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Disillusioned Wiccan? Yep, that was me.


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#21 Guest_Oakbuchanan_*

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 04:19 PM

Hi Frances, Dont take it personaly but edited your post, adding 'Blessings' to posts is just not done here.. and is making many of us here a bit queezy to put it lightly :)

#22 Sandy

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:55 AM

Yes I just had to edit another one of your posts Frances, please don't use the term blessings on the forum, many people are put off and even offended by it. Thanks. Please keep it REAL and be yourself, we don't do the hoitytoity drama on here, thanks.

Oak - thanks hun x

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#23 Luna

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 02:08 PM

TW is a Hoity Toity Free Zone! LOL! YAY! :D
"I'm not saying, I'm just saying..."

#24 musca

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:37 AM

I knew I was a Witch decades before I would actually admit to it!
It's coming along quite nicely regardless of the crap ....:chakrahearts:


#25 owlblink

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:07 PM

hi Luna, this subject has always been an interesting one for me, and so this post will probably end up being stupidly long, lol .. ! As most people know on this forum, I was deeply involved in lineaged wicca for many years. So this is my opinion on the "disillusioned wiccan" thing.

I think it should be pointed out - for accuracy - that proper initiatory wicca is not fluffy - and it embraces the dark just as much as the light. Initiates of proper lineaged covens spend years working with their dark side - not to get rid of it, but to nurture it and understand it. This is something I think Sandy has pointed out on other posts.

Outside these covens though, is the Fluff. Initially, when wicca 'came out', the general public still thought of witches as evil baby-eating hags, and the purpose of many wiccans, for many years, was to reverse this image. The 60's aided this transition and injected some lurve and tree hugging fun (..man..) I think what happened though, is that it all went too far, and people outside lineaged covens (who could now easily get hold of wiccan material) started practicing this thing which was called 'wicca' but in truth was only half of it ... and so "Pop Wicca" was born. Horray! Not.

Then came the sanitisation of practices, the over use and misunderstanding of ethics etc, some crappy books with velvet covers printed by Llewellyn..etc etc. The whole Goddess thing too ... misconception, wicca was never a feminist path, but again, they pulled to far the other way, moved away from balance.

This is part of the reason why I moved away from identifying myself as a wiccan, because although I trained in proper wicca for a long time (and enjoyed and appreciated all my training) I no longer identify with anything that 'wicca' now presents itself as ... !! what a conundrum. This, I suppose, is my own disillusion.

I am done pigeon-holing myself into neat and tidy boxes, I practice "me-ism" and I am quite happy simply identifying myself as me. I think there is much more to the Craft, wicca has tried to put a magical tradition all together and tie it up in a ribbon, i dont think thats possible with witchcraft.

Do not do what you desire - do what is necessary

#26 Luna

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:33 PM

Hi owlblink! Thanks so much for that post! Sadly I was not fortunate enough to learn "proper wicca" at all...when I seriously started to actively try to "learn & practice" witchcraft, (since what I had been doing was just what I felt was right with no training at all) all I had access to (as as closeted solitary) was all the Llewellyn stuff...so my self training was completely fluffy. Well, ok, most of it. Among the first books I tried to learn from was Green Witchcraft by Ann Moura. Plenty Wiccan for sure, but when you take out all that Wicca fluff, there's some pretty good info in there. And so I practiced the "pop wicca" I guess...but I just really got fed up with feeling like I had to have perfect planet alignment, & the perfect planetary hour, while the moon is not in the void, only after a ritual cleansing bath, & spreading a salt circle on my floor, & being nekkid or in the proper color of robe to get down to the business at hand, ya know? I mean, sometimes you just need get busy burnin some herbs, right?! ;) So, I guess I was a Disillusioned Wiccan, because I only had exposure to the fluffy brand of Wicca. Seems to me I would have been better off not seeking out stuff to begin with, because I think what I was doing before was fine. Just got all muddled up in fluff & I feel a bit like I'm still "detoxing"...

Thanks so much for your post, as it really does clarify things. :D

"I'm not saying, I'm just saying..."

#27 owlblink

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:16 PM

proper wicca


I didn't mean that to sound so pretentious by the way, it was the only word I could think of at the time to describe what I meant, lol .... !

since what I had been doing was just what I felt was right


sounds like the best kind to me! :cheers: I agree with you about the restriction of 'you need this', 'you need that', I mean, there just aren't enough hours in the day to do all the preparation that most wiccan books ask for .. !! and if you have to buy all the stuff they say you need ... then we'd all be really poor ... !!

I love not labelling myself anymore, and not having to conform to a particular way of doing things, or following particular rules. I like building my own way of doing things, which everyone here seems to do! Perhaps thats what we all have in common.

:eheheh: x

Do not do what you desire - do what is necessary

#28 Luna

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 09:18 PM

I didn't take that as being pretentious at all! lol And I just do things the Luna way...guess I follow the "Lunaterian Tradition" :lolol:(My apologies if there really is such a thing...)
And I love this smiley...:ani_witch_moon:

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#29 owlblink

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:35 AM

Dont tell me you are part of the Lunaterian Tradition too ... !! And I thought I was the only one, lol ... !!
Do not do what you desire - do what is necessary

#30 Luna

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 02:06 PM

:lol_witch::rofl::lol_witch::rofl::lol_witch::rofl::lol_witch:
"I'm not saying, I'm just saying..."

#31 Foxglove

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:38 PM

I'm glad I read this thread as it helps me to think that I'm not the only one who has stummbled around and eventually found the right path for them.
I had almost given up competely and thought I can't do this, so much of this (Wicca) feels so unnatural, dancing around for the sake of it and pretending everything I would have to do would be nicely wrapped with a fluffy bow on top when we all know that sometimes things in life aren't all nicey nicey and why the hell should I not do what I can to keep myself and my family from other peoples crap.
All the thousands of things I would have to buy, athames, chalices etc, it would take me ages to buy all that to even get started. I thought I might as well give up now. Was everything I had felt up to now just nonsence as this certainly was not for me.
I'm so glad I found this site and learned that I was right all along, I was right to feel that I know I am a witch and I don't have to follow all those rules and that my own instinct in everything i do everday is right after all.

It seems like now that I have worked this out everything is falling into place and you start to notice little things you everyday are all part of it.


#32 MoorDragon

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 09:02 PM

It's taken me a bit of time to get comfortable with my own ideas about Witchcraft and making the fateful jump away from Wicca. At this point Wicca is such a dominant force in the Pagan Community these days and so many of them have set themselves up as High and Mighty Priests and Priestesses with their little flocks of devoted followers that they truly believe they are the be-all and end-all of all things Witchcraft.

I've been slammed so many times by them for NOT seeing Wicca as the TRUE religion, I was beginning to feel like I was back in Baptist Church again.

Traditional Witchcraft really opened my eyes and further research has proven that when it comes to Wicca, man has taken something beautiful, warped it to suit his own selfish needs, found a few other nitwits to follow along and before you know it, their idea catches on and a few years down the road you have thousands of people running around believing in the same half-baked ideas and casting out all non-believers.

Gee, where have we seen that happen before?

Since MOST Wiccans today are Christian converts, it seems to me that all they've done is taken their former belief system and put a black pointy hat on it.

All this nonsense about following precise protocol, elaborate degree systems and training programs, only using approved rituals and spells, honoring people's extensive and often fabricated pedigrees and their long lists of who eldered who...

To me Traditional Witchcraft feels like the real deal.

--MoorDragon


#33 ValarieAnne

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:18 PM

I'm still searching for the REAL witchcraft and this forum is a step in the right direction.

MoorDragon


MoorDragon, The "real" witch craft is somewhere inside of us, I believe. We learn more by learning and taking information from others willing to share (like here at TW) and I feel also from looking within, meditating. Sort of like asking for direction and insight. Books can work the same, take from them what feels right to you. If something seems silly or pointless, it isnt right for you. And of course all is balance. Fluffy is good, but so is thorny!

And in your last post you mention about the nonsense of elaborate degrees etc.. I agree with you there 100%!! It just seems and has always done that they want to make it .. I don't know it reminds me of girl scouts or something.. Oh well, I didnt play well with others there either.

Edited by ValarieAnne, 06 October 2009 - 01:21 PM.
more to add


#34 corrina

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:15 PM

hay all, just wanted to say thankyou, i've found reading all this tread really helpful and im also another one who started out opn the wiccan path but didnt get far, i thought it was the right path for me, the idea seemed exactly what i was looking for, being with nature listening to everthing around me, then as you cal it the ''fluffy'' stuff came in and i just didnt understand why and am happy i've found tw that just seems to fix like its part of me :)

#35 FalcnStar

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 02:09 PM

Just wanted everyone to know also...I'm sure some of you already do...but Gardner was also a Mason..and as i'm one also...I know that he even used Masonic principles. The Masons even say "So Mote it Be". So many of the Masonic Rituals are like the wiccan rituals.
Anyway...just thougth I would share that. I'm like everyone else...known I was different forever. When I really and truly figured out I was a Witch...well...I felt like I came home. Did the Wiccan thing for years and years...had a coven even. But I never really could get it to work right. I finally realized that the things I did when I just did them without all the ritual and the way I felt...worked. They were the most powerfu. Many times i thought I was a bad person.....but finally I realized that good and bad go hand and hand. you can't have one without the other. Everything in nature is both good and bad. Everything has a light and a dark half. Nothing is all Good...Nothing is all Bad. It just has taken a long time for me to realize this. Now I know that certain things work for me. And they most definetely go against the fluffy bunnies. Sorry. Oh well.
I'm really glad I have found this site. I was so disillusioned with everything.....it's really nice to know I'm not all alone out there.


#36 MoorDragon

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 03:29 PM

It's one of those things that continues to amaze and confuse me...the fact that so many Wiccans still have no clue that most of what they consider ancient, pre-Christian material was taken from the Freemasons by Gardner. My elder, who is a Stregheria of the Old Religion from Italy is amused by modern day Wicca. She feels that most of them have no clue what they're doing or why they're doing it. They join a coven or group, become enthralled with some self-made High Priest or Priestess with a laundry list of alleged credentials and affiliations and believe everything they are told without question. Then they turn around and pass on the same information to their students later until you end up with several generations subscribing to falsehoods passing for gospel.

#37 Grymdycche

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 08:00 PM

So cool that the "mote it be" thing was mentioned. I'm currently reading Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon", and just came across that very thing two nights ago. The Masons may also have used something very similar to the "Merry Meet and Merry Part" salutation. Another thing wicca may have gotten from Masonry is the "ancient unbroken tradition" BS; in the 18 and 19th centuries, Masons often claimed an ancient history dating back to Egyptian times! lol Such was the veneer of the romantic era.

I was lucky enough to be exposed to witchcraft before the current wicca craze had descended on the publishing world like a rabid flock of white bunnies. My first books, from the '70s, never made any mention of a Goddess, or the rede, or the keywords like "mote it be", or any of that degree and initiation nonsense. In fact, I just got one of them back after being out on loan for 6 years; having the opportunity to reread it, it was quite refreshing.
When I got back into it about 5 years ago, I was confused by the newer crop of reading that equated wicca with witchcraft, and spoke of the Goddess, etc.. I was like, who is this goddess and why hadn't I heard of her before? Slowly it the pieces began to fall into place. They still are though, and I imagine it will be some time before I am happy with a history I can believe in. While the history is not at all essential to working the craft, for me, I just want to know.

Most of what I see in wicca appears, to me, to feed the ego. It provides a hierarchical sense of belonging, which ironically, also means simultaneously a sense of exclusivity for all others. You have your high priestess and sometimes priest. Frankly, I have trouble with a religion that is based on so much ego, and so many fabrications. (Then again, most of the major ones are, I guess. ) Another of wicca's fabrications is that "wicce" or "wicca" meant "wise" in Anglo Saxon. More trolling for ego points. It did not, that was "wyse" and is the root for "wys-ard", the modern word being "wizard". Wicce meant to bend or shape, which still, certainly makes sense to me.
Wicca has created so much confusion and delusion, I cannot help but hold that against it. One big question I have, and that may never be answered is, did "witches" really exist , as "witches", before the 20th century? What I mean is, most magic folk would not have referred to themselves as "witches", as that was clearly, judging by scholarly research, a derogatory term, originally. People whose families held a folk magic tradition most likely would have called themselves something quite different, even though some of them might have been "caught", tried, or even executed as witches. (Still, the vast majority of women executed as witches in the middle ages were perfectly innocent christian women). I used to equate cunningfolk with "early" "witches", and that's quite possible- and interestingly enough, cunningfolk were generally christian as well. While they offered their clients protection against witches spells and curses, whose to say those witches and curses actually existed? It may have amounted to little more than a protection racket on the part of the cunningfolk! (They weren't called "cunning" for nothing!); Or then again, there might have been some folk magic people who, with a grudge, cursed people. But at this point, based on what I know, I seriously doubt, that if this subclass of folk magicians that were not cunningfolk actually existed and called themselves witches. And I seriously doubt there was a remnant of pagan peoples, calling themselves witches, practising magic full time in the medieval ages, worshipping an ancient Goddess known throughout Europe before Christian times. But that's what Wicca claims, or at least.. used to.

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#38 MoorDragon

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 08:47 PM

Excellent points there, Grymdycche...I particularly like the fact that you mentioned the fact that witches long ago did not call themselves witches...that was a term used by OTHERS when referring to those who practiced the folk magics. Just like the word Warlock. It was a term used in a derogatory sense by the Christians. It is my understanding that those who learned, studied or had the knowledge passed down to them through family lines were simply common folk who had uncommon skills for spellcasting, creating potions, healing, etc. And these people had been around since ancient times, long before Christianity took hold. It was when the Church decided to overshadow and eventually eliminate those who did not worship the Christian God that things got dicey. Then the "witches" became the enemy of the church, servants of the Christian Satan and therefore subject for torture and execution. And they had their bible to back them up and give them carte blanche to do it. I understand that King James, who had a particular fear and hatred towards witches, had the bible re-written to include the passage about "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" although the original Hebrew passage does not mention witches.

I believe that there were indeed ancient cultures all over Europe and other parts of the old world, where peoples worshipped all manner of gods and goddesses. And each of these cultures had certain members of their communities who acted as intermediaries between the common folk and the Gods, practiced various forms of divination, healings, etc.. Shaman, Druid Priests, Sorcerers, Magicians, Witch Doctors, Soothsayers...Witches.

That's my take on it anyway.

---MoorDragon


#39 Jevne

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 01:48 AM

The Craft or Witchcraft are terms that I use here for clarification and heck just cause I can without fear. My family doesn't really use those terms often. I hear "our way" or "the way of our family" or "our traditions" or "like OUR family" as if comparing us to other not-like-us types of people. For example, my aunt will say "she isn't like our family". How much contempt is put into the words, depends on the person and the situation. Some of my family members go to church and call themselves christian; yet, I will still hear them make comments that imply other people aren't like us.

I do like to add the final punch to a good spell, though, I do not favor so mote it be. I'm more likely to incorporate some type of punctuating term, such as "NOW" or "GO". I think the Merry Meet, Merry Part thing is silly, but I don't mind the Blessed Be. I'm not one to disregard a perfectly good blessing, especially if it comes from a good place. The archetypical concept of a Goddess appeals to my feminist nature, so I do carry a high regard for certain representations, such as Athena or Demeter. The idea of Goddesses (and Gods, of course) speaks to our culture and, if you go back far enough, everything that it means to be human. The words "Mother Earth" invoke a certain response, even from non-Witches.

Jevne


#40 Grymdycche

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 05:45 PM

Excellent points there, Grymdycche...

Thanks. ;)

And they had their bible to back them up and give them carte blanche to do it. I understand that King James, who had a particular fear and hatred towards witches, had the bible re-written to include the passage about "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" although the original Hebrew passage does not mention witches.


Now that's a dicey thing indeed. I've heard several sides of that argument. The main argument comes from a translation of the word "witch" here, as the original hebrew Torah (1st 5 books of the Old Testament) were translated into Greek before Latin and English. The Greek version was known as the Septuagint, but for Greeks, the closet word they had was pharmakoi, which meant a magical working herbalist, sort of... So the argument goes, when translated back to Latin or English, the word "witch" was inserted to alter the meaning.
However, according to a few well researched articles I found online, that may not actually be the case, and "witch" may have in fact been the original meaning. Not that I care either way though, as I don't need the approval of some 3,000 year old Hebrew priests trying to keep spiritual power exclusively amongst themselves!
The first link here is short, but the second goes into glorious scholarly detail. Well worth the read, IMO:
http://www.hollowhil...witch-bible.htm
http://www.proteusco...teus/Suffer.htm


I do like to add the final punch to a good spell, though, I do not favor so mote it be. I'm more likely to incorporate some type of punctuating term, such as "NOW" or "GO". I think the Merry Meet, Merry Part thing is silly, but I don't mind the Blessed Be. I'm not one to disregard a perfectly good blessing, especially if it comes from a good place. The archetypical concept of a Goddess appeals to my feminist nature, so I do carry a high regard for certain representations, such as Athena or Demeter. The idea of Goddesses (and Gods, of course) speaks to our culture and, if you go back far enough, everything that it means to be human. The words "Mother Earth" invoke a certain response, even from non-Witches.

Jevne


I agree. "Merry Meet" is just doofy, IMO. "Blessed Be" doesn't actually offend me, per se, but one salutation I like way better is "More Power to You", which was mentioned in the first witchcraft book I ever read, that little Dell pursebook.
I rather like that! I might sound even more powerful in Latin:
"Plus potestas ad tu" or something.. ;) (On second thought, maybe that sounds too catholic)

I'd also like to substitute "So mote it be" with something non-Masonic.
I always liked Yul Brynner as Ramses the Great say, "So let it be written, so let it be done" in that old "Ten Commandments" movie. What a voice.
Any thoughts? "As I will it" ... something like that? It does give a nice send off and sense of closure for a spell to have a closing statement of power.

Edited by Grymdycche, 17 March 2010 - 06:11 PM.

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