re-vitalising the folklore, practices and crafts of our not-so-distant past. So much has been lost last century and part of my path is to research these, and incorporate them into my path. Being in Wales has given me the best opportunity to celebrate alternative festivals to the standard Wiccan inspired ones. I just hope there are other seekers out there who are willing to do this too- much work need to be done!
  • 0

#24 Droghon

Droghon

    Administrator/Host

  • Administrators
  • 2,350 posts

Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:53 PM

Thanks for responding Brian. I like Thorrsons books on runes also. The idea of the four roots for British pagan witchcraft is stated in his book, "Witchdom of the True".
I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, in that I look forward from the present with some knowledge and much respect for the ancestors and what they believed. Would tend to not give up what they believed, but augment it what I sense to be lacking in my own trad as long as it would make sense to consider. For example, we've added some shamanic techniques that would not have been around from back in the day. That makes sense to me because it's a modern vehicle to get to where you want to go and it's the destination, not the vehicle that really matters.


Hi Roger,

I think that way of augmenting the ways of our ancestors with new ways of working is only sensible, I'm sure that's exactly what our ancestors did in their day. Our 'world view' has changed from that of our ancestors and it only makes sense to reevaluate and adapt to the here and now with what feels right, and as you say, gets us to the destination.

I personally find it difficult sometimes to know what modern beliefs to consider when there are so many available these days. I've studied most of the occult topics around to some depth, so I know the origins of some of the paradigms that abound on the internet these days and those that I know are specific to say the Western Esoteric Hermetic tradition for example, I would tend to not include in my own view of what paganism is since the origin would have probably focused in a certain magical fraternity in the late 19th century. On the other hand, if I find some pagan or craft practice in a history that is not part of the tradition I hold, I might try to gain a consensus for the incorporation of an analog (if I can get my wife to agree ). Our mentor basically said that same thing you did this way, "Use a drop..." and go on from there. I guess it depends on where you want to go; what direction you want to head in.


LOL I can sympathise with that view of Western Esoteric Hermeticism from the late 19th Century. I've read and tried to practice some of it in the past, it simply didn't 'talk' to me. Different strokes for different folks. I think with our broadened 'world view' it's good to look at other cultures and traditions, where we can, and see if what they say or use is of use to us. Sometimes we can incorporate things into our traditions that expand it and bring a deeper understanding to us. Your mentor's 'Use a drop ..' is absolutely right, try a little and see what happens, some things will work some won't. I'm sure our ancestors proceeded in exactly that way and called it growth, something we have to keep doing to keep our traditions alive and relevant.

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?


Wow this is a huge and interesting set of questions, very difficult to answer and I can't speak for others, only give some of my own thoughts or hopes (which are subject to change as I grow and learn ;) ).
What AnjelWolf said about spirituality is spot on, I'd expand on it in that, to my view, humanity has advanced technologically over the last 2,000 years but the spiritual growth of humanity in general has not kept pace. I think we have to promote (if that's the right wording) personal spiritual growth, new comers have to realise their is no one true way, there are guideposts on the path that others have seen, but the new comers may experience the path differently, this is to be encouraged, if paganism / witchcraft becomes dogmatic then it will ossify and restrict, rather than free people to find themselves and experience their relationship to their Gods and all that they are.

From a personal point of view, I'd hope that pagans / witches of whatever path grow to see other traditions / beliefs as valid to those that follow them, and that no one group claims to hold a monopoly on 'Truth' which becomes the next 'orthodoxy' - I think we've had enough of that in it's many forms. We don't have to accept or 'convert' to their beliefs, just simply accept that, for them, they are valid. We each talk with our Gods / Goddesses on a personal level and our perceptions of reality / Truth are just as personal, and it's this 'personal' spiritual growth that, for me, is important.

As for what functions should paganism / witchcraft encompass, I'm not sure that I can put a boundary on it. For me, spirituality is all encompassing, it impacts on everything I do in life, part of how I live my life. For new comers to paganism or seeking a new spirituality (as opposed to the monotheistic spiritualities) it may be too vast, too much to take onboard; fine not everyone will seek the deepest levels of spirituality but they can be encouraged to explore. If you believe in reincarnation (I do) then it seems to me that people can grow spiritualy over many incarnations (others may have different views on this, that's fine, it's just how I percieve things to 'work').

As Wortmistress said I see pagans / crafters having to revitalise, or rediscover the folklore of the past and bringing it forth into the 21st Century and beyond.

Vast topic Roger and very stimulating, I know I've only scratched the surface of these areas and I'll likely revisit this over time.

Droghon (or Brian)

I know nothing, I seek everything.


Words of a wise woman .. "OMFG stop being an utter newb and start acting like a proper witch who knows what they are talking about!"

#25 Scott

Scott

    Irritatingly Thoughtful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts

Posted 21 December 2006 - 01:15 AM

Greetings Roger, All

Hey Roger - good to see you ...

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?


Hmmm well I have touched on this often ... I think it is kind of impossible to dicuss anything without doing so but isn't it interesting how difficult it becomes to do JUST that?

Hmmm ok ... well for me I think the direction of modern paganism should be working itself out rather than applying to everyone else for some sort of spurious recognition ... modern witchcraft should be working towards accepting itself as the the conglomerate it is rather than bleating one to another with no solid basis for exploration.

I think that modern witchcraft should be headed all over the place as I don't see it as a single entity at all. I think it is one thing to call or consider a movement in the singular but that this only really
"works" as an abstract and denys it's inherant plurality to the cost of strength, purpose and use.

I have seen and participated in many best intentioned attempts at movements of groups to achieve ..... but frankly the second the movement forgets these salient and necc. things they tend to stumble quickly in my experience.

That being said as the basis for my views on this subject I think that the modern practice needs to look within itself to determine it's individual directions and do their best to progress toward them in and after their own fashions. To this end I do feel that all concerned shoud therefore take on board and utilise any and all practices, beliefs and so on that are not at odds with it's essential nature, that achive the goals better than that which is already held and that aid such growth as best can be.

Fraternally

Scott

  • 0
New Me! Now with added incomprehensibilityfullness for your convenience!

#26 Scott

Scott

    Irritatingly Thoughtful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts

Posted 21 December 2006 - 01:20 AM

Greetings All

Actually I remembered where I put a blart I did on community a while back which I think ties in and is worth at least a light day dream think on ... while it is primarilly obviously Oz based I think it generally holds true else where .... Enjoy

While I think it would be obvious and first on the lips of many to say that I am the LAST person to argue with many of the points put forward;(diplomacy - I can at least SPELL it these days!!*G*) I
think one thing that I would offer some thought on is the word that gets used so often - "Community".

The way I see it there is not even simply one but many communities (Pagan, Occult, Witch, Wiccan, Asatruar, Keltoi etc etc) in Australia. I tend to think that, by and large, they serve the use of the word used for them fairly well to varying degrees - much like their constituents. New ones spring up - largely the result of limited intermingling, they survive the slings and arrows of other communities, tolerate or accept assistance etc where given or disband. They serve (or not) the purposes for which they were created or manifested, further or weaken the goals of the members, leaders and sometimes those of other associated groups and communities - or
not ... and then they die out again thus allowing information to return to a potential state, lessons to be digested and space for other or new ones. When the gods smile on us this flow continues
largely unhindered.

One thing I have always argued against however is that communities require their ingredients; (odd use but I am aiming at the broadest sense here) to "all get along". The way I see it the word "community" requires no special requirement for agreement between it's peoples, nor love, support or any other of the many things that are often used alongside the word as if there was some sort of intrinsic reason for doing so.

While I acknowledge, (and on many occasions have argued, lobbied and etc!) that the inclusion OF such things may well strengthen each individual, the community they belong to and further yet strengthen the ties between the various communities - I feel it is better to not hold the breath for something that (as you point out) rarely if ever flowers ... much less bears fruit.

Unfortunately, I must also state my consideration that by and large, the same holds true in a global sense. The various continents havingmuch the same problems. They are simply expressed or manifested in their own ways peculiar to geography, culture and the temper of the various peoples involved - making it seem somewhat exotic from "here".

It is for this reason largely that I do not include a space in the "mortar for my bricks" for such things. I find that these things in truth actually tend to form AFTER the birth of groups and
communities as a result of interaction fostered by the same.

The individuals within the shelter (so to speak) find themselves together, they tolerate, they conspire, they argue and fight. They form smaller cliques and groupings (whether they come to the community in these groups or form afterwards - they exist overtly and covertly everywhere) they reassess, they learn, forget, come, go, assist and hinder, love, hate, succeed, fail, birth and grieve. It is all of these things being SHARED I have always argued (and seen occur) that forms the sort of bonds that people often confuse with the community in which they occur.

I have despised roundly any number of people in the various communities to which I have belonged (specific wording that) but I would not turn them from my hiding places were they chased by those "from outside". A strange state of affairs I often think but that is the result of many communities I have witnessed and participated in. The better angels of temperament are wonderful and should be cherished when encountered but are not always coming to the beck and call. They are similarly not the be all and end all - much less a necessity to my mind. I don't look for such things but I do cherish the moments when they come to me.

But then again - consider the source ... can you not see the many multitudinous masses clamoring for my friendship? *BG* LOL Still we each in our own way can but do our best for the communities we belong to and serve. We can do this by discovering our own "job" and fulfilling
it's requirements as best we can - they are after all the wyrd that we were manifested to be. Who knows, perhaps it is such activity consciously enacted that may be the bedrock of real community that serves it's purpose most admirably? (O prends pitié de ma longue
misère! *BG*)

Fraternally

Scott

  • 0
New Me! Now with added incomprehensibilityfullness for your convenience!

#27 Anglian Queen

Anglian Queen

    Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPipPip
  • 48 posts

Posted 29 May 2007 - 06:05 PM

Now this is a great thread and one which i've just posted one of my rambles about in another forum! The topic started off about "Will of the Gods?" and wether this was just a xtian concept or not. Well it soon developed into a discussion on what the true nature of the gods is , and was very interesting. This basically sums up my views (as they stand at present!):-

When i first started out in Heathenry, i was constantly pondering the question, "who/what are the gods?", which led to considerations like "most people's round the world have believed in Gods at some point in their history - is this just a natural, innate human thing, are we responding to some instinctual perception of unseen forces within and perhaps "beyond" nature? Are Gods genuine Higher Powers making themselves known to via visions, inspiration, poetry, stories etc wherein they take on human form to teach us important lessons and impart Holy Mysteries etc?" I tried various methods to understand this - reading the lore of course, praying to the gods themselves for answers, asking my ancestors what they understand gods to be from their perspective, all of which have helped me to develop some sense of what "a god" is. For example, i felt very close to Woden in my early heathen days, and i one night asked the question "Woden, who and what are you?" When i fell asleep i had a very vivid dream wherin i could see the breath of my pets and people i knew as a white mist - a voice in the background said "That is me, that is Woden". Now i know this dream is purely UPG but i felt that in it Woden was telling me he is the breath, or the power in the breath, the Aethem if you will, in all beings - he is flowing through me and all else, he is in the wind and air around me all the time, and he is in every song and word. I have come to believe that i can connect to my Wode by deep breathing, literally taking in the essence of the "Master of Wode" himself. It's quite intriguing to me that many meditation disciplines incorporate deep breathing techniques to clear the mind for wisdom to enter - it works! I thank Woden for the gift of life and power in the air i breath and the gift of speech!
Another time i did a hamafaring to see if i could get to visit Thunor's Hall. I eded up in what i took to be Thrydham (is that spelled right in OE?). I found myself in a vast green area, like the gardens of a stately home, with a gigantic hydro-electric power station in the middle of it! Here i felt what i knew was Thunor's power - this was what i can only describe as an ever expanding, immense might which spread out in all directions, making me feel quite "high" and giddy, like i was really strong and could cope with anything. Along with this there a real sense of deep, deep happiness, like everything was fine and i wanted to laugh all the time - I've never felt anything like that happiness before or since (and i swear i wasn't on drugs or anything at the time!) Now when i think of electricity, i think of Thunor - he too is present throughout the world around me and within in every nerve impulse that allows me to feel and move etc etc
now i realise this is a lot of UPG but i'm coming to the point i was originally wanting to make - i believe now i think that Gods are the Wights/spirits of the "greater forces" in nature, and this ties in with an earlier bit of UPG i experienced before i was Heathen when i asked the God Pan what he was, and he told me "We are large energy fields" which i took to mean "big powers at work in the world/cosmos etc". When i say that i believe gods to be essentially "forces of nature" i don't mean that they are just quaint personifications created by primitive minds - i actually believe that just as a Syldaelf is the spirit of a tree and is real and i can communicate with it, a god is the spirit or "living consciousness-essence" of a vast natural force, whcih i can also communicate with. It is real, and can appear to my inner sight in a form i can relate to more easily and talk to. The force i can see, or know the effects of in nature, is only the outward form of the god's power - the god or goddess themself is a much deeper mystery beyond the ken of normal human speech or ways of understanding - this i think is why we have the myths and stories, to understand on a deeper level what our normal waking minds can only barely grasp. NB When i say nature i mean the whole of reality - what we might consider both "natural" and "supernatural" - it is all part of "nature" to me, so a natural force can also be "the force that enables humans to see the unseen", or it can be the force of death and decay, or the force which pulls our soul back to our ancestors when the lich/body dies - just because something is not seen or understood by normal means does not mean it is not part of nature IMO.
Now to come to the original question this thread was deaing with, what of "the will of the gods"? Now to look into this i'd have to go back to some other questions i've always pondered, and one of them is "where did the fire and ice come from?" Now nowhere are we told this, and some heathens may think it a daft question as nobody knows so don't think about it - maybe they just always were? My child-like mind is always wanting to know where things have come from though, what is its root and so on, and so the question for me has never gone away. Now when i think of the whole germanic system, how things seem to work in it and how everything happens and comes into being, the only power which seems to have a hand in absolutely all phenomena and events is Wyrd. Infact if i'm not mistaken, her name means "That which has come into being" or "That which has come to pass" - please correct me if i'm wrong someone. If i'm right with this idea, if all things, all wights, even the gods, are subject to Wyrd, then maybe nothing can exist prior to her in a sense. Maybe i'm casting her in a Brahminic role as "that which has come to be and without which nothing else can exist/happen/manifest". Now maybe i'm wrong and there's some piece of lore somewhere which says Wyrd is the daughter of another Being, but i do wonder how can the power of the "past", or "what has come to be" have anything before it - ie I can imagine that if one saw wyrd herself standing next to any other power in existance, she'd just keep on standing behind it saying - "this is where and who i am". Now if Wyrd is the "Cosmic Mother" of all things that exist in effect (please don't accuse me of being a bit too Wiccan here - i know how it sounds!) then maybe the gods are "agents" of her willl in a cosmic and worldly sense, ie their will is to ensure that everything meets its alloted orlaeg in the best way possible. Therefor, the gods will is the same as Wyrd's, or at least their will reflects what Wyrd has decreed.
Now i know that one of Woden's brother is called Willa, and so maybe he is the god of "Divine Will" - however, i think the term/name here means "Divine force of Desire", or the motivating impetus as a whole in the cosmos and in ourselves, as opposed to exactly what the divine would have, or "will" to happen. I think Willa/Villi is the "Divine Motivator" as in prompting action - I don't believe he himself decides what the action is in other words.
Now someone mentioned the idea of "merging" with a god and someone else said words to the effect that they didn't think we can do that or that it was even desirable since we are meant to be separate individuals, and i'm all for us all being our natural and true individual selves, gods included! However, since i believe that the gods are already part of me and everything else around me, i'm already merged with them all the time in a way, so maybe it is only in the conscious and deliberate recognition of that fact that i can possibly be doing any active "merging" with any of them. I suppose the god i most want to become "at one" with and merge with completely would be Wyrd, then i would be absolutely in harmony, i reckon, with the ultimate "Divine Will". This is my current belief anyway - i am mindfull that these matters are often a long and convoluted process of "unfolding of wisdom" for each of us!
PS Just as an aside i think my personal theology would best be described as animism, though i suppose it does incorporate polytheism, and maybe ultimately monotheism as well, but i reckon in terms of how i approach the divine in practice, it's effectively polytheism, and how i view all things in general, it's animism definitely.

I'd add to this that i think that as far as magic goes, the effects of a spell often act on us from within, removing blockages to our Divine connection and "True Will" if you like, releasing potentials that we can achieve as part of our personal Wyrd and would not have been able to access had the blockage remained. I'm still a bit woolly about that though so my personal gnosis on it might alter slightly in future!

  • 0
HAEL WAES THU, EORTHEN MOTHOR, LAREOW MINE!:wizard:

#28 AnjelWolf

AnjelWolf

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 8,727 posts

Posted 29 May 2007 - 09:09 PM

I'm startingto see this
  • 0

#29 Scott

Scott

    Irritatingly Thoughtful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts

Posted 30 May 2007 - 02:42 AM

Greetings A.Q

Yup yup YUP! is all I can say.

At the end of the day I really do tend to think that things become difficult only when we make them so.

I really liked the vision of Woden in facet to the breath of life and further on into animism.

Personally, (and I say this as someone who has their own Gods) I believe that there is everything and the pssibilities and probabilities of every concievable thing - all the time. It is a constant now wherein every and anything can be (and often is). That there is actuality is only a function of the observer as a form of screen by which the same can fulfill their role as observer.

To me, a part of that is the assinging of vague limits to all things observed and not as a means by which the observer can define themselves and have reference for all they define as "not self". Such limits we term as definitions name and so on. The same can be said of present, past future - afterall you are not reading this as I type it so the use of "present" is at best subjective.

THIS I believe to be the clue that Gardner left some of his followers when he said: "If you find it not within you" or if you prefer Wyrd or Singularity for that matter .. *G*

So there we are, self defining from the all that IS and thereby assigning vague nebulous areas we call this or that. We do this when we meet other people, ("that is Jim" ... subtext Jim is husband to, son to, father to .. etc etc) or Gods for that matter ("that is Vishnu, that is Coyote, that is the Rainbow Serpent, Cosi ama Cosi" etc etc)

It is only when we forget that we are self defining ourself apart from all that is for a reason that we begin to think that there really is separation. This is a fate worse than death and has symptoms like trying to define everything into wee boxes for comfort and the associated belief that such fits the boxes etc ... lol

In many wys I feel that our connection to our respective gods is a matter of properly solving our way back to proper connection with ourselves as a part of that all that is via a sort of observation of manisfestation in reverse. In this sense our gods are us writ big but they are still us - even though they are other in a sense. If one finds it within .. then without .. or vice versa.

The magic is when we are in touch well enough that we discover our wishes manifest - or at least the path of least resistance to the same.

Or something like it. *G* I'll stop now - I'm starting to talk like a psych - or a friend of Oprah's !! LOL

Fraternally

Scott

  • 0
New Me! Now with added incomprehensibilityfullness for your convenience!

#30 Anglian Queen

Anglian Queen

    Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPipPip
  • 48 posts

Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:34 PM

Personally, (and I say this as someone who has their own Gods) I believe that there is everything and the pssibilities and probabilities of every concievable thing - all the time.


I agree with you here 100%! I don't think there are any limits at all to how the "Divine" can manifest itself and make itself known to us, or as to how we as an indivisible part of it can work with it. Even my "bad thoughts" are part of "the divine mind" i believe and have a purpose.


To me, a part of that is the assinging of vague limits to all things observed and not as a means by which the observer can define themselves and have reference for all they define as "not self". Such limits we term as definitions name and so on. The same can be said of present, past future - afterall you are not reading this as I type it so the use of "present" is at best subjective.


Yes, i've heard it said that time is just an imaginary construct for the purposes of physical incarnation - this illusion dissolves once we recognise "all as brahman" so to speak, since "brahman" is everything in all times and places, and therefor if i "become" brahman by simply recognising this - i exist in all times and places and so time ceases to have a meaning in effect. I actually think i'm both an individual entity (as in "individual expression of brahmin/wyrd/dambhala wedo etc"), plus on some level i share the same energy as whatever i point my finger at.




THIS I believe to be the clue that Gardner left some of his followers when he said: "If you find it not within you"



I think he was dead right!




So there we are, self defining from the all that IS and thereby assigning vague nebulous areas we call this or that. We do this when we meet other people, ("that is Jim" ... subtext Jim is husband to, son to, father to .. etc etc) or Gods for that matter ("that is Vishnu, that is Coyote, that is the Rainbow Serpent, Cosi ama Cosi" etc etc)


Yep, again i think the name and form bit is simply to fulfil certain functions, useful for the purposes of "shaping the soul on the anvil of life", but ultimately , like believing that a wave is separate from the ocean it rises from (boy i'm vedic today!), it's an illusion. I prefer to stay grounded by observing the many but seeing the whole as it were. I think this is what is meant by the myth of Woden sacrificing an "eye" to obtain wisdom - he's given up a way of seeing the world - as separate both from himself and the ultimate reality which is Wyrd. I think different pantheons, traditions etc serve to give us different "hats" that we can wear for a while so our soul can develop in some way. If i, for example, decide to wear the Thelema hat for a while, it'll initiate the download of a "programme" in my psyche which will have whatever effect Thelema + AQ equals. The more inclined i am towards a particular path, likely the more intense the effect. A path may prove unworkable for us, but each "hat" will have a benefit, evn if only worn briefly.



It is only when we forget that we are self defining ourself apart from all that is for a reason that we begin to think that there really is separation. This is a fate worse than death and has symptoms like trying to define everything into wee boxes for comfort and the associated belief that such fits the boxes etc ... lol



Yes, being "bewildered by flotsam and jetsam" is indeed trying!





In many wys I feel that our connection to our respective gods is a matter of properly solving our way back to proper connection with ourselves as a part of that all that is via a sort of observation of manisfestation in reverse. In this sense our gods are us writ big but they are still us - even though they are other in a sense. If one finds it within .. then without .. or vice versa.




Yes indeed, perhaps also well put by the vedantic scholar Vivekenanda when he said "we really answer our own prayers, Jesus, Buddha, Allah are simply names for what is one and the same as our own Atman [soul]". I think you also echo here the line from the Upanishads which declares "The one who sees the self within all and all within the self feels no bitterness - that soul does not need to hide"

Great chat - i'm really enjoying this thread!

  • 0
HAEL WAES THU, EORTHEN MOTHOR, LAREOW MINE!:wizard:

#31 arabi

arabi

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 05:44 AM

Feeling like the odd ball out here but what the hell. This is a great thread and thought provoking.
I see things in a Jungian sort of way. Pehaps the deities are simply thoughtforms manifested and fed power and energy throughout the ages by humans. Kinda like a big ass fetch that ultimately has taken on the traits of thousands if not millions of people throughout the ages all concentrating on the agreed traits. Offerings, rituals, chants,etc send out waves of energy. If everyone is focusing on the same thing...well. Few worship Zeus any longer, is Zeus any less accessable than say, Pan or Adonis? Over the past 15 yrs or so (could be longer but thats when I noticed the upsurge) there has been a revival of the energy known as Hecate. I have sensed "her" presence and am especially drawn to it, but would that energy have felt the same to me say, 100 years ago when probably very few were acknowledging/working with "her"? I dont know?
We *know* that our thoughts manifest into reality, perhaps this is the prime example of those actions? The mind is a powerful tool, combined with will and intent can create anything that is truly desired.
To me, energy is energy. I make it divine or not, it is the same energy as what makes a light bulb function. I dont worship deities simply because I think that I am energy itself just in a different form. I wouldnt worship a light bulb or myself either;). That said, I am fully aware of the energy around me and of all its magnificent forms/beings. Lets just say that I respect the hell out of it and try to work in balance (positive and negative) with the myriad of forms "out there". Nature for example, to me is not kind and cruel, it simply *is* what it is...a complex blending of different forms of energy, some pleasant...some not. We attach an idea or emotion to it so that we can better comprehend it. Compartmentalize, I think someone said...absolutely.

Ok well its late and I'm not pleased with my articulation on this...been up for way too many hours and the xanax has finally kicked in... I will attempt to clarify this in the am if needed.:cool:

  • 0
Somewhere, however far or near, there is something very dark and grim hurtling toward each one of us. We just don't know when it will hit. Then, quite suddenly, it won't be all right at all.

#32 Anglian Queen

Anglian Queen

    Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPipPip
  • 48 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:47 PM

Over the past 15 yrs or so (could be longer but thats when I noticed the upsurge) there has been a revival of the energy known as Hecate. I have sensed "her" presence and am especially drawn to it, but would that energy have felt the same to me say, 100 years ago when probably very few were acknowledging/working with "her"? I dont know?


I've felt drawn to Hecate in the past too - a very powerful pull that was! I certainly think gods can "lie dormant" until their "time" comes round again - maybe their energy is rather like a series of dams, which once the blockage to their flow is gradually removed, start to surge forth again. I think this might have started during the enlightenment when the church very gradually started to lose its hold on people's minds. The question as to wehter or not "we or they" are resposible for this "release of forces" meets in the middle for me really, since i think their energy is both internal and external. Yes, maybe "Hecate Herself" (percieved as an external "other")did hold up her torches to me so to speak, but maybe i could just see it as the "Hecate part of me" illuminating something in a way eminently suited to that godform, and the "Hecate in others" is doing the same thing - to me it's all "Hecate", wether percieved as internal or external, "dressed up" by humans or "dressing up" for them - the energy/power whatever is for me one and the same. Like scott mentioned, i don't think it (or we) has/have any limits really. I don't think your viewing everything as "just energy" makes you an oddball either - you're simply viewing it all "as it is" (in quantum physical/scientific terms perhaps), whilst i'm maybe viewing through an instinctual human lens of "religious awe" specific to a particular culture and its language. I think both perceptions are useful and valid.


Nature for example, to me is not kind and cruel, it simply *is* what it is...a complex blending of different forms of energy, some pleasant...some not.

.

Agreed 100% - i think the whole "angel/demon" thing is "how things feel for humans", not necessarily "things as they really are". There'd be no evolution without diseases, maggots, crap eating flies etc etc Their energy or "spirit" for me comes from the same source as a kitten or a rainbow ultimately.

PS - cool Myspace page Arabi! We have some interests in common - i like organic stuff and am a Manson fan as well! I'm really sorry to hear about your tragic losses recently. Hope the horse-training etc goes well anyway. I think we'll all be rootin' for ya!

  • 0
HAEL WAES THU, EORTHEN MOTHOR, LAREOW MINE!:wizard:

#33 arabi

arabi

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,323 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:15 PM

Thanks AQ. Glad you liked it. :D
  • 0
Somewhere, however far or near, there is something very dark and grim hurtling toward each one of us. We just don't know when it will hit. Then, quite suddenly, it won't be all right at all.

#34 Scott

Scott

    Irritatingly Thoughtful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 788 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:11 PM

Greetings All

Well I am really pressed for time and just before bed too so I'll try to just say the most pithy thing that came to mind on this and one or tow others.

Hopefully next week I'll have a bit more time ...

All of teh above yes ... and then once when I was asked if I therefore due to that thought all were one god I said no and I explained it best by saying that it was worth remembering that while many wee cubes make up a Rubik's cube - that don't help me solve it.

I like the hats ... for me as I once said it - imagine that when you encounter me happy I am in fact a totally different person to when I am sad. Different names ... the lot. It is one of the simplest ways I remember that the "parts of" does not necc require likeness. It is that in itself I think (at this late hour scrambled as I am) that allows me to have worked with archetypes, stereotypes and also external agency MUCH in teh same manner while getting the best out of each as separate and different activities.

Surprising in some ways when I think on it! lol

Fraternally

Scott

  • 0
New Me! Now with added incomprehensibilityfullness for your convenience!

#35 Guest_finyacluck_*

Guest_finyacluck_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 October 2007 - 07:45 AM

i too agree with original statement and general jist of replies. I believe that tantamount to our believes, perhaps the core value, is this notion of two seperate, balanced, interlinking male and female energies that are relyant on each other:yingyang:. Personally I also believe that it is impossible for anyone to understand their make-up and obviously there are many different personal ways of identifying or tapping into it, but being a pagan i identify with them mostly in a human form when praising, then in their various natural forms when working, e.q. trees, plants, stones etc.


Hmmm (unfortunatly there is no smilie stroking its chin methodically)

  • 0

#36 Sandy

Sandy

    Administrator/Hostess

  • Administrators
  • 2,390 posts

Posted 14 October 2007 - 08:30 AM

but being a pagan i identify with them mostly in a human form when praising, then in their various natural forms when working, e.q. trees, plants, stones etc.


Interesting :) so are you Pagan or a witch? And how exactly does one Praise something? just curious - I might use another term - praise is a word I haven't heard since I was 7 in church with the brownies

Posted Image
A Traditional Poker Posted Image (poke it with a stick and see what happens)
"Most important things in life; Good Food, Good Wine, Good Sex and a Damn Good Giggle!" Posted Image
Visit my Website: www.sandycristel.com
Visit my BLOG: www.blog.sandycristel.com
Follow me on TWITTER: http://twitter.com/SandyCristel

#37 Guest_finyacluck_*

Guest_finyacluck_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:12 AM

So you cant praise a spirit or a diety in the hope of using its guidence if you cast spells, i.e. are a witch?
  • 0

#38 Sandy

Sandy

    Administrator/Hostess

  • Administrators
  • 2,390 posts

Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:14 AM

No generally we dont "praise" or "worship" like Xtians or Wiccans would, we work with them not for them.
Posted Image
A Traditional Poker Posted Image (poke it with a stick and see what happens)
"Most important things in life; Good Food, Good Wine, Good Sex and a Damn Good Giggle!" Posted Image
Visit my Website: www.sandycristel.com
Visit my BLOG: www.blog.sandycristel.com
Follow me on TWITTER: http://twitter.com/SandyCristel

#39 Guest_finyacluck_*

Guest_finyacluck_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:43 AM

i agree, but you could also look at it that they work for us when we show them respect. I understand 'praise' might not have been the right word, i just cant think of the right one now.
  • 0

#40 Michele

Michele

    The Exiled Goddess

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7,033 posts

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:07 PM

At the risk of sounding very wack (something i seem to do often - lol), in a way I can understand the praise thing, but the word praise in not quite right (for me)... maybe connect? Maybe a need to feel there is something bigger out there than me/us? I once had a dream that I died. I was "dead" in the dream and floated off. I can't remember what the surrounding area was like (unfortunately) I just remember thinking "well, this isn't so bad" and floating about. But then I realized I was alone. I wasn't threatened by anything and there was nothing to fear, but I was alone. At that point I started to get a bit nervous (okay, okay... panic - lol), and I suddenly thought... oh I know... call someone... call the gods or someone I "know." I started to call but then woke up. I have often wondered about this dream. Why was I scared at being alone? Why had I felt alone? I have always had the need/want to have someting I love, be it goldfish, cat, dog, sig. other...etc. Is that my own insecurities and neurosis or merely me being human? I'm not always good at making my point, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I can understanding choosing to believe in something one can, if not praise per se (sp), then at least have a bond with. Something that we see as bigger than us and therefore knowing the ropes if we don't and something there is a mutual careing for. Reading back over this, I can see I haven't written it just right, but do you get the jist? Or should I go hire a psychlogist??? lol. I very much enjoy "down time" and being alone to "do my thing," but I like to feel a connection to something. It's not something I praise, but it is something I respect and something I feel a "bond" with and something I am already a part of, but it's bigger than that. Okay, my dog is pawing at me and telling me I should quit typing while I'm ahead and take him out. :-)
  • 0