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Ancestral Memory


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#21 Marabet

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:18 PM

I do believe in ancestral memory though I am not very informed on the subject itself. I would like to get in touch with this more both intellectually and in practice. I also agree with the concept that not all ancestors are blood related.

Not all of my ancestors are DNA ones, and I have found the simplest and most effective way for me to connect to their clan-mind was to use what I call a "witch's rosary" to count off an invocation chant of contact repetedly, outside, and also to approach the intersection of where one adopts non-DNA memory. It is something I now do every morning around sunrise. I also find the WR has built up much stored energy and connection over time of use (I also use it in some spell work - is a great way for counting off without having to concentrate on the actual counting) and I can actually use it as a physical trigger now.

M


Thanks for this, M.

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#22 Jevne

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:45 PM

This brings to mind something I read once, and the actual wording eludes me right now, but it was along the lines of the power/'knowing never goes, but it may remain hidden for generations, yet the signs are there for those with eyes to see them and ears to hear them. . . . (gee I'm waxing poetical this morning, lol)


I am familiar with this concept. At the very least, it can explain why a person can feel drawn to the Craft, even when there is no known previous family interest in the subject.

J

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#23 Jevne

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:52 PM

What are your thoughts on the idea of Ancestral Memories? Do you believe that we may have ingrained consciousness of the happenings of the ancestors of our blood? A core consciousness that connects all of the clan and members of the community? I have worked with my ancestors for some time know and I am only now becoming aware of this trend. Has anyone else experienced this notion?

My mother told me once when I was a wee boy that all of our blood are connected by our memories...now I am beginning to understand what she meant. :)


Yes, I am very aware of this, as I work closely with my ancestors. I do believe in ingrained, clan consciousness, and personally view this concept as directly related to beliefs in reincarnation and consider it a viable explanation for experiences involving past life regression.

J

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#24 Michele

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:07 PM

Yes, I am very aware of this, as I work closely with my ancestors. I do believe in ingrained, clan consciousness, and personally view this concept as directly related to beliefs in reincarnation and consider it a viable explanation for experiences involving past life regression.

J



Oh - I was thinking on that over the last while - if those past-life memories and even "deja vu" moments are actually a tapping into an ancestral memory, and if, in fact, the very idea of reincarnation could be via memory (like my ancestor's memorie are living on through me, so technicaly "reincarnated" through me). That does then bring on the question of actual consciousnes after death or whether one simply becomes another vegi in the communal salad bowl of memory (no disrespect to the ancestors meant in wording it that way, lol). Or perhaps it could be both as there may well be more than one aspect of the "soul" that lives on (something I tend to lean towards)...

M

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#25 CelticGypsy

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:01 AM

I pose this for discussion in line with Ancestral Memory. Those of my Peers here ( in the USA ) come from the generations of the old " sod " where ever their ancestor put down roots and grew a family line. Some Peers here, like myself have ancestors that came to the sod here in the USA quite young in their lives. We have Peers here who was born over in the "old sod " and at a young age migrated to the USA. " new sod ".

I pose, an Ancestor is an Ancestor, whether blood or not, it is a cultural growing of idea's stemming from the culture of the land and what the land had to offer. Within those idea's form thought processess. Those thought processess develope character, ethics, standards, mannerisms.

As an example, when the Irish Father who farmed his plot of land, the expectation of the family unit was that the Oldest son, inherited that farm, and then prolonged the family tie to that land. That became tradition. It was expected. If there were more than one son, the one son that did not inherit the farm, was expected to learn a trade or a vocation. The females were expected just to tend house. Because those expectations were so ingrained into the family unit, the tradition was formed. Those old thought processess mixed with experiance gave birth to the ancestorial thought that set in motion the basic nature of that tradition. A tradition is a building block per-ce, each family unit with ties by blood or by marriage conformed to the character of the first base family, the Elders and the culture they provided to the community.

I see this as prior to the Industrial Age, when man and family tended the spirit of the Land, and then for what ever reason, climate, famine, or just that wonderlust, the tradition set by the Elders, was changed. Not necessarilly by the character formed, but because of shear neccessity.
There are still strong family ties, in communities left, but as economics and situations came into place, family members chose to brave it in a new world, yet took with them, their memories and traditions, to build upon the " new Sod ".

I lean to the belief that those old Elder ancestors still have ingrained belief and characteristics, even in the newer generations, through the memories of the family thread.

Regards,
Gypsy

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#26 rixie

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:14 AM

When I was about 15 I had a 'dream' that at the time I didn't have a word for - but I believe it was actually sort of an ancestral memory type thing... it didn't feel like a dream at all, it felt like remembering.

I could feel the heavy weight of old fashioned skirts and boots. I could actually hear and feel the thud of my boots on wood - either a boat or pier I assume as I was looking out over the water and some landscape - huge evergreens and gray rocks.. It was a gray, cold day, too. It's quite vivid.

Interestingly enough, I learned later on that my family came to the America's from England via Novia Scotia. For some reason that seems significant to that experience, but I can't explain why. Maybe it's part of a memory. :) - or I could be nuts. lol

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#27 Jevne

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:50 AM

An additional perspective on the subject . . .

Ancestral Memory

Thought it might be of some interest.

Jevne

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#28 Jevne

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 01:30 AM

That does then bring on the question of actual consciousnes after death or whether one simply becomes another vegi in the communal salad bowl of memory (no disrespect to the ancestors meant in wording it that way, lol). Or perhaps it could be both as there may well be more than one aspect of the "soul" that lives on (something I tend to lean towards)...

M


One can never be certain, until after it is too late, but some really smart person said the following . . .

"They are not necessarily anyone you knew whilst they were alive. You are accessing their memories. I have often wondered if past life recall is just a strong ancestral memory one picks up on."

So, for the sake of discussion, let's play with an idea. I have mentioned my 'soul soup' theory. When someone dies the composition of their soul, including their individual and cultural (clan) memories, both inherited and acquired over a life-time, are poured back into the collective bowl of soul soup, from which all new souls are ladled.

If you boil a whole chicken, it retains its shape for a period of time, before finally breaking down into bits of meat and bone. Perhaps, for a period of time, a person's soul or spirit (?) also retains a bit of cohesion, as in does not dissipate. I can't say for certain what determines the rate of dissipation, although I suspect that a strong connection to a person, object, or place, can influence the rate. (Which explains some ancient hauntings.)

I do know that I can more easily and directly interact with the spirits of my 'beloved dead', who died within the last 150 years. Before that, the connection is not as defined. The connection becomes a flash of feeling or cognition of a indeterminant time or place versus recognition of an actual person. My theory is that even though the person's soul or spirit no longer exists as a whole, their individual memories are still at least partially accessible, not only by me, but by anyone capable of connecting to the collective current.

Just rambling again,
Jevne

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#29 Aloe

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:22 AM

An additional perspective on the subject . . .

Ancestral Memory

Thought it might be of some interest.

Jevne


That was interesting J. What he describes reminds me of some experiences I have had with memories like this, that happen suddenly and unbidden.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#30 Michele

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:11 AM

I know that some believe that people who die yet refuse to let go become the more "restless" dead - they can be held to this plane either by their own refusal to pass on or by people who cared too much to let them go and it is also believed that one can't simply tell them to "go to the light" or whatever rose-coloured wishful thinking there is. I have also heard of some who believe that as the body decayed in the land and fed the land (tree, plant, grass, soil, earthworm, etc.) the ancestor actually BECAME the land itself. Therefore their connection to their land of place was also considered to be an anecstral connection. Pre-industrialization this was probably a more common thought. Some (like a sailor) who believed this would carry a piece of the family tree with them in the belief that should something untoward happen, with the spirit of the family tree they would always "find their way home".

I also konw that part of my desire to believe that part of the consciousness survives is due to my strong connection with my son and a desire to always be able to go to him should he need me. Interestingly enough my mother gave me an old wooden doorstop and told me to hang on to it and when she croaks (her word, not mine, lol) I can use it and she'll know "she has something to do" but she wouldn't discuss it more.

Re CG's old sod/new sod (we're all a bunch of sods, lol) as the world changed it became "smaller" once man could fly and even with ship travel. So I thinnk traditions changed along with the industrialized nature of the world, introductions to new tradition and ned beliefs that would have only been stories from a visiting traveler before. I think this does not negate one's connection to ancestors or ancestral land but the only thing I base that on is I was wonering about it and drove the the seaside to watch the sunrise and was standing at the "between" place of sea and shore very deep in thought and it very strongly came into my mind the saying "Does not the same sea that touches your feet also touch the English shore?" And it does, albeit it's a bit of a long swim, but it does. Often with those sorts of pop-ins, especially if I have strong emotional connections to the question, it is always hard to decide how much is truth and how much is desire, lol. But I liked that answer so I kept it :-)

I also believe that if one oathes to a divinity one also adopts those ancestors. Again obsessing on my child, lol, that made me wonder what then happens to one's relationship with one's own ancestors - especially if they did not follow that specific tradition. I did some rune work on it and asked re the above what happens to blood ancestors and I pulled othala an dagaz which in my specific way of working with the runes translates as "tribal mind, bonding, clan, hereditary state of the physical and spiritual self" and "transcendance of polarities and of individual and collective definition, syncronicity, cessation of opposition." So together I read the legend as the seeing of ancestors and the collective ancestral mind as not this or that - a cessation of this opposition, so I think that although it is beyond my literal/analytical understanding that somehow the two combine. The polarities of DNA v. adoption are overcome. But again, that was also my desired answer, lol!!!

M

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#31 Michele

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:29 AM

You know how in some traditions a witch cannot die without "passing on the power." I have begun to wonder if "cannot" is not to be defined as "if you don't pass it on you'll live forever" but more that it is a very big taboo for the witch to die without passing it on. Because memory is power, and it is also life. In some very ancestral-associated traditions the ancestors are considered to live on via the memory of the physically-living members of the clan/tradition. And if they consider their god an ancestor of sorts, as some do, then to die without passing on the power/memory is to actually allow the ancestors and the god to be lost - to die out in this world, so-to-speak. Just something I wonder about sometimes...

M

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#32 Aloe

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:34 AM

I have also heard of some who believe that as the body decayed in the land and fed the land (tree, plant, grass, soil, earthworm, etc.) the ancestor actually BECAME the land itself. Therefore their connection to their land of place was also considered to be an anecstral connection. Pre-industrialization this was probably a more common thought.


That way of thinking is not as long gone everywhere as some might think.... Many of my family still insist on being buried in pine boxes. Due to some regulations that came and went some of our people were buried in less 'natural' graves, but the laws are being changed again and wills have been changed back to the original 'pine box' mandates of some of our elders. Anywhoo, my point was that "becoming the land" is still the way of thinking of much of my family, as most of this branch have been buried in the same small country grave yard out in the hills for the last 200+ years. Their essence is literally infused into that earth. Interestingly, this cemetery also had a 'meeting house' on the grounds, and when my Great Grandma and Grandpa were dating they played music and sang in a bluegrass band there as the entertainment for rallies held to sell war bonds during World War II, which the rest of the family and community would attend. So this particular plot of ground holds many memories of my family living and dead, and that can be felt so strongly when we visit there to care for the tombstones and bring offerings.

I'll end the rambling now lol.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#33 Shadow Touch

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 01:05 PM

Not all of my ancestors are DNA ones, and I have found the simplest and most effective way for me to connect to their clan-mind was to use what I call a "witch's rosary" to count off an invocation chant of contact repetedly, outside, and also to approach the intersection of where one adopts non-DNA memory. It is something I now do every morning around sunrise.
M


Yes, I believe there is also a spiritual lineage as well as biological one. Some people may look at this as "past life connection" of some sort.


You know how in some traditions a witch cannot die without "passing on the power." I have begun to wonder if "cannot" is not to be defined as "if you don't pass it on you'll live forever" but more that it is a very big taboo for the witch to die without passing it on. Because memory is power, and it is also life. In some very ancestral-associated traditions the ancestors are considered to live on via the memory of the physically-living members of the clan/tradition. And if they consider their god an ancestor of sorts, as some do, then to die without passing on the power/memory is to actually allow the ancestors and the god to be lost - to die out in this world, so-to-speak. Just something I wonder about sometimes...

M


You touch on something very interesting here. There's a school of thought that the ancestors have a vested interest in our survival so that they survive. A family line can die out, and what happens then to all that came become? One of my old teachers held that bloodlines are beacons for the soul, and one can return to them if desired. She believed that a witch becomes more powerful in each life if the soul remains in a bloodline of witches. But she also taught that the soul can chose not to remain tied to one, and it can go on to experience many. I think this may be where the idea of a spiritual lineage comes in. I've always had a fascination for ancient Egypt and feel a strong connection, but have no blood ties of which I am aware.

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#34 Aloe

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 03:10 PM

I do know that I can more easily and directly interact with the spirits of my 'beloved dead', who died within the last 150 years. Before that, the connection is not as defined. The connection becomes a flash of feeling or cognition of a indeterminant time or place versus recognition of an actual person. My theory is that even though the person's soul or spirit no longer exists as a whole, their individual memories are still at least partially accessible, not only by me, but by anyone capable of connecting to the collective current.


I was just talking to a dear friend the other day about the "ancient dead" and their accessibility, and what might keep some of those ancient dead souls attached to the living and more... intact (for lack of a better description) for a longer period of time than others. One thing I wondered about was Catholic saints. The Catholic church elevates certain dead to the status of saints, and once they do this the living are continually venerating, calling upon, and feeding that soul, and I can see where this might keep those dead more "intact" and accessible to the living for communication..

I've never worked with any saints, just something I've been curious about.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#35 CelticGypsy

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:17 PM

I was just talking to a dear friend the other day about the "ancient dead" and their accessibility, and what might keep some of those ancient dead souls attached to the living and more... intact (for lack of a better description) for a longer period of time than others. One thing I wondered about was Catholic saints. The Catholic church elevates certain dead to the status of saints, and once they do this the living are continually venerating, calling upon, and feeding that soul, and I can see where this might keep those dead more "intact" and accessible to the living for communication..

I've never worked with any saints, just something I've been curious about.


I can fully understand this as being a former Catholic, Aloe. With saints catholics were offered the back door so to speak to the heavenly realms, depending on how good you are in your works on the earth. Catholics are a oddity to me, as their dogma says one thing, yet gives leeway to another. I also agree that when a common person in life is lifted and exaulted into a sainthood, the rest of common man, joins in and petitions this saint, over and over again. Some saints have jobs or tasks credited to them. Like Christopher, the patron saint of travel. Jude, the saint of hopeless causes. The list will stretch all the way to the U.K. and back again. Also, pagans who walked the earth at one time, got this elevation to saints/ and or gods, ie Brigid.

It it a curious emotion that drives a human to invoke the saints, divinities, god/dessess, and I don't find that far fetched to the Witch, who knows within their selves, their wholeness as a Witch. It is the truth, based on what the Witch knows and experianced for themselves that garners any outcome that the Witch invokes, in my opinion. It makes a Witch no less a Witch if they invoke or petition help or knowledge from the other worlds/ realms. I remind myself, that a Witch is not what she/he does, a Witch is what he/ she is. Again, just my thoughts and opinions.

xo
Gypsy

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#36 Aloe

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:25 PM

I can fully understand this as being a former Catholic, Aloe. With saints catholics were offered the back door so to speak to the heavenly realms, depending on how good you are in your works on the earth. Catholics are a oddity to me, as their dogma says one thing, yet gives leeway to another. I also agree that when a common person in life is lifted and exaulted into a sainthood, the rest of common man, joins in and petitions this saint, over and over again. Some saints have jobs or tasks credited to them. Like Christopher, the patron saint of travel. Jude, the saint of hopeless causes. The list will stretch all the way to the U.K. and back again. Also, pagans who walked the earth at one time, got this elevation to saints/ and or gods, ie Brigid.

It it a curious emotion that drives a human to invoke the saints, divinities, god/dessess, and I don't find that far fetched to the Witch, who knows within their selves, their wholeness as a Witch. It is the truth, based on what the Witch knows and experianced for themselves that garners any outcome that the Witch invokes, in my opinion. It makes a Witch no less a Witch if they invoke or petition help or knowledge from the other worlds/ realms. I remind myself, that a Witch is not what she/he does, a Witch is what he/ she is. Again, just my thoughts and opinions.

xo
Gypsy


I agree with you. ;)

I was thinking more along the lines though of how the adoration, veneration, offerings, pilgrimages to associated places, and remembrance in general of these people elevated to saint level by generations of people who are adhering to or making use of the catholic designation of these people as saints, might keep those souls from breaking down like the simmering chicken J offered in her example.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#37 CelticGypsy

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 06:22 PM

I agree with you. ;)

I was thinking more along the lines though of how the adoration, veneration, offerings, pilgrimages to associated places, and remembrance in general of these people elevated to saint level by generations of people who are adhering to or making use of the catholic designation of these people as saints, might keep those souls from breaking down like the simmering chicken J offered in her example.



Yes I agree with you also, all that supplication and such, but personally I'd rather go and connect with this type of pilgrimage ::)

http://www.tradition...__1#entry120130

and view this site, rather than hope to count on an appearance from the Lady of Fatima. lol !

Not only would I be able to see this, smell, touch and hearing would also benefit my inner Witch, in a connecting sort of way.

I believe that Witchs are very sensory. :wink: Outside and inside.

Regards,
Gypsy

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#38 Aloe

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 06:48 PM

Yes I agree with you also, all that supplication and such, but personally I'd rather go and connect with this type of pilgrimage ::)

http://www.tradition...__1#entry120130

and view this site, rather than hope to count on an appearance from the Lady of Fatima. lol !

Not only would I be able to see this, smell, touch and hearing would also benefit my inner Witch, in a connecting sort of way.

I believe that Witchs are very sensory. :wink: Outside and inside.

Regards,
Gypsy


Well you know I'm a practical witch who's not going to sit around hoping for the appearance of some religious figure to help me out LOL, but I do have a valid reason that has nothing to do with the associated religion for wondering if the attention of the living given to the dead that are elevated to 'sainthood' by members of an organization as large as the catholic church would keep them attached to the living and accessible throughout centuries. Many saints had families, and are ancestors of people living now... :)

I'd still like to hear more from anyone who has thoughts on it.

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"The people who live in the Ozark country of Missouri and Arkansas were, until very recently, the most deliberately unprogressive people in the United States. Descended from pioneers who came West from the Southern Appalachians at the beginning of the nineteenth century, they made little contact with the outer world for more than a hundred years. They seem like foreigners to the average urban American, but nearly all of them come of British stock, and many families have lived in America since colonial days. Their material heirlooms are few, but like all isolated illiterates they have clung to the old songs and obsolete sayings and outworn customs of their ancestors." Ozark Magic and Folklore

#39 sarasuperid

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 06:53 PM

I think Saints are a type of ancestor. And that they definitely stay around longer for their descendants both spiritually descendant, and those who are physically descendants. We have discussed above how witch ancestors may not be related to us, but become a part of our witch craft by our contact with them through the veil.

Relating to Saints is very similar, and there are established ways of relating to them, windows to heaven (aka ikons/icons). A photograph of an ancestor could be made into a similar portal, and you could visit your ancestors through them if you consecrated them in a similar manner (but a more witchy manner) to how ikons are blessed.

A friend of mine's relative was a nun and has been beatified and is through the last steps before becoming sainted. Of course my friend follows this process with excitement, this is her great (several greats) aunt. Witnessing this process in action, makes me realize how related sainthood is to ancestor workings. How are saints sainted? Do their relatives go to bat for them long after their death, well in my friends case, yes.

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#40 Autumn Moon

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:04 AM

Yes, I am very aware of this, as I work closely with my ancestors. I do believe in ingrained, clan consciousness, and personally view this concept as directly related to beliefs in reincarnation and consider it a viable explanation for experiences involving past life regression.

J


This is my belief as well. It could be one to the explanations for children who are a genius at something, but who have hardly had any education/training in it, for example, a savant pianist who pretty much born with those abilities.

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