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Sandy

Universal Energy or God

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Universal Energy! Isn't that in simple terms what "God" is?

 

Energy that comes from all around us and is within everything, not just on this Earth but also the moon, the stars the whole Universe. It is there to be used and tapped into when you need it, you can focus it. Every thought form is an energy so although there are different "levels" of the Universal energy it all makes up the whole energy of the Universe.

 

Divine energy is the highest level in which we all wish to become, isn't this why we have to live mortal lives, to progress spiritually, to become closer to the Divine?

 

Sorry I know I am rambling but we all know that energy itself has to have a positive and receptive/negative "feed", it has to have it or there will be no energy in the first place, and lets face it, without it we have no earth - it has to spin somehow right!

 

Then, where the God/Goddess, Lord/Lady comes into play is actually giving the positive and receptive a name as most people need someone to call rather than something - postive being Male and receptive being Female. So is this itself the Divine, the energies combined?

 

I feel that the Dieties represent all the forms of energy that can be focused from the Universe and as I said before, it can be far easier to invoke Pan for example or Diana as a "Godlike person" rather than as a specific energy force.

 

It's 6am here so if I have just spouted complete and utter bollocks, please say :D :D

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I can agree with that Sandy, I think giving names to Gods / Goddesses is a human trait, we need to make them accessible and 'human like' (probably the wrong word but who gives a shit, it's as close as I can come to at the moment) :)

 

I think the Gods / Goddesses make themselves known to each one of us in the manner most suited to the lesson to be learned and in the most appropriate form to try and imprint the lesson. The Gods / Goddesses are real to each and every one of us, others may disagree on our 'vision' of them .. but does that matter? NO, we make our own realities, we perceive things individually and what is real to you or I may not be real for someone else .. GOOD, it'd be a bloody boring world and life if we all perceived things exactly the same way.

 

Others perceptions of reality provide a way to enlighten us, to make us question our own perceptions and either amend our perceptions or accept that our own perception works better for us.

 

For a post at 6AM I think you stated your perceptions well, it's a difficult area, we tend to feel or see internally what we mean, it's just putting things into words that is difficult.

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Guest wortmistress

Yep, we as humans need to compartmentalise and label our beliefs, experiences etc, and indeed by personification we can relate more easily to these. I personally find it fascinating that many religions, and countries have comparable dieties. Did we all at one point in time have the means to communicate with higher beings and therefore share the same genre of dieties? I liked what you said Droghon re: choosing your deity etc. acc. to lessons needing to be learned. For me it supports those people who wish to mix their pantheons but also as many dieties are repeated with diff. names in diff. pantheons, it also supports that case too!

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Guest plymtom

Yes I too can agree with all that ;) human trait indeed you could say that everyone else is not so muck barking up the wrong tree with their version of deity or religion, more likely all barking at the same one seen from a different and probably unique to the individual's perspective

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As my previous little signature said: We are all different flowers but lean towards the same sun!

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Yep, I would have to sign up for that view point. I think I have said elsewhere here that I focus on a God and Goddess, but in truth that means I focus on a God but refuse to think in male or female only terms. I also remember reading a posting somewhere on this forum about people considering god as being ones own higher self, which is I think a very valid view point although I cannot think of god in quite those terms.

 

I did remember a smile creeping across my face though when I read that view point, because I very much believe that you can search for god everywhere until you are blue in the face, but you will never find god unless you find him/her first on the inside. So maybe our two thoughts are not so very far away really. :)

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I did remember a smile creeping across my face though when I read that view point, because I very much believe that you can search for god everywhere until you are blue in the face, but you will never find god unless you find him/her first on the inside. So maybe our two thoughts are not so very far away really. :)

 

I think that statement is very true DarkMere, unless we find the divine within oursleves, we won't find it elsewhere. And I don't think our thoughts are so very far away at all.

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I know this thread is a month old but I was struck by it. I have spent the last couple of weeks thinking nothing but of what I believe and came to the conclusiont that the God and Goddess which I envision are both projections of what is within me. I imagine that is why we all have these different projections of this natural power because we all relate it to our own inner diety.

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Greetings All

 

Well and why not I say? Afterall it is a biggish place this collection of multiverses and to mangle a quote is filled with creatures beyond number where wee furry folk like myself must seem unremarkable in comparison.

 

But there are lots of different also people out there big and small ... the trait to give em all names so they don't seem cary is one humans excell at ... I like always to remind myself that simply that I give a name and borders to whatever I am observing or experiencing at any given time .. that is where *I* decide the boundaries are.

 

And as we all know we have tendancies to believe any number of things to make ourselves feel comfortable .... not that that makes em true! *G*

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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Spot on, learned from studies of place names; names are mostly given by others, if you live somewhere, you know where you live, only an outsider will need to name it! My take is that its like this in this case, if you work with a Spirit or Diety you will know who it is, so its not so important to name it, it just is! Think sum old guy said * I think therefore I am*, reckon thats a similar sort of thing. Sorry if I have offended anyone, not my intention to! Just voicing an opinion!:cool:

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?Universal Energy! Isn't that in simple terms what "God" is?

 

Energy that comes from all around us and is within everything, not just on this Earth but also the moon, the stars the whole Universe. It is there to be used and tapped into when you need it, you can focus it. Every thought form is an energy so although there are different "levels" of the Universal energy it all makes up the whole energy of the Universe.

 

Divine energy is the highest level in which we all wish to become, isn't this why we have to live mortal lives, to progress spiritually, to become closer to the Divine??

>>>I don?t have this view, but take a different angle into this most mysterious metaphysic. Take a peek at Brian Bates website and see what he has written about Wyrd: http://www.wayofwyrd.com/introduction_pc.html This is more along the lines what I think.

 

Sorry I know I am rambling but we all know that energy itself has to have a positive and receptive/negative "feed", it has to have it or there will be no energy in the first place, and lets face it, without it we have no earth - it has to spin somehow right!

>>>The energies and forces of the universe take on various characteristics depending on the type of energy. Electric fields have an inherent characteristic that is different than magnetic fields. Likewise, gravitational and nuclear fields have different characteristics as well. Of course, there are other types of powers that haven?t yet been ?discovered? by scientists and these too have different characteristics.

 

Then, where the God/Goddess, Lord/Lady comes into play is actually giving the positive and receptive a name as most people need someone to call rather than something - postive being Male and receptive being Female. So is this itself the Divine, the energies combined?

 

I feel that the Dieties represent all the forms of energy that can be focused from the Universe and as I said before, it can be far easier to invoke Pan for example or Diana as a "Godlike person" rather than as a specific energy force.

>>> I?m a polytheist who believes in the individuality of the gods; that they're all different in a analogous way we are all different. I believe that there exists a multitude of entities that only have a ?non-corporeal? existence and that some are ?Great? (like Fate) and some are formally human (the Mighty Dead) and some are ?smaller? (like spirits of nature). I believe that all are sacred.

Very interesting topic for discussion.

Roger

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Roger thank you for this link and your views. I love hearing about this subject but not too many people are willing to come forward and say anything about it. I could literally sit and listen for hours and hours about what "God" means to each individual.

 

I am always very open on this subject and crave to absorb as much information as I can. My views change all the time and when I am enlightened by something that fits better than my current thought then I have no problem in embracing it.

 

I can fully relate to and even practise in my daily life what was written on that webiste.

 

"Our Anglo-Saxon ancestors believed in a universe where lines of power ran through the earth, spirits inhabited the trees, streams and stones, and where magicians were able to look into the future through the mysterious power of runes"

 

This is a Shamanic way of thinking and one that I personally feel very attuned to. Myself and Brian have been searching for a good leyline website or book which covers Europe as well as the UK, but its damn hard to find anything decent!! I could get out there myself with a dowsing stick I guess LOL .. I can just see my neighbours now!! HAHA

 

Would you consider this "Wryd" as actually "God" though or just a Shamanic way of connecting with the Divine? Either way, connecting on this level certainly works for me and this is exactly what my workshop (that I am setting up with my Shamanic friend in Germany) will be teaching to our Catholic local villagers in the coming year!

 

However, my initial question (or rather rambling thoughts) was more about "What" is the Divine, rather than a way of working to attain Nirvana.

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Sandy wrote, "Would you consider this "Wryd" as actually "God" though or just a Shamanic way of connecting with the Divine? "

 

>>>the great ones are the weavers of the web of wyrd. We and the Gods and indeed all things exist as part of this weaving. This is why the weavers are called "Fate". We are connected to the Gods and all things via the "threads" of the web. This is why I don't view the Gods as "energy", but as seperate indivuals, just like we are seperate individuals - but we are all connected! Very nice metaphysic imho. This paradigm is fairly robust and cannot be described here in a simple email posting, however, it is a fairly complete in it's ability to address most of the questions relavent to the topic raised.

 

On a slightly off topic side ramp, I believe Edred Thorrson's theory that there are four main contributors to British paganism/witchcraft: Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Northern (including Vanic), and aboriginal (which is probably Celtic or proto-celtic if I can use the term). Brian Bates' work focuses on the anglo-saxon part. Interestingly, the nomenclature for the Lord and Lady for the God and Goddess come from the Vanic influence according; Freyr and Freyja are not names but titles: Lord and Lady. Of course, we have the day of the week Friday named for one of them.

 

I think it's interesting to study each of the roots of the British tradition, but I always remember that they came together and evolved over the years.

 

I also think that the anglo-saxon influence brought in a shamanic element which may have become part of the British tradition as well. This is why I think it is always a good idea to study a bit of shamanism in conjunction with this path.

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Thanks for clarifying that Roger. Very interesting. I have to admit for me personally I am more Gnostic/Shamanic than seeing Gods more as individual entities but I do feel that that God energy is in everything and that we are all part of a higher conciousness or "the web" if you like.

 

When we really break it all down it seems like the end is more or less the same, we all just have different ways of seeing it, which I feel is very healthy and proves even moreso we are all individuals and do not need or require a "leader" as such.

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Thanks for clarifying that Roger. Very interesting. I have to admit for me personally I am more Gnostic/Shamanic than seeing Gods more as individual entities but I do feel that that God energy is in everything and that we are all part of a higher conciousness or "the web" if you like.

 

I also feel the same here when it comes to the god energy. I tend to lean more on the Shaman side of spirituality. To me its the spiritual energy...Shaman energy is you want to put a name on it....more than god like forms.

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Thanks for posting Roger, very interesting!

 

I agree on the idea of Wyrd and the use of runes and have read Edred Thorsson's books with interest (my own familly roots are, like most British people I expect, a rich mix of Norse, Angle, Celt) and agree on his theory that each of these (and others) have influenced paganism / witchcraft in the UK.

 

I think such 'cross fertilisation' of ideas is something that has contributed to the diversity of witchcraft in the UK and has been a major component in keeping witchcraft relevant to the times. As you say, it's interesting to study the past, but as our ancestors did, we move forward.

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Thanks for responding Brian. I like Thorrsons books on runes also. The idea of the four roots for British pagan witchcraft is stated in his book, "Witchdom of the True".

 

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, in that I look forward from the present with some knowledge and much respect for the ancestors and what they believed. Would tend to not give up what they believed, but augment it what I sense to be lacking in my own trad as long as it would make sense to consider. For example, we've added some shamanic techniques that would not have been around from back in the day. That makes sense to me because it's a modern vehicle to get to where you want to go and it's the destination, not the vechicle that really matters.

 

I personally find it difficult sometimes to know what modern beliefs to consider when there are so many available these days. I've studied most of the occult topics around to some depth, so I know the origins of some of the paradigms that abound on the internet these days and those that I know are specific to say the Western Esoteric Hermetic tradition for example, I would tend to not include in my own view of what paganism is since the origin would have probably focused in a certain magical fraternnity in the late 19th century. On the other hand, if I find some pagan or craft practice in a history that is not part of the tradition I hold, I might try to gain a consensus for the incorporation of an analog (if I can get my wife to agree ;) ). Our mentor basically said that same thing you did this way, "Use a drop..." and go on from there. I guess it depends on where you want to go; what direction you want to head in.

 

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?

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Thanks for responding Brian. I like Thorrsons books on runes also. The idea of the four roots for British pagan witchcraft is stated in his book, "Witchdom of the True".

 

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, in that I look forward from the present with some knowledge and much respect for the ancestors and what they believed. Would tend to not give up what they believed, but augment it what I sense to be lacking in my own trad as long as it would make sense to consider. For example, we've added some shamanic techniques that would not have been around from back in the day. That makes sense to me because it's a modern vehicle to get to where you want to go and it's the destination, not the vechicle that really matters.

 

I personally find it difficult sometimes to know what modern beliefs to consider when there are so many available these days. I've studied most of the occult topics around to some depth, so I know the origins of some of the paradigms that abound on the internet these days and those that I know are specific to say the Western Esoteric Hermetic tradition for example, I would tend to not include in my own view of what paganism is since the origin would have probably focused in a certain magical fraternnity in the late 19th century. On the other hand, if I find some pagan or craft practice in a history that is not part of the tradition I hold, I might try to gain a consensus for the incorporation of an analog (if I can get my wife to agree ;) ). Our mentor basically said that same thing you did this way, "Use a drop..." and go on from there. I guess it depends on where you want to go; what direction you want to head in.

 

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?

 

You know Roger I truly have to compliment you on this discussion...it is very refreshing to have this topic explored at such depth. The question you asked is a damn fine one as well. Though I cannot speak for others...I feel (on a personal level here) that those who are currently in Paganism/Witchcraft or those who are considering entering this lifestyle...do so knowing that they need to first have the desire to connect with their inner spirituality at the utmost level...as well as have the desire to connect with the (outside) spirituality of their path. And many times connecting with these two levels can be the most difficult and longest journey for one to take upon you know? Sure we can discuss and explore initiations...who is on what path...what spell or chant feels good for whoever and whatever...or even what ritual is the best for a certain situation...but underneath it all...right there in the very heart of the matter lies the spirituality...both of the person and the path. Without one...the other cannot exsist.

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Guest wortmistress

I think what stands out in Trad. Craft is the non-commerciality of it- there are not many books, info out about it, This can be a pro or a con. For me, it's definitely a pro. as it means not so many narrow-minded peeps saying that isn't right or you shouldn't believe in this. You follow the path of the heart. Unless you are part of one of the so- called existing Trad. traditions, you are not bound by rules. I have investigating various Trad. paths/groups and I cannot say I 100% agree with everything. For me, I would HAVE to agree 100% with them to associate myself with them as a specific group. In the future? who can say? I hope that it doesn't go the way of other paths, becoming weakened. By this I mean that, for example, a person can join a group/tradition, have their path firm in front of them, a supporting group etc., then more people come in, bringing diff. aspects(which is good), but then diluting the original form of the group. I've seen this happen with Wicca and other paths(and I know a few lovely Wiccans who are direct lineage to Gardner's coven). The great thing with Trad. Craft is that there ARE NO SET IN STONE GUIDELINES! Even specific Trad. groups are different from others(trust me I know). Some focus on the Shamanic side, some on the Ancestral side, some on protecting the land. We all work in our own ways. Also in the future, I have a vision of Trad. Crafters.(and Pagans in general) re-vitalising the folklore, practices and crafts of our not-so-distant past. So much has been lost last century and part of my path is to research these, and incorporate them into my path. Being in Wales has given me the best opportunity to celebrate alternative festivals to the standard Wiccan inspired ones. I just hope there are other seekers out there who are willing to do this too- much work need to be done!

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Thanks for responding Brian. I like Thorrsons books on runes also. The idea of the four roots for British pagan witchcraft is stated in his book, "Witchdom of the True".

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I guess, in that I look forward from the present with some knowledge and much respect for the ancestors and what they believed. Would tend to not give up what they believed, but augment it what I sense to be lacking in my own trad as long as it would make sense to consider. For example, we've added some shamanic techniques that would not have been around from back in the day. That makes sense to me because it's a modern vehicle to get to where you want to go and it's the destination, not the vehicle that really matters.

 

Hi Roger,

 

I think that way of augmenting the ways of our ancestors with new ways of working is only sensible, I'm sure that's exactly what our ancestors did in their day. Our 'world view' has changed from that of our ancestors and it only makes sense to reevaluate and adapt to the here and now with what feels right, and as you say, gets us to the destination.

 

I personally find it difficult sometimes to know what modern beliefs to consider when there are so many available these days. I've studied most of the occult topics around to some depth, so I know the origins of some of the paradigms that abound on the internet these days and those that I know are specific to say the Western Esoteric Hermetic tradition for example, I would tend to not include in my own view of what paganism is since the origin would have probably focused in a certain magical fraternity in the late 19th century. On the other hand, if I find some pagan or craft practice in a history that is not part of the tradition I hold, I might try to gain a consensus for the incorporation of an analog (if I can get my wife to agree ). Our mentor basically said that same thing you did this way, "Use a drop..." and go on from there. I guess it depends on where you want to go; what direction you want to head in.

 

LOL I can sympathise with that view of Western Esoteric Hermeticism from the late 19th Century. I've read and tried to practice some of it in the past, it simply didn't 'talk' to me. Different strokes for different folks. I think with our broadened 'world view' it's good to look at other cultures and traditions, where we can, and see if what they say or use is of use to us. Sometimes we can incorporate things into our traditions that expand it and bring a deeper understanding to us. Your mentor's 'Use a drop ..' is absolutely right, try a little and see what happens, some things will work some won't. I'm sure our ancestors proceeded in exactly that way and called it growth, something we have to keep doing to keep our traditions alive and relevant.

 

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?

 

Wow this is a huge and interesting set of questions, very difficult to answer and I can't speak for others, only give some of my own thoughts or hopes (which are subject to change as I grow and learn ;) ).

What AnjelWolf said about spirituality is spot on, I'd expand on it in that, to my view, humanity has advanced technologically over the last 2,000 years but the spiritual growth of humanity in general has not kept pace. I think we have to promote (if that's the right wording) personal spiritual growth, new comers have to realise their is no one true way, there are guideposts on the path that others have seen, but the new comers may experience the path differently, this is to be encouraged, if paganism / witchcraft becomes dogmatic then it will ossify and restrict, rather than free people to find themselves and experience their relationship to their Gods and all that they are.

 

From a personal point of view, I'd hope that pagans / witches of whatever path grow to see other traditions / beliefs as valid to those that follow them, and that no one group claims to hold a monopoly on 'Truth' which becomes the next 'orthodoxy' - I think we've had enough of that in it's many forms. We don't have to accept or 'convert' to their beliefs, just simply accept that, for them, they are valid. We each talk with our Gods / Goddesses on a personal level and our perceptions of reality / Truth are just as personal, and it's this 'personal' spiritual growth that, for me, is important.

 

As for what functions should paganism / witchcraft encompass, I'm not sure that I can put a boundary on it. For me, spirituality is all encompassing, it impacts on everything I do in life, part of how I live my life. For new comers to paganism or seeking a new spirituality (as opposed to the monotheistic spiritualities) it may be too vast, too much to take onboard; fine not everyone will seek the deepest levels of spirituality but they can be encouraged to explore. If you believe in reincarnation (I do) then it seems to me that people can grow spiritualy over many incarnations (others may have different views on this, that's fine, it's just how I percieve things to 'work').

 

As Wortmistress said I see pagans / crafters having to revitalise, or rediscover the folklore of the past and bringing it forth into the 21st Century and beyond.

 

Vast topic Roger and very stimulating, I know I've only scratched the surface of these areas and I'll likely revisit this over time.

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Greetings Roger, All

 

Hey Roger - good to see you ...

 

If I may ask, I'm interested in what you and Sandy (and others as well of course) should be the direction of modern paganism/witchcraft? Where do you think modern witchcraft should be going? What functions should it encompass as it's own?

 

Hmmm well I have touched on this often ... I think it is kind of impossible to dicuss anything without doing so but isn't it interesting how difficult it becomes to do JUST that?

 

Hmmm ok ... well for me I think the direction of modern paganism should be working itself out rather than applying to everyone else for some sort of spurious recognition ... modern witchcraft should be working towards accepting itself as the the conglomerate it is rather than bleating one to another with no solid basis for exploration.

 

I think that modern witchcraft should be headed all over the place as I don't see it as a single entity at all. I think it is one thing to call or consider a movement in the singular but that this only really

"works" as an abstract and denys it's inherant plurality to the cost of strength, purpose and use.

 

I have seen and participated in many best intentioned attempts at movements of groups to achieve ..... but frankly the second the movement forgets these salient and necc. things they tend to stumble quickly in my experience.

 

That being said as the basis for my views on this subject I think that the modern practice needs to look within itself to determine it's individual directions and do their best to progress toward them in and after their own fashions. To this end I do feel that all concerned shoud therefore take on board and utilise any and all practices, beliefs and so on that are not at odds with it's essential nature, that achive the goals better than that which is already held and that aid such growth as best can be.

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

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