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Disillusioned Wiccan? Yep, that was me.


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#41 Mountain Witch

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 08:32 PM

I'd also like to substitute "So mote it be" with something non-Masonic.
I always liked Yul Brynner as Ramses the Great say, "So let it be written, so let it be done" in that old "Ten Commandments" movie. What a voice.
Any thoughts? "As I will it" ... something like that? It does give a nice send off and sense of closure for a spell to have a closing statement of power.


Not only did Yul Brynner have a wonderful voice, I could stare at him all day as the King in "The King and I" (keeping a tissue handy to mop up the drool)!

But back to topic ... I just use the word "DONE" (heavily emphasized, of course). I've never been one for fanfare or complications. If one word does just as well as two (or more) ...

And my 2 on the issue of what King Jimmy changed ... some research I've read doesn't go back to the original Hebrew but they suggest the "original" Greek word meant "poisoner" (pharmakoi was modified to make it negative). In other words, it was OK to use magic for good but not for "evil". I've wanted to get my hands on an early Bible out of intense curiosity but don't have the bucks to spend (more than $10,000 for an English translation of a pre-KJV).

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#42 Grymdycche

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 04:58 PM

A small excerpt from that link I posted earlier:

In its original Hebrew text the verse reads: M'khashephah lo tichayyah. Literally this means: "May a m'khashephah not live" or "You will not keep a m'khashephah in life." M'khashephah is the feminine form (although it also has a collective meaning) of a term which can also be used in the masculine m'khasheph). It means someone who practices k'shaphim, a magic characterized by spell-working that aggressively makes changes in the environment.
K'shaphim appears to be derived from a Semitic root K-Sh-P meaning "to cut off" (it may or may not be related to the Akkadian kashshapu and its feminine kashshaptu, terms used in Babylonian culture to denote certain magic-users). Its most important trait is the application of psychic power through directed use of specific words and sounds (i.e. spell-casting), but in a completely private manner, hidden from the rest of the community.

Although it could, in theory, be applied to beneficial as well as harmful ends, the practice of k'shaphim was usually thought of in terms of its destructive possibilities (i.e., the power to cut off life and prosperity), since this was what inspired the most anxiety in society at large: a m' khasheph or m'khashephah could cause illness or barrenness, or even kill, without leaving any traces that would connect them to these actions. The only way to guard against their power was to discover them and neutralize them(which, more often than not, meant killing them).


They also note, that the "-ah" suffix seems, possibly, to denote females only. Well, hebrews always were patriarchal, but it's worthy of mention that they were far from the only ones back then.

There's also the line in the OT (Torah) elsewhere about even mere divination also being sinful too.. Deuteronomy, I believe? I'd have to look it up.

Basically, I just think the whole thing was/is a power play so that the elite priests would be the only ones with that kind of power, and that everyone else was to supplicate their will to them, and thus God. I despise the idea of a mandated liaison, proxy, or middle person to be able to brush with nature or divinity. Who they hell are they to say they're better than me and everyone else?

And hey, this whole thing didn't stop the venerable King Saul from seeking the counsel of the so-called Witch of Endor, now, did it? ;)

Then again, reading that article in more depth, the "witch of endor" is not described by the same term, exactly; she is a medium or necromancer, per se, not a witch. She is described as kind and generous, in fact.
So, we might have a precedent here for "white" witches and "black" witches, biblically speaking.

Even so, even if the Bible really does say, in effect, "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live".. I don't care. I'm not semitic, and I see no reason to follow a semitic religion just because the Romans pushed it on Europe 1700 years ago.
Meh.

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#43 inca4charm

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 05:01 PM

I totally agree with you...I read quite a bit of Wicca and some of it did not sit right with me. And although some of the focus/meditation work has been helpful, in the end it was not the right path for me.

#44 SweetDreams

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 01:04 PM

In the beginning it was the same for me also. All I could find was Wicca this and that but what bothered me about it all was when it began. All these different types of craft had a start date. "A start date?, How can a religion have a start date?" This is what kept crossing my mind. So I kept searching and searching for what I was feeling on how things should be for me which lead me here. Once I found the traditional path I felt a satisfaction that was unreal. I felt so much comfort and understanding, I felt like I was home. The freedom and joy has changed me, made me a better person, and with a forum like this where interacting with others that believe the same but still keeps the privacy in check is so on point for me. Doing what I feel is right form me and my family makes it so personal. I am me and I do what I need.
Be positive and live life well.

#45 Marion

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 10:05 PM

Not only did Yul Brynner have a wonderful voice, I could stare at him all day as the King in "The King and I" (keeping a tissue handy to mop up the drool)!

But back to topic ... I just use the word "DONE" (heavily emphasized, of course). I've never been one for fanfare or complications. If one word does just as well as two (or more) ...


Or you could go with that other baldy thesp with a sexy voice (Patrick Stewart) as Jean-Luc Picard "MAKE IT SO!" :)

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#46 TigerLily

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 10:17 PM

Or you could go with that other baldy thesp with a sexy voice (Patrick Stewart) as Jean-Luc Picard "MAKE IT SO!" :)


I totally read that in his voice :D

"Let it all be animal, my life and death, hard and clean like that, anything but human... a lot I care, me with my red heart in the dark earth and my tattooed feet following the animal ways."
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#47 autumngirl

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:19 AM

In the beginning it was the same for me also. All I could find was Wicca this and that but what bothered me about it all was when it began.


I hope this isn't OT, but I have a pet theory about this...the Wicca phenomenon, I mean. I think, oddly, and Gardner et. al. not withstanding, *today's* Wicca (in its various traditions) is witchcraft...phrased in a Judeo-Christian context. In other words, we are surrounded by Abrahamic (sp? whoops) religions, for the most part, at least if we're in the U.S. or much of Europe or a bunch of other areas of the globe. And it's entrenched in us that we can't go "against" "God's plan," we can't "want" things, we can't be materialistic in any way, we can't think of ourselves first rather than thinking of our neighbors first, etc...or else we won't get into heaven.

And it's so firmly "in there," culturally, and all around us night and day, that for many people, even when we wander onto (or maybe back to) a more pagan, more self-propelled path...we STILL have that deep-down terror of "wanting" things, of being "selfish", of "doing" instead of "letting God" do to us.

And that's why, I believe, many people who really have it in their hearts to learn witchcraft, or to simply practice it as they instinctively understand it, just can't...unless there are tons of "...but we won't be hurting ANYBODY...in fact, we'll be helping everybody! Like, seriously! For real. We'll love our neighbors and Planet Earth...yes, sure, that's what initially drew us to a pagan path" caveats thrown in there.

Constantly.

(Which is not, BTW, to say that there are no witches who were drawn to witchcraft specifically to help others. I'm sure there must be. But...the vast, overwhelming majority--at least as far as one would believe based on the amount of self-professed Wiccans out there? I hate to be cynical, but observation of human nature for a few decades tells me otherwise. People aren't bad...but we do "want," we do need, we do have personal loves, desires, requirements in our lives. We just do.)

So anyway, that is, I believe, why there is so much Wiccan teaching out there. It's witchcraft -- but it's Witchcraft Light. It's witchcraft that people with a Judeo-Christian conscience whether they realize it or not (read: an attitude that they really are not supposed to matter, and that if they value themselves more than another, God won't love them and they'll go to hell, etc.), can reach toward as sort of a...I don't know, 21st century compromise.

There is nothing wrong with Wicca, nor with Judaism or Christianity as they're intended for that matter, but I can say I always felt a little "false" when trying to parrot back the Rede, etc....and I felt like if there really is a god...or a goddess, or both, or several...he/she/it/they were disgusted with me for being a phony.

But to swear to the Goddess (don't'cha just hate people who squeal "OMGoddess!" all the time? Sorry for that detour there) on a stack of Happy Planet Incense that I don't wish aaaaaaaaany harm at all to come to that bastard who picks on my autistic kid all the time, I "just" want to "grant him understanding," etc.? Well, erm, no. Not I.

Wicca is a great lifelong path for some. It's a stepping stone for others (like me), a toe in the water to paganism, if you will. There's nothing wrong with it...but it does seem to fulfill the need for people to cover their own asses spiritually, lest God get angry at them. That's just how I see it.

Edited by autumngirl, 15 June 2010 - 12:29 AM.


#48 ValarieAnne

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:48 PM

Good point, and well put!

#49 o_O

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 12:12 AM

Very valid point Autumngirl. I personally think Wicca is very much a beginner religion/belief system for people interested in paganism/witchcraft. As you said it's more comfortable for them when coming from a Christian/Judaism religious background. I do at the same time feel that it's also a very limiting path and really for those who want to rebel against Christianity/Judaism and claim witch, but not truly discover all the mysterious that being a witch holds. I personally think it's a religion where people practice witchcraft but look their noses down at it and where it came from, but that again is my opinion and luckily anyone who really wants to study and practice witchcraft will always find what they are looking for.

#50 Seed

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:22 AM

In my opinion it’s not the method or the way used but the ability of the Witch that is of most importance. Although Wicca does come in for quite a bashing, it is usually those from outside of lineage and initiation that tends to be more scathing.

#51 o_O

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 10:56 AM

In my opinion it’s not the method or the way used but the ability of the Witch that is of most importance. Although Wicca does come in for quite a bashing, it is usually those from outside of lineage and initiation that tends to be more scathing.


Ability is like anything else, it has potential, but if not cultivated properly and given what it needs, it can not reach that full potential. I've found many people who have great ability but limit themselves of what they could become by trying to walk someone else's path instead of cutting their own. And as for those not of lineage or initiation, that has nothing do with being against Wicca or for it. One might come from a long line either of student and mentor or blood but that doesn't give them anything special, sometime it does the same as following an organized path, keeping the witch from achieving their potential because they get taught that certain things are the "right" way and other ways are not. The right way is what you think it is, not what anyone else thinks or does.


#52 MoorDragon

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:25 PM

I personally don't believe that the only path to becoming a witch is through lineage and initiation. That would be like saying that the only true path to becoming a Christian is being born into a Christian family and being baptized.

#53 autumngirl

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:11 PM

I personally don't believe that the only path to becoming a witch is through lineage and initiation. That would be like saying that the only true path to becoming a Christian is being born into a Christian family and being baptized.


That's a very good point.


#54 autumngirl

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:25 PM

In my opinion it’s not the method or the way used but the ability of the Witch that is of most importance. Although Wicca does come in for quite a bashing, it is usually those from outside of lineage and initiation that tends to be more scathing.


Bolding mine. Am I reading/understanding this correctly? Outside of Wiccan lineage, you mean? Wicca as a religion is only about 80 years old, correct? So the lineage can't be very long. I'm not sure I understood what you wrote correctly, though. So somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you mean that people outside of a witchcraft lineage (v. Wicca lineage) tend to put down Wicca more, then I'm actually even more confused. Why would you feel this is?

Edited by autumngirl, 16 June 2010 - 02:36 PM.


#55 o_O

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 01:45 AM

Bolding mine. Am I reading/understanding this correctly? Outside of Wiccan lineage, you mean? Wicca as a religion is only about 80 years old, correct? So the lineage can't be very long. I'm not sure I understood what you wrote correctly, though. So somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you mean that people outside of a witchcraft lineage (v. Wicca lineage) tend to put down Wicca more, then I'm actually even more confused. Why would you feel this is?


I'm with you on this, I think people who are from a long line of witches tend to even look down even more so on Wicca.


#56 Seed

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:36 PM

Hiya Autumngirl,

What im saying is that in my opinion a Wiccan is an initiate of the lineage created by Gardner. I dont see it as the material written by Scott cunningham or others of that ilk. What im also trying to say is that much of forum criticisms regarding Wicca is that its too fluffy, too love n light etc. I'm saying that people who are of that opinion come from OUTSIDE of Wicca which kind of invalidates their perceptions simply because how would they know what goes on within the inner sanctums of Wicca unless they are or have been actually part of it? Wicca acknowledges and uses the darker aspects of the craft too. Although much has been put in the public domain regarding Wicca, parts of it as far as i know have remained a mystery due to the Oaths made. Therefore although its ok to express opinions on it, theyre not that well informed at the end of the day are they?
In my view, the 80 years isnt that relevant as some of the source material Gardner uses, particularly kabbahlist type of stuff goes back further and isnt unlike some of the methods used by Trads today.


#57 MoorDragon

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:17 PM

Interesting points, Seed...However, I don't think that if one is outside Wicca, that automatically invalidates their criticism. If they once were following the Wicca tradition, such as I did, then they would know exactly what is going on in Wicca and that would certainly give their opinions and criticism validation I should hope.

Someone who is from a Family Trad or any of the other older traditions that pre-date Wicca, and had no experience with Wicca might not know all the ins and outs and would have to base their opinion on what they see and read or are told by others who DO know.

I disagree with your assessment of the 80 year history of Wicca. I think it makes a very strong statement the fact that Wicca is largely considered an invented tradition. If I borrowed some stuff from Native American traditions, a little bit from Polynesian traditions, toss in a little VooDoo and top it off with some Anton LeVay writings and decided to call my newly invented tradition BobCraft, I think I'd have a bit of a tough time convincing people that my tradition is truly relevant....but at the same time I understand the argument that all traditions had to start somewhere. Even Christianity had it's early infant stage where alot of people thought it was too young to be seriously considered relevant.


#58 autumngirl

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:36 PM

If I borrowed some stuff from Native American traditions, a little bit from Polynesian traditions, toss in a little VooDoo and top it off with some Anton LeVay writings and decided to call my newly invented tradition BobCraft, I think I'd have a bit of a tough time convincing people that my tradition is truly relevant....but at the same time I understand the argument that all traditions had to start somewhere.


Bobcraft.:rofl:That's it, I'm joining. Does it take a Year and a Day? June 18, 2011, here I come...Do I have to chop wood and carry water and all that crap? Because I mean this is Los Angeles. We don't have trees or water. I'm so screwed!

Aaaaaaaaanyway. You made some very valid points here, IMO, O Bobcraft Lord of the Four Corners. At the end of your post you said newness does not invalidate a religion and I agree. That's true. I guess I just wondered about how there could be the snob factor from a newer tradition (not Seed -- he wasn't a snob -- but rather the idea of looking down on others for one's "tradition" that could be no older than that person's grandfather, perhaps). That seemed a bit weird to me, and dare I say even hypocritical? Oh, sure. I dare. :P

Both you (MoorDragon) and Seed made really good points. I agree with you that the points of those who have been Wiccan but weren't "born into" it (parent having given birth on the altar, I'm guessing? Umbilicus cut with an athame?) should be valid as well. Why wouldn't they? Not having had a family history of a couple/few generations wouldn't mean that person wasn't practicing eventually. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the points made.

I do also agree, Seed (sorry, this is a ping-pong match, switching between people I'm addressing), that people tend to come down on Wicca for its soft-little-bunny-and-chickie side. I'm sorry, but that side does exist. Yes, sometimes people lean on that a bit heavily when we criticize. Sounds mean, but...it's kind of good to blow off steam by giggling at it after years of being told how wrong one is for so much as considering a spell that doesn't nurture Mother Earth's bosom ever so gently and forward the education of little kids in subtropical Africa et. all. Whether or not Mom was renamed by Lady Silver WolfenHead of the Dianic Apartment Building in 1967 at the moment of my birth doesn't mean I haven't experienced Wicca...why would it? (I don't really get that part but again...I may be misinterpreting...not sure.)

But I did not mean to offend on that subject, Seed...so...sorry if I did. I can be mean at times, don't get me wrong...reeeeeeeeeeeeeally mean. But I DO stand by my original point that Wicca is, for many people today, a way of sort of sliding into self-control and self-propulsion, while massaging their "but it should all be for good, so we don't go to hell" side.

Excellent points made by everyone, IMO.

Edited by autumngirl, 17 June 2010 - 04:55 PM.


#59 MoorDragon

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:55 PM

LOL...no, Autumngirl...none of that year and a day crap in BobCraft...a month and a week is all that's required.

In reality, ALL traditions, so long as they are sincere in what they believe in and aren't causing others pain should receive a bit of respect even if we don't believe the same way. I've got plenty of friends who believe in everything from Christianity to Satanism to nothing at all. It's all good.

Hey, If you want to worship a charcoal briquette and name it George, go for it and may your journey be a happy one.

I like Wiccans...they bake nice cookies. I just have a problem with those wascally wabbits who think THEY're the only true Witchcraft tradition that has any real legitimacy and that the rest of us are wrong.


#60 autumngirl

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:57 PM

r

Hey, If you want to worship a charcoal briquette and name it George, go for it and may your journey be a happy one.


WTF...how did you know? (Glancing around furtively, and hiding briquette) You have a good attitude, MoorDragon. You're right. A little respect is in order. (A little! :P ) Thanks for the awesome posts, very eye-opening.