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#1 Michele

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:50 AM

I have a great interest in the CoTC and the Cultis Sabatti -

How many share this interest? Does any one relate these two to Luciferian Gnosis... the Peacock Angel, Melek-Taus, Azazel.... etc? Does anyone find the CoTC and the CS to have the same roots? If yes, how do you, personally, correlate Illumination with the darker aspects of the CS, like working with Inccubis and Succubis (sp) and such? Does anyone see some of the CS workings as specifically geared to "shock" one out of cultural conditioings?
I know very little of the CoTC other than the Cochrane letters.. do you think the CoTC and the CS share the same path (or at least the same direction)?
Taking the root of the CS as the Yezdi (can't spell it)-Kurdish beliefs, do you think Cochrane was on to the same thing, or did he get to the Watchers a different way? What is the general feeling of the bible having these stories "hidden" within it's mythology? How do you feel Christian Gnosis correlates/contrasts with Luciferian Gnosis?
(Okay, no more wine for me tonight... lol)

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#2 AnjelWolf

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:34 PM

I have a great interest in the CoTC and the Cultis Sabatti -

How many share this interest? Does any one relate these two to Luciferian Gnosis... the Peacock Angel, Melek-Taus, Azazel.... etc? Does anyone find the CoTC and the CS to have the same roots? If yes, how do you, personally, correlate Illumination with the darker aspects of the CS, like working with Inccubis and Succubis (sp) and such? Does anyone see some of the CS workings as specifically geared to "shock" one out of cultural conditioings?
I know very little of the CoTC other than the Cochrane letters.. do you think the CoTC and the CS share the same path (or at least the same direction)?
Taking the root of the CS as the Yezdi (can't spell it)-Kurdish beliefs, do you think Cochrane was on to the same thing, or did he get to the Watchers a different way? What is the general feeling of the bible having these stories "hidden" within it's mythology? How do you feel Christian Gnosis correlates/contrasts with Luciferian Gnosis?
(Okay, no more wine for me tonight... lol)





No Michele I think this is wonderful! I'm familiar with working with those entities during my rituals and dream works.

I don't know if I would lable the working s specifically as "shocking out of cultural conditioning" but certainly gives the push that is sometimes needed as well.

I find they have some similarities but I don't believe I would say they are on the same path.

BRAVO Post by the way girlie!!!!!! Keep them coming like this!!!!! I'll be following this thread with interest :)

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#3 Michele

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 02:00 AM

Okay - will start a running monologue with myself on this thread, lol...

In the beginning I was not interested in working with angels as it reeked of Christianity. But, what if religions are written the same way as history - by the conquering party?

Who has read Aridia Gospel of the Witches? In it is a tale resembling that of the fallen angels. And if one follows religion back to the cradle of civilization, the Kurds follow the Peacock Angel, who can be traced to Lucifer, the light bringer (light being illumination - the same illumination that the serpent brought to Eve, that Tubal Cain brought to people).

I know many here do not work with gods, but for those who do, what do you think of hte possibility that the bible is either an adulterated or a mis-understood account of what really happened (or more apropos, a deliberate adulteration by the conquering religion)? Was the serpent the fall of mankind, or the one who opened the eyes of mankind and gave mankind the right of choice?

AS for the Azoetia, in part it says "by incorporating the reversal or blasphemy of a belief-structure into his own rites he overthrows its past or potential ability to establish any automatic and conditioned aesthetic response.." this being "not the simple act of rebellion, but rather the precise devaluation of Profane Belief to obtain release from its effects..."
Despite our belief in craft, many have had the judeo-xtian upbringing of our culture and I see this as a way of "shocking" ourselves out of our societial/cultural beliefs..... anyone????

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#4 AnjelWolf

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:20 AM

Okay - will start a running monologue with myself on this thread, lol...

In the beginning I was not interested in working with angels as it reeked of Christianity. But, what if religions are written the same way as history - by the conquering party?

Who has read Aridia Gospel of the Witches? In it is a tale resembling that of the fallen angels. And if one follows religion back to the cradle of civilization, the Kurds follow the Peacock Angel, who can be traced to Lucifer, the light bringer (light being illumination - the same illumination that the serpent brought to Eve, that Tubal Cain brought to people).

I know many here do not work with gods, but for those who do, what do you think of hte possibility that the bible is either an adulterated or a mis-understood account of what really happened (or more apropos, a deliberate adulteration by the conquering religion)? Was the serpent the fall of mankind, or the one who opened the eyes of mankind and gave mankind the right of choice?

AS for the Azoetia, in part it says "by incorporating the reversal or blasphemy of a belief-structure into his own rites he overthrows its past or potential ability to establish any automatic and conditioned aesthetic response.." this being "not the simple act of rebellion, but rather the precise devaluation of Profane Belief to obtain release from its effects..."
Despite our belief in craft, many have had the judeo-xtian upbringing of our culture and I see this as a way of "shocking" ourselves out of our societial/cultural beliefs..... anyone????





Personally, I've always felt that the bible was adulterated in many areas and that should there be factual events within it...it has been turned around to suit the present people during that time frame.

In that serpent segment, I had viewed it was that being an "awakening period" for mankind.

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#5 Grimr

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:51 AM

Hello there, I myself am very interested in this subject as well! I look forward to seeing what others post. Have you read "The Pillars of Tubal Cain" by Nigel Jackson and Michael Howard? Just incase you haven't it covers alot of information on the idea of The Watchers and Lucferian Gnosis in a Traditional Witchcraft setting. :)
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#6 Guest_Lea_*

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 05:41 AM

I know many here do not work with gods, but for those who do, what do you think of hte possibility that the bible is either an adulterated or a mis-understood account of what really happened (or more apropos, a deliberate adulteration by the conquering religion)? Was the serpent the fall of mankind, or the one who opened the eyes of mankind and gave mankind the right of choice?


I don't work with gods.....but, IMO, I had always questioned the bible and did come to the conclusion that it is very adulterated and was used as a tool to control people with "fear"...meaning to make people think that if they did not do what was preached to them, all hell would break loose.....literally...and they would burn in the hell they taught (which I do not believe in). Of course their definition of "fear" was "respect".

As far as the serpent being the fall of mankind, that (IMO) was adulterated also in order to control. I think we have been mis-informed about Lucifer, much like people are mis-informed today. You have the difference in meanings of "Satan" and "Lucifer" (Lucifer meaning light bearer and Satan meaning adversary), which in all the churches I attended in the past, the two were one in the same. Also added to this list of names was "the devil" and there are others, but they are all lumped into one evil entity according to what I was taught....the fallen angel who defied god.

IMO, the bible I think was originally intended to be a historical account of what was experienced back in the day. As time progressed, man reworded it for personal gain and even perhaps to hide the truth from the generations to come.

I will add here that I have found more truth in this forum than I did in my years in the churches.

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#7 Michele

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 12:03 PM

Okay - if it is a mis-conception (whether on purpose by the church or not) that Cain was the son of Eve and Adam, not Eve and the serpent, would that make Lucifer the enlightener and, to an extent, saviour, as A & E were spiritual in the garden of Eden and had to descend into matter before they could evolve by death and rebirth... (hope I am making sense here -)...

Also - do you see a "One" a "The All" and the "lesser gods" as creations of our own doing so we could relate to "It", as "The All" is beyond our ability to fathom? And if yes - then would not all demi-gods be traceable back to the Fallen Angels as the mythos of almost, if not all, regions have had an original beginning in the cradle of civilization?

Do you take the myths as mysteries of understanding a "concrete truth," or just as legends?

And if Diana (inthe Italian myths) created Lucifer out of herself, then are they not, ulitmately one, although not the same - like one is the "other half" or polarity, of the other?

Do you see any similiarities between Ariaia and Jesus and Tubal Cain? A & TC both taught the crafts to the humans, and A & J both taught and ascended. Do you think this is another telling of the same myth, but with different characters, in which case, if all myths are traceable ultimately back to a similar/same core, (like Inanna - descending for three days and then ascending) then are not all mythos and religions following the main "route" back to an evolution that enables one to "re-merge" with the "The All?" And does this then lead us back again to the Fallen Angels, and does this make the Christion’s God, one of the demi-gods created in the Christian’s attempt to define the "The All?"

I suck at rote memorization, so I know I don't have all the myths correct, but I'm good at "abstract ideas", lol, and I keep finding this recurring theme and am trying to trace it back to its source, or, in this case "Source."

Yes - I've read Te Pillars, and found it very interesting in relating so many gods/goddesses back to Lucifer, but found that it really has raised more questions than it has answered, lol......

I work with gods and like working with them, which Iknow is different than how many work; I'm not good at god-hopping. But I am starting to think that maybe one takes an aspect they most relate to, and that it is but an aspect of something bigger, and am starting to wonder if this doesn't all start with the Watchers, or Fallen Angels.... as the ones who first gave us something fathomable to work with... and how much of the story has been convulated and hidden .....

I hope I wrote this in a way that makes sense.... would love to see someone put into words the un-wordable that is floating about in my brain trying to become an idea :-)

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#8 Cairelle

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 07:52 PM

Michele, you may be interested in reading The Book of Enoch - it's considered non-canonical by most Christian churches, but some do consider it canonical still. Specifically, the first of the five sections - Book of the Watchers - is particularly interesting in that it describes the fall of the "Watchers". These were the angels that fathered the Nephilim.

We were discussing this particular topic in my meet-up group yesterday, which is why I thought of you - I knew you'd enjoy the discussion. :thumbsup: It was mentioned that the pagan practice of calling the Quarters may have roots that descend from this particular book. This, in turn, would upset a lot of pagans I think... LOL!

Nice thread...

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#9 The Old Crone

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 08:56 PM

I have spent the better part of 2 years trying to figure it out. Much reading, learning on the astral plane, a "Voice"with much info, as well as Ouija board work etc..And where am I? Same place I started- much confused! LOL! Figure one theory out and it just leads to another. Christians, Hebrews, Sumerians, Canaanites, Babylonians...Satan, Lucifer, Beliel, Sammael, Azazel, Mastema.. Angels, An Endangered Species, gives the lowdown on both sides-I thought this a good read.

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die"

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"

I mean, really, the above is just a contradiction! Who's lieing? Proof is in the pudding!

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#10 Guest_Bran_*

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 11:16 PM

Michele,
Please forgive my tardiness Vis the PM.

It is held within the sabbatic craft that the Fallen Angels are functions inherent within the bone. Now to their purpose, To teach and reveal our own power via the sacred spark and the flame of dark gnosis. The spark may be seen as that from the anvil of TC and it is that which kindles the flame within. Many Luciferians, as do I, practise the raising of the Kundalini (fire serpent) which is allegorical of the fall, stirring and rise of the bright angel being Lucifer. The counterpart of Lucifer in Rabbinical lore is Azazel who was called the Scapegoat and was used to take away the sin of the tribe/people into the desert. Was not the same duty taken by Jesus. Now within the sabbatic cults there is 'The man in black' Sad deity is our friend Baphomet the master of the sabbat. Interestingly if you take the name Baphomet and apply the Atbash substitution cipher to it you get the name Sophia. That name translates to 'wisdom'. So if one thinks that the names of the Fallen, Watchers, Grigori, Hidden Company, Beni-Elohim or Gods differ by the language used to express the name revealed in the conclave of the sabbat we can then work out what they actually do for us. In England I drive a car but in Germany I would drive an Auto, Get my drift ?. The stories are allegoric and lead us to an onto the path of illumination which is the 'Great work'.

I hope this will do for a starter as again its late and bed calls. I am sorry if this is garbled as my brain is telling me to sleep.

Best wishes,
Bran

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#11 Michele

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:38 PM

Michele,
Please forgive my tardiness Vis the PM.

It is held within the sabbatic craft that the Fallen Angels are functions inherent within the bone. Now to their purpose, To teach and reveal our own power via the sacred spark and the flame of dark gnosis. The spark may be seen as that from the anvil of TC and it is that which kindles the flame within. Many Luciferians, as do I, practise the raising of the Kundalini (fire serpent) which is allegorical of the fall, stirring and rise of the bright angel being Lucifer. The counterpart of Lucifer in Rabbinical lore is Azazel who was called the Scapegoat and was used to take away the sin of the tribe/people into the desert. Was not the same duty taken by Jesus. Now within the sabbatic cults there is 'The man in black' Sad deity is our friend Baphomet the master of the sabbat. Interestingly if you take the name Baphomet and apply the Atbash substitution cipher to it you get the name Sophia. That name translates to 'wisdom'. So if one thinks that the names of the Fallen, Watchers, Grigori, Hidden Company, Beni-Elohim or Gods differ by the language used to express the name revealed in the conclave of the sabbat we can then work out what they actually do for us. In England I drive a car but in Germany I would drive an Auto, Get my drift ?. The stories are allegoric and lead us to an onto the path of illumination which is the 'Great work'.

I hope this will do for a starter as again its late and bed calls. I am sorry if this is garbled as my brain is telling me to sleep.

Best wishes,
Bran


Thank you for your reply - I shall wait until later in the week to respond (I am off work for 4 days!!) when I can really think, lol. Allegory is hard for me as I have always been extremely literal as well as analytical, lol. But I am very interested in this train of thought, and will give a (hopefully intelligent) response later in the week when I can give it the time of thought it is worhty of. :-)
Michele

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#12 Michele

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 01:04 AM

Do you use skulls as fetish/familiar houses ? I find I have a higher vibratory interaction with spirit when using such. Would you also view poppets as a form of sigil working.

Best wishes,
Bran


I have not had the pleasure of making one from a skull, but I would thiink as that as it is made of bone (and head) where blood was made (i.e. life) that it would be a much better vessel (especially of one wanted to tap into the spirits of the whole, umm "family" - like the bone makes YOUR blood, but the bone itself is born in that which bore you, and which bore that which bore you); however, I have not had that opportunity. I do have the body of my cat (burried in the yard) and had really hoped to harvest some bones if I can bring myself to dig her up one day.
I was given a goat skull by the mother of one of my son's former girlfriends (who was extremely Chhristian, interestingly enough) and have always wanted to use it as a vessel for the Horned; however, I am as of yet not overly familiar with that One and do not want to do it before the time when it would have the right meaning for me, assuming I decide it is the right thing for me to do with it. So, to date, my fetishes have been of cloth, with bits of the "person" inside.

I am attached to the rue plant, (and my new seeds have just sprouted!) and as I use it a lot and would like to get a better understanding of the plant, have thought of creating a fetsh from the plant matter, although with rue is hard as one does not get big bits of wood from it. I love the smell of rue, and the colour, and I find that when i sit with it and run my fingers over the leaves and caress it, it releases it's smell and greatly clears my mind.

Am also trying my hand at growing a mandrake for carving, and managed to sprout one (just one!), but the little bugger is giving me a bit of a hard time, lol.

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#13 Morgana

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 01:17 AM

I read a story once of a man who advertised a book for sale that he sold as a novel that was full of murder, incest, adultery, rape, porn, etc. Some men ordered the book and it arrived thru the post wrapped in plan brown paper. When the purchaser unwrapped the book, it was the bible. A few men who purchased the book took the seller to court fof false advertising. The judge ruled that the book was described properly and ruled in favor of the defense.

So who is to actually say its fiction or real?

I also believe, whether you work with goddeses or gods, may have many names, but are one. We use the name that works with what that name represents.

But, now I'm going back thru this thread and seeing what else pops into the old brain and see if I can get myself even more confused!!!! :happydance:

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Earth as Body become Me
Air as Life breathe through Me
Fire as Spirit consume Me
Water as Blood flow through Me
Spirit as Guide lead Me

#14 Guest_Bran_*

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 05:48 PM

Michele,
You are indeed very fortunate to have two of the three skulls on my wish-list. I would use the goat skull for rituals of sabbatic workings as it is emblematic of Oz and also Auld Hornie in BTW, The latter may also be represented by the stag. As to the skull of the cat, we all like to call forth that sexual predator within us. Be you straight, gay or bisexual there is that dark pleasure that comes from putting on the mantle of sexuality, hopes and desires. From the Egyptian lore comes the goddess Bastet who is represented as the cat. So when one feels the need to focus on one's sexual huntress aspect then your cat's skull would be an ideal 'Naos' for the feminine sexual spirit to be housed and invoked from.

Best wishes,
Bran

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#15 Grimr

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 07:13 PM

Daniel Schulke and Robert Ansell from Xoanan/Cultus Sabbati are going to be in Seattle for the Esoteric Book Conference...maybe I can ask them some of thee questions during their workshops and book singings.

I think that is one of the great (and frusterating) things about belief and wisdom it always raises more questions then you had before (and usually they become alot more complicated!!)

The bible to me always represented a mix of allegorical stories and a "He said, She Said" kind of message...but I think that within it it cointains also a seed of truth from perhaps the old mystery traditions of that time.
The Watchers, The Fallen Angels, and even Lucifer in his unbasterdised form may have been remnants from these Mystery Traditions.

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#16 AnjelWolf

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 07:38 PM

Daniel Schulke and Robert Ansell from Xoanan/Cultus Sabbati are going to be in Seattle for the Esoteric Book Conference...maybe I can ask them some of thee questions during their workshops and book singings.

I think that is one of the great (and frusterating) things about belief and wisdom it always raises more questions then you had before (and usually they become alot more complicated!!)

The bible to me always represented a mix of allegorical stories and a "He said, She Said" kind of message...but I think that within it it cointains also a seed of truth from perhaps the old mystery traditions of that time.
The Watchers, The Fallen Angels, and even Lucifer in his unbasterdised form may have been remnants from these Mystery Traditions.




Exploring this is a great experience for anyone who is hungry to learn more.

I was watching last night on the Explorer channel where some farmer actually found some lost books of the bible tat pertained to Jesus Christ and how he wasn't this "holy" figure that the modern bible had made him out to be.

It also continued on to say about how Mary Magalene was alot closer to him and there were sections of the bible that (if I remember correctly) she had written as well.

It has always been my personal view here that the bible has been horribly altered to suit the person interpreting at that moment.

I feel that there may be alot more to this whole story than expected.

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#17 demon_blackrose

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:09 PM

Now, this is a thread I find MOST interesting. I think a lot of the problem that people have in understanding things is people tend to be to focused upon the material or literal meaning of things. A lot of the time such works were written in cypher and an understanding of alchemical symbolism is helpful. For indeed, the Luciferian Path is about Becoming (the Great Work).

As far as how I see darkness reconciled with the Path of the Bringer of Enlightenment, to descend into the darkness is as entering the underworld, a common feature in many tales involving initiation. One must "die" to be "reborn". Thus we hear of twice and thrice born sages. Thrice Great Hermes was said to have been thrice born.

There was just to many questions asked so far in this thread for me to remember all of them. But this is more or less my path, though I will not say I'm an Adept upon it or have all the answers.

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#18 Scott

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 12:37 AM

Greetings All,

Weehaw what fun!

You know I remember when I first read my first Sabbati stuff all I could think was: “Yeah .. YEAH … well look yeah if you wanted to make it harder than it is … sure I guess that is suitably saucy but again why all this trouble? …” lol It IS SAUCY though! *BG*

Here are some ideas and thoughts .,..

How many share this interest? Does any one relate these two to Luciferian Gnosis... the Peacock Angel, Melek-Taus, Azazel.... etc? Does anyone find the CoTC and the CS to have the same roots? If yes, how do you, personally, correlate Illumination with the darker aspects of the CS, like working with Inccubis and Succubis (sp) and such? Does anyone see some of the CS workings as specifically geared to "shock" one out of cultural conditioings?

I know very little of the CoTC other than the Cochrane letters.. do you think the CoTC and the CS share the same path (or at least the same direction)?
Taking the root of the CS as the Yezdi (can't spell it)-Kurdish beliefs, do you think Cochrane was on to the same thing, or did he get to the Watchers a different way? What is the general feeling of the bible having these stories "hidden" within it's mythology? How do you feel Christian Gnosis correlates/contrasts with Luciferian Gnosis?


Yes I do on both accounts as that is their primary functions as far as our desires can be seen as their functions …

I think I see direct roots in both organisations but saying that I feel that all witchcraft processes that deal with any form of self knowledge should show the same general forms over and over so - *shrugs* make of that what you will …

I think that the darker aspects really are only so if one feels them assaulting their own position. If that is the case well that which is other is the best mirror in which to see one’s own position … so again I think it should be the case. For me the clue in case of CS is that name .. I was taught straightforwardly that attendance of the sabbat is the key in which one sees the self as other and it shows one the way through the self and thence tpo all. In a real sense it is a tool that enables one to see one’s taboos, to transcend and become if you will. Perhaps in that light my views were inevitable! Lol

A the roots being the Yezidi – well I agree and don’t .. I think it would be best to say that the roots were in the perceived Yezidi in their social context as outcast non conformists .. which is why the traditional Monty Summers view of the Sabbat works equally as well as say the rite that ol Unca Anton gurged up for the masses … it is a matter of acceptance of minority and transmutation of that through the above below dictum. *Shrugs*

I think therefore that the “watchers” and the guiding genii of revelatory witchcraft exist externally of the religions built around them irrelevant of persuasion. Hence the trick can be worked through any religious framework. Which is why the same revelations can be had by people from any society or culture. Hence it is the bloodsong as I was taught it.

I think the diff between Christo Gnossis and Luciferan gnosis is dictated largely by the ability of the subject to face themselves rather than the religion per se – even though the latter does emphasise personal truth more than the former.

In the beginning I was not interested in working with angels as it reeked of Christianity. But, what if religions are written the same way as history - by the conquering party?
I believe they are and so see the effect as moot beyond it being another filter to be peeled away by the seeker.

Who has read Aridia Gospel of the Witches?
I have and here is another thing – remember that Aradian Gospels tend to advocate allegedly socially unacceptable workings as a required precursor to progress. Destroying the enemy is before all favour of else after all .. an interesting point many miss …

In it is a tale resembling that of the fallen angels. And if one follows religion back to the cradle of civilization, the Kurds follow the Peacock Angel, who can be traced to Lucifer, the light bringer (light being illumination - the same illumination that the serpent brought to Eve, that Tubal Cain brought to people).

To my mind it is revelatory especially if we remember that in such a case that it is traced to Lucifer IS proof positive of our own filters through which we see the line extending back. That we apply different names based on the appropriateness of the line gives a lot of the secret away. As I like to remember it doesn’t matter what the different words for dog are – when I say it I mean dog and from my perspective when others say it in “foreign” languages they still mean “dog” even though the word is different.

(I have since read on yes this is just as Bran says about cars – that is a good analogy! Lol … oddly enough, yes I suppose the Atbash would do that too – though I was simply told Baphomet – Baphus Metis and it was left at that .. lol)

That the song has always been there is manifest I should believe. I also think a lot of it is explained more simply by the amusement I found when I noted some JW’s thought I was one of them because of my religious views. I simply omitted to tell them that when I said “GOD” I was not referring to the same entity they were – well not as they could understand it anyhow! Lol

The path is there, the way in which it works is surprisingly delineated. That it has so many names and ways of being seen is proof it is there and that people raised in different social constructs have different jargon to explain the same things. That some will always see this as obvious and others will never understand it is proof of another aspect of such beliefs. Well so I was taught anyhow.

I know many here do not work with gods, but for those who do, what do you think of hte possibility that the bible is either an adulterated or a mis-understood account of what really happened (or more apropos, a deliberate adulteration by the conquering religion)?
All of the above – they aren’t mutually exclusive and show more if considered inclusive I find..

Was the serpent the fall of mankind, or the one who opened the eyes of mankind and gave mankind the right of choice?


Every next step is a heresy and the serpent is the western society’s view of a first written and mass accepted messiah. The name is the same after all. It was the fall of what was but all things end .. it was the opener of the eye chosen for that time in that this was what it did. The choice was already made. The choice and the serpent are related but not the same … That it happened selectively to particular people again is addressing a different kettle of related fish which I seem to think comes along in a minute so I will leave it at that ..

AS for the Azoetia, in part it says "by incorporating the reversal or blasphemy of a belief-structure into his own rites he overthrows its past or potential ability to establish any automatic and conditioned aesthetic response.." this being "not the simple act of rebellion, but rather the precise devaluation of Profane Belief to obtain release from its effects..."

Yes or as it was put later – it is a required part of the attainment of the Magister Templi level of understanding. The path is there and the right people can see it and walk it. *Shrugs*

Despite our belief in craft, many have had the judeo-xtian upbringing of our culture and I see this as a way of "shocking" ourselves out of our societial/cultural beliefs..... anyone????
It is one way yeah sure I very much concur – all the more so as this was a part of the early training I had and those who did the training had never heard of Tubal Caine or Cultus Sabati – although we tended to drink the same well and till the same fields obviously! *BG*

Okay - if it is a mis-conception (whether on purpose by the church or not) that Cain was the son of Eve and Adam, not Eve and the serpent, would that make Lucifer the enlightener and, to an extent, saviour, as A & E were spiritual in the garden of Eden and had to descend into matter before they could evolve by death and rebirth... (hope I am making sense here -)...
Also - do you see a "One" a "The All" and the "lesser gods" as creations of our own doing so we could relate to "It", as "The All" is beyond our ability to fathom? And if yes - then would not all demi-gods be traceable back to the Fallen Angels as the mythos of almost, if not all, regions have had an original beginning in the cradle of civilization?
Yes there is a something beyond our ability to know – I often leave it at that cause all else would be guessing. Yes there are others and they are by definition part of ALL and they can be seen in different ways in differing levels of ability and function and so on. I wouldn’t say this could be traced back to these prototypes rather I would say that reality was described by those people at that time in this way ..

Do you take the myths as mysteries of understanding a "concrete truth," or just as legends?
I refute the difference. To my mind all experience is just understanding and all stories are an explanation of something to someone somewhere – which is why these days sometimes the newest cartoon can be more revelatory than the oldest scripture. It is also why I consider movie trailers and posters to be omens and a form of divination of sorts. *G*

And if Diana (inthe Italian myths) created Lucifer out of herself, then are they not, ulitmately one, although not the same - like one is the "other half" or polarity, of the other?
If you take the legends in that perspective then yes. In that sense the meaning is no less I imagine than simply reading it as mating with her brother in order to produce the next thing which is obviously also the self. I see heresy, union and return to original in either perspective.

Do you see any similiarities between Ariaia and Jesus and Tubal Cain? A & TC both taught the crafts to the humans, and A & J both taught and ascended. Do you think this is another telling of the same myth, but with different characters, in which case, if all myths are traceable ultimately back to a similar/same core, (like Inanna - descending for three days and then ascending) then are not all mythos and religions following the main "route" back to an evolution that enables one to "re-merge" with the "The All?"
If you look at it that way then yes why not? As they say all religions at base tend to espouse the same general ideas and by remarkable lack of coincidence are often misused in the same general ways. I see them as tin openers – no matter who makes em, how they subsequently look they are all designed to open tins. Some require more effort to use than others, some are more amusing than others .. but they are all for opening tins – whether the one holdi9ng them knows how or not. That same tin opener can also be used to bludgeon an attacker or bluff the blind after all ..

All religions to my mind are designed to provide a method by which one may be set upon the path and progress. That all religions get highjacked is obvious and so some are more obvious than others. Of course some will only ever be indoctrinated followers while others will achieve revelation and make use of their position – that is the nature of things.

And does this then lead us back again to the Fallen Angels, and does this make the Christion’s God, one of the demi-gods created in the Christian’s attempt to define the "The All?"

In order:
It does if that is the nomenclature one has and uses preferentially.
It makes that a distinct possibility.

I suck at rote memorization, so I know I don't have all the myths correct, but I'm good at "abstract ideas", lol, and I keep finding this recurring theme and am trying to trace it back to its source, or, in this case "Source."

That is why you see it – those best at rotes are those best at following rather than questioning. *G*

Yes - I've read Te Pillars, and found it very interesting in relating so many gods/goddesses back to Lucifer, but found that it really has raised more questions than it has answered, lol......
To my mind, yes it uses Lucifer because that was the filter the author was looking through. Many other names could have been possible if they were in different places at different times or perhaps simply had done different research.

Where one comes from is instrumental in understanding how they will see the scenery on the path after all. Once I was given a vision of Lucifer weeping at the trial. The most scintillating moment were silver tears. The symbolism in this (as in a dream say) must be understood in a subjective sense and riddled in that way if sense is to be achieved quickly in a useable format.

Hence these things are all “mysteries” I suspect. *G*

Oh and KW I concur it is a major reason why the vast majority of “Pagans” will not like some beliefs – some are apt for some and not some others – hence some will get it and some won’t. I accept totally it is a something in the blood (to be poetic) though it isn’t per se strictly due to lineage of body but rather spirit I find. Hence again another bunch I find myself latterly reading the stuff of and saying: “Well yeah .. how is THAT a “secret” .. but again .. that is making it hard for the self surely!?” lol

OLD CRONE – I like the bit you had in there – it is why I am the others I knew saw the Devils Advocate as pure proof of love – the story being after all how one magus may misunderstand and reject their own goals .. and then despite it all be given a second chance over and over again – as many times as it took.

And lastly (but surely not leastly!) Demon Blackrose – I think one point that seems often missed in all such discussions is that the books of the paths we are discussing are works of art. As such they are inspiration driven. It has long been my contention that when one enters truly into that phase of being then one is liable to do so and is in very little way differet from the level of trances etc that typify various magical techniques .. hence one can expect all and any actual works of art to display the hallmarks of revelation and more importantly be vehicles for those with the spark to fan the flame! *G*

Subsisto

Scott

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#19 Cairelle

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:32 AM

Damn, Scott - you always make my eyes roll around in my head.

Wait, that doesn't sound right. :rofl:

Damn Scott, when I read these posts of yours, my eyes roll around in my head because I'm trying to process it all.

Excellent, as usual. You have such a way with words. :D

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#20 Guest_Lea_*

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:50 AM

Scott, you do serve up a fine steak!!!!! :)
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