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I think I finally get it now!


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#1 Guest_Danielle_*

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 03:36 PM

The more I find out about this the more I talk about it at home! anyway I was thinking here
If you were harmed and did a spell for justice (just justice) and ended up getting the attacker hurt.... If your Wiccan that would be seen as BAD and unethical..... None the same its not the person who actually meant to do harm, even if it was needed even if they did deserve it.... Which is dumb LOL... (like I said in my previous post I am slow but lets be fair here I have been out of practice on a lot until recently.... I have 5 kids 8,5,3,3,1)
I take no issue with magic though, I just didnt do "formal" rituals anymore.... but if someone was sick I made soup which had herbs for healing (kitchen witch here!) I made Zuke bread (dont ask me to spell the whole word) for prosperity and abundance I knit and crochet and if its a gift I am thinking of protection or harmony (or what have you just depends on who its for I made a gift for my friends son who has many medical issues and I was thinking of wellness for him) because *I* consider my knitting or crocheting knot magic.
hmmmm I think I am answering my own questions here!
And again I think I am confused with the differences (I DO see them) because all of the Wiccan stuff I threw out or was thinking about no longer using is the stuff that Trad Crafters dont use. I am solitary and I only use what calls to me (though I'll try out some stuff that doesnt to give a fair shot) but if it doesnt work for me I dont use it!


#2 AnjelWolf

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 04:55 PM

Basically if it doesnt work for you then don't use it.

We are trads here...not wiccans...which means we don't follow any of their rules, we don't believe we can heal the world with a love song...if we need to throw a curse and or a hex then we do so without feeling guilt...we do love spells...we manipulate energy...etc.

If you can handle that then fine...if not then be true to yourself and keep searching for what suits you best.



The more I find out about this the more I talk about it at home! anyway I was thinking here
If you were harmed and did a spell for justice (just justice) and ended up getting the attacker hurt.... If your Wiccan that would be seen as BAD and unethical..... None the same its not the person who actually meant to do harm, even if it was needed even if they did deserve it.... Which is dumb LOL... (like I said in my previous post I am slow but lets be fair here I have been out of practice on a lot until recently.... I have 5 kids 8,5,3,3,1)
I take no issue with magic though, I just didnt do "formal" rituals anymore.... but if someone was sick I made soup which had herbs for healing (kitchen witch here!) I made Zuke bread (dont ask me to spell the whole word) for prosperity and abundance I knit and crochet and if its a gift I am thinking of protection or harmony (or what have you just depends on who its for I made a gift for my friends son who has many medical issues and I was thinking of wellness for him) because *I* consider my knitting or crocheting knot magic.
hmmmm I think I am answering my own questions here!
And again I think I am confused with the differences (I DO see them) because all of the Wiccan stuff I threw out or was thinking about no longer using is the stuff that Trad Crafters dont use. I am solitary and I only use what calls to me (though I'll try out some stuff that doesnt to give a fair shot) but if it doesnt work for me I dont use it!



#3 Guest_Danielle_*

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 05:29 PM

74

Basically if it doesnt work for you then don't use it.

We are trads here...not wiccans...which means we don't follow any of their rules, we don't believe we can heal the world with a love song...if we need to throw a curse and or a hex then we do so without feeling guilt...we do love spells...we manipulate energy...etc.

If you can handle that then fine...if not then be true to yourself and keep searching for what suits you best.


YEP! I can handle that! I just need to study more on hexes and curses to see their uses (I have in VERY minor ways) I do have a few books that cover that.... Just the "fluffy bunny" side said thats not "us" LOL even though I KNEW that others did "darker arts" (gee now I sound like something from Harry Potter) with no ill effects..... ummmm voodoo anyone? (and yes I know its misunderstood) I have done love spells though just open ones and I did a spell on a friend to have the truth come out..... I dont really think these are really Wiccan spells LOL in hindsight (and these were some of my first ones!)
I think I answered my big questions though since I have been trying to decide if I am really Wiccan or not..... thats a NO I may have some Wiccan inspired traits or things I do but all in all not Wiccan anymore (if I ever REALLY was haha)


#4 AnjelWolf

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:26 PM

Well yes some of us on here do voodoo...Santeria...hoodoo...etc.



74

YEP! I can handle that! I just need to study more on hexes and curses to see their uses (I have in VERY minor ways) I do have a few books that cover that.... Just the "fluffy bunny" side said thats not "us" LOL even though I KNEW that others did "darker arts" (gee now I sound like something from Harry Potter) with no ill effects..... ummmm voodoo anyone? (and yes I know its misunderstood) I have done love spells though just open ones and I did a spell on a friend to have the truth come out..... I dont really think these are really Wiccan spells LOL in hindsight (and these were some of my first ones!)
I think I answered my big questions though since I have been trying to decide if I am really Wiccan or not..... thats a NO I may have some Wiccan inspired traits or things I do but all in all not Wiccan anymore (if I ever REALLY was haha)



#5 wolfjan1

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:32 PM

Sometimes our best protection spells and bindings are not enough. We just have to stop offenders in their tracks. Force them to see the crime they committed from a different point of view.
I cannot speak for others, but that is usually the reason the "darker" curses and hexes go out.


#6 Guest_ThePopeVI_*

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 05:18 AM

Sometimes our best protection spells and bindings are not enough. We just have to stop offenders in their tracks. Force them to see the crime they committed from a different point of view.
I cannot speak for others, but that is usually the reason the "darker" curses and hexes go out.


Thats what I always figured anyway, seems to me if your hexing people just for fun, your asking for trouble.... BUT if you dont mind trouble then thats your buisness!


#7 Guest_Desconosi_*

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 04:39 PM

What if you already have troubles. Manipulating what you have to do bad does it really matter anymore? I believe in a kind of karma. All will even out just not in one person. One person can do a lot of harm and still have it good and visa versa someone can do a lot of good and still have it bad. It evens out in us all...some get it more than others. So no point to worry if you do something bad (not in this world anyways) cause it might not come back.

#8 LDG

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 04:06 AM

My idea of what karma stands for has faded through the years. There are plenty of good people out there who get bad things done to them, i believe its free will not karma. In my recent studies i have come to understand it is harder to balance out then one may think.

I dont think balance is achieved that easily. You have to attain that balance in yourself such as meditation and other workings. IMO it doesnt just do it on its own, energy has to be moved and manupliated. There are some things that can even out such as objects charged with energies from you or elements, but within yourself without any work on your own, you cannot just balance out.


#9 spider*lily

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:36 PM

I sometimes wonder about the karmic law (which I do personally believe in) but if I throw a hex at someone for something really unforgiving they've done to me then I figure I am returning their karma. Or excellerating it.

#10 Michele

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:53 PM

I am by nature one of those ditzy, happy, people lol. So I bind and/or reflect prior to hexing. This is just me, though. I had cursed someone, and their family, including children, were incredibly hurt by what happened to the person. For me, and for me only, I find it very hard to inflect extreme misfortune on the guilty without effecting the innocent. But I definitely recognize the right of everyone to act as they see fit, and I also retain that same right for myself. But perhaps it is also simply my definition of curse, which is extreme and final unless I undo it. Most of the 'annoying' people who are merely that - obnoxious annoyances - end up cursing themselves. They live their life in rage and outrage, and it effects every relationship they are involved in; so, for the mere annoying-but-not-threatening, I leave them to their own demise rather than waste my time getting mixed up in their problems. But this is just me and the way that makes me happy, and I tend to do whatever makes me happy (so very Luciferian of me, lol)...

M


#11 Penny on the Ground

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 02:29 PM

The important things is to cast with your brain. I know that may seem a contradiction when I say you should just feel and be guided by the earth around you but like any craft or process, you have to put some thought behind it too.

From what I gather, the threefold law/harm none is regarded as a Wiccan practice by most here. That's the way it has always been within my tradition but Nan still cautioned us to use our smarts.

It's usually a bad idea to cast in the heat of the moment. Like you say words that you can't take back...you can always produce results that you can't take back. It's not about karma so much as being *sure* that you are doing what you really want to do.

Hexing the neighbour over a dispute might seem like a good idea in the moment, but what if she comes around the next day and apologises? You better be sure that you have the skill to lift the hex otherwise you have caused misery to someone who didn't really deserve it.

Power can be both nurturing and harmful depending on whose hands it is. It's up to the individual not to abuse it and to always make sure that they cast with the best and fairest intentions. Not because it may come back on you (because that concept is just as selfish as casting love spells and hexes) but because who really wants to be the kind of person who spreads misery and misfortune without it being warranted?

And you might do a love spell to get your ex back but is it really good for you to have someone who can't appreciate you without a little manipulation? Is that what you deserve?

Power is like sword. You have to have knowledge and experience of how to properly wield it or chances are you may cut yourself. It's best to start with a few short strokes before you move onto the complex kung fu moves :embarrased:

At the moment of casting, you are the one connected to the earth...you are the link, so it has to always be about you. Even healing spells or protections spells cast for others have to have *your* intent behind it.

What is good for me? Do I really want this? Do I know how to handle this? Will I be able to fix it if it goes wrong? These are questions that everybody should ask themselves no matter what kind of working they do.

And with something as destructive as cursing or hexing, we were always advised to ask; is this my last resort or only option?


#12 Abraxia Thalgus

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:36 PM

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about karma. Many people think it's a nice balancing beam giving out tit for tat in the one life time. If you look into the system of karma it's actually quite complicated and people don't get their books balanced in this life. Everything you do is weighed up and affects the outcome of your next life. Do repeated bad shit and you come back several rungs down the soul-evolutionary scale, as a rat or dung beetle, say. Do bad shit, but then later on do heaps of good stuff for the right reason - in the same life - and you won't slip down so far, but will still be down a couple of rungs. It's considerably longer lived than the couple of months or years most people think in terms of.

When someone does something wrong and they get caught out for it, go to jail or what have you, that's not karma balancing the books. That's simply cause and effect in this life. Karma is not about revenge or getting even, it's only about the soul's journey through many life times - if you believe in reincarnation.

Michele, I see family members getting hurt as a consequence of that person's actions, not of the person who through the hex. Basically, if they didn't do stuff that caused the hex to be throuwn in the first place, then the family wouldn't get hurt - end of story.

...you need a lot of courage in this life, to make some of the choices you have to make. That's natural. I mean, you can't sit back like an amoeba and just regenerate yourself. You've got to be an exciting, dynamic human being, and there are choices you're going to make that's going to cause you some difficulty, and if it requires some courage on your part, then do it. - Charles Perkins, Arunta Elder, 1998

#13 Whiterose

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:52 PM

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about karma. Many people think it's a nice balancing beam giving out tit for tat in the one life time. If you look into the system of karma it's actually quite complicated and people don't get their books balanced in this life. Everything you do is weighed up and affects the outcome of your next life. Do repeated bad shit and you come back several rungs down the soul-evolutionary scale, as a rat or dung beetle, say. Do bad shit, but then later on do heaps of good stuff for the right reason - in the same life - and you won't slip down so far, but will still be down a couple of rungs. It's considerably longer lived than the couple of months or years most people think in terms of.

When someone does something wrong and they get caught out for it, go to jail or what have you, that's not karma balancing the books. That's simply cause and effect in this life. Karma is not about revenge or getting even, it's only about the soul's journey through many life times - if you believe in reincarnation.

Michele, I see family members getting hurt as a consequence of that person's actions, not of the person who through the hex. Basically, if they didn't do stuff that caused the hex to be throuwn in the first place, then the family wouldn't get hurt - end of story.


I think that can explain somethings that happen but not all. If you throw a hex at someone that say...keeps them from getting a job, or to get caught and go to jail, these things if they come to pass will have a direct effect on someone's family. I think it is a little of both because every action starts a ripple that causes other actions and events. I don't think it is that cut and dry.


On another note, who is to say that if you hex this person, family will get hurt? What if you hex the person and it prevents harm (say hexing a child molester) Isn't that one of the main reasons witches hex? It is not just to get even personally, it is to even the playing feild for those who have not the power to. If you have the power to balance a wrong doing, why not use it? Are we not witches? If karma is real then surely it/he/she/neither will take this into account?


#14 Abraxia Thalgus

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:07 PM

The bit about hexing someone and family getting hurt was a comment to Michele's earlier post where she said she did hex someone and it caused the family of the person to be hurt.

If I hex someone and their family are hurt because of it, say they go to jail and aren't there to financially support them, then I don't see that as my fault or my having caused harm. I don't hex people who haven't hurt me first. I see the fall out as part of the cause and effect of their actions, not mine.

...you need a lot of courage in this life, to make some of the choices you have to make. That's natural. I mean, you can't sit back like an amoeba and just regenerate yourself. You've got to be an exciting, dynamic human being, and there are choices you're going to make that's going to cause you some difficulty, and if it requires some courage on your part, then do it. - Charles Perkins, Arunta Elder, 1998

#15 Whiterose

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:15 PM

The bit about hexing someone and family getting hurt was a comment to Michele's earlier post where she said she did hex someone and it caused the family of the person to be hurt.


If I hex someone and their family are hurt because of it, say they go to jail and aren't there to financially support them, then I don't see that as my fault or my having caused harm. I don't hex people who haven't hurt me first. I see the fall out as part of the cause and effect of their actions, not mine.


I realise you were not the one to bring this up and my response was directed to anyone/everyone as it was general and that is the reason I separated it from the first part. Sorry if it felt like an attack. It was not meant to be. :sweat:

I can understand how you see it that way, but I still believe it is not that cut and dry. If I take action, I take responsibility. My actions coupled with the actions of this person brought about the end result. All I am saying is everything is connected, its all ripples and if I took action...my action was a ripple that created another and therefore I am responsible for my ripple. My ripple could have a good consequence or a bad one.


#16 Michele

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:20 PM

Michele, I see family members getting hurt as a consequence of that person's actions, not of the person who through the hex. Basically, if they didn't do stuff that caused the hex to be throuwn in the first place, then the family wouldn't get hurt - end of story.


Yes, and in that you are correct. But applying it to myself, I would hate to see my son get hurt becuase of some assholic thing I did. It is probably just me, but I hate hurting other people. Not as in I feel guilty, for guilt is usually a response to the fact that one wanted to do the "bad" thing and they feel guilty for having wanted to, not for having done it (i.e. if I step on the cat by mistake I feel bad but not guilty, if I kicked the cat on purpose I'd fell very guilty about it). But when I hurt other people I just feel bad for them and the way I made them feel, so unless under direct threat I don't do it. You know, in retrospect, I wonder if I don't need to toughen up a little in regards to being less nice sometimes. There is no need for me to take on what another person is feeling simply becuase it is related to me, whether it is mundanely becuase I tell them no, or whether it is becuase I magically protected myself from them.

M


#17 Abraxia Thalgus

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:28 PM

Whiterose, I didn't feel attacked, just that maybe I needed to rephrase what I was sayong :) I can have a way of not getting across what I actually mean sometimes. As for it not being cut and dried, I day say you are right. I'm still exploring what this all means to me. I just tend to have a black and white view of justice is all. :)
...you need a lot of courage in this life, to make some of the choices you have to make. That's natural. I mean, you can't sit back like an amoeba and just regenerate yourself. You've got to be an exciting, dynamic human being, and there are choices you're going to make that's going to cause you some difficulty, and if it requires some courage on your part, then do it. - Charles Perkins, Arunta Elder, 1998

#18 Nineheart

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:29 PM

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about karma. Many people think it's a nice balancing beam giving out tit for tat in the one life time. If you look into the system of karma it's actually quite complicated and people don't get their books balanced in this life. Everything you do is weighed up and affects the outcome of your next life. Do repeated bad shit and you come back several rungs down the soul-evolutionary scale, as a rat or dung beetle, say. Do bad shit, but then later on do heaps of good stuff for the right reason - in the same life - and you won't slip down so far, but will still be down a couple of rungs. It's considerably longer lived than the couple of months or years most people think in terms of.

When someone does something wrong and they get caught out for it, go to jail or what have you, that's not karma balancing the books. That's simply cause and effect in this life. Karma is not about revenge or getting even, it's only about the soul's journey through many life times - if you believe in reincarnation.


I probably belong to the "misunderstanding" group of karma, but to me karma is just "what goes around, comes around"; not necessarily the three-fold law of wiccans, but doing something "positive" results in positive energy and attracting positive things such as doing "negative" things will attract bad energy and making you susceptible to bad entities. Also I feel that karma has nothing to do with the the transition of the soul and primarily effects present and future actions*. Bad "karma" may affect any spells I cast or how spirits interact with me, but when concerning reincarnation (which I wholeheartedly believe in) it has nothing to do with it. I feel when a soul reincarnates it has the potential to become anything it wants to be and that it is forever immortal (no ascending or become one with god etc).

*Recently I read that Hindus believe in karma and that it can affect the soul at any time, in the present, in the future and in reincarnations. I don't have any sources for this statement, but I'm not out to convince anyone, it is purely my belief that karma has nothing to do with reincarnation of the soul. That being said, the "karma" I'm talking about is completely different than the traditional, eastern meaning; just as the word "meditation" is applied to many different practices.


I think that can explain somethings that happen but not all. If you throw a hex at someone that say...keeps them from getting a job, or to get caught and go to jail, these things if they come to pass will have a direct effect on someone's family. I think it is a little of both because every action starts a ripple that causes other actions and events. I don't think it is that cut and dry.

On another note, who is to say that if you hex this person, family will get hurt? What if you hex the person and it prevents harm (say hexing a child molester) Isn't that one of the main reasons witches hex? It is not just to get even personally, it is to even the playing feild for those who have not the power to. If you have the power to balance a wrong doing, why not use it? Are we not witches? If karma is real then surely it/he/she/neither will take this into account?

I can understand how you see it that way, but I still believe it is not that cut and dry. If I take action, I take responsibility. My actions coupled with the actions of this person brought about the end result. All I am saying is everything is connected, its all ripples and if I took action...my action was a ripple that created another and therefore I am responsible for my ripple. My ripple could have a good consequence or a bad one.


I couldn't agree more! Whatever I do, I take full responsibility for it, whether I intentionally / unintentionally or directly / indirectly caused something. "I protect those who cannot protect themselves and help those who seek to help themselves." is the phrase I live by. Although I haven't done any spells for someone else (apart from protecting my family) I am completely open to lending my powers to someone if I believe they are deserving of them and / or offer me something in exchange. However I would not do such things without serious consideration first.

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#19 Nineheart

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:36 PM

Yes, and in that you are correct. But applying it to myself, I would hate to see my son get hurt becuase of some assholic thing I did. It is probably just me, but I hate hurting other people. Not as in I feel guilty, for guilt is usually a response to the fact that one wanted to do the "bad" thing and they feel guilty for having wanted to, not for having done it (i.e. if I step on the cat by mistake I feel bad but not guilty, if I kicked the cat on purpose I'd fell very guilty about it). But when I hurt other people I just feel bad for them and the way I made them feel, so unless under direct threat I don't do it. You know, in retrospect, I wonder if I don't need to toughen up a little in regards to being less nice sometimes. There is no need for me to take on what another person is feeling simply becuase it is related to me, whether it is mundanely becuase I tell them no, or whether it is becuase I magically protected myself from them.

M


I have no qualms about hurting others; I believe that humans are capable of rational thought and so should accept the consequences even if they didn't think of them. I'm quite self-contradictory, I can't stand the abuse of animals and nature but feel quite indifferently about human suffering if they had control over it. For example if someone did something illegal I wouldn't blink an eye about using witchcraft to retaliate, whereas if someone was raped then I wouldn't hex them even if they were partly responsible (giving mixed signals or getting cold feet etc), similarly for people who are not at fault for their current situation. I'm quite antagonistic with people; if I was to hex someone I would do it so that they become a monster rather than a saint. However my disclaimer is that I'm a pacifist and would not resort to these measures unless they were the only choice available.

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#20 Jevne

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:42 PM

I couldn't agree more! Whatever I do, I take full responsibility for it, whether I intentionally / unintentionally or directly / indirectly caused something. "I protect those who cannot protect themselves and help those who seek to help themselves." is the phrase I live by. Although I haven't done any spells for someone else (apart from protecting my family) I am completely open to lending my powers to someone if I believe they are deserving of them and / or offer me something in exchange. However I would not do such things without serious consideration first.


Nineheart,

Responsibility for my words, thoughts and actions is a basic tenet of my path, so what you say resonates strongly with me. I cast spells on people all the time, though I am not inclined to hurt them. As an empath, that would be counterproductive, especially if I had to work with or spend time with that person regularly. I do a lot of re-direction and mis-direction, though; sometimes a gentle push, while other times a big shove. I don't have time to try to control the lives of everyone around me, but I have no problem getting them out of my way.

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