The Pickingill Papers

[Droghon]

OK I'll get the ball rolling here :)

 

The Pickingill Papers by W.E. (Bill) Liddell and Michael Howard and published by Capall Bann for around ?9.95

 

This book is a collection of detailed correspondence and articles between W.E. Liddell and 'The Wiccan' and 'The Cauldron' magazines between 1974 - 1994. The artcles cover The Origin of the Gardnerian Craft and touches on many other areas. I found the book a thought provoking and interesting .. must have been as I've read it three or four times now ;)

 

W.E. Liddell wrote under the pen name Lugh and claimed to be a member of the 'true persuasion' (The Hereditary Craft) .. I put that in simnply not to offend anyone reading who disagrees :!:

 

There is much in the book regarding the origins of Gardnerian Wicca, and it provides much food for thought. The Pickingill in the title refers to Old George Pickingill (1816 - 1909) allegedly the leader of the Witches of Canewdon in Essex. Old George's influence on Gardnerian Wicca are explored / explained.

 

You can get the book from Amazon here Pickingill Papers or from Counter Culture Books

 

Or of course read it on a site run by our very own Scott here Pickingill . com ;)

[Scott]

Greetings All

 

Well now obviously I am going to say it is a cracker of read! *BG* But here is a quick extra bit for us all in here that frankly is not made a huge deal of out in public.

 

There were some bits that, when Bill was handing on the correspondance that was given him to the magazine, (he didn't actually write them .. just rewrote material given to him and handed it on as a sort of sub-editor) he queried and wanted some parts worded differently so as to suit the modern audience it would get. In some instances these requests were met with flat refusal and I can say that a part of the reson is that the letters were designed to have certain effects and impacts.

 

These range from pushing buttons on some of the more nervy and edgy, through to provoking thought and debate amongst a populous who at the time were largely unaware of anything but wicca all that way to having particular effects on the paths of some who will read it. It is in some ways a difficult book that requires very careful reading and much consideration. I have read it over and over since the first time I was given Bill's copy and told to "go read it and tell me what you thought of it". I personally say that I consider it a magical book as opposed to a book about magic.

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

[Guest wortmistress]

Checked out your site, have read this post and am more interested. I shall purchase a.s.a.p!

[Guest wortmistress]

I have just finished said book and must say that it makes sense. The connections Gardner made etc, his eagerness to join every magical club under the sun. Pickingill seemed an interesting character and I shall investigate further. saying that something tells me that I won't find exactly what I am searching for but it will be a crutch along the way. I found that I was more interested in how Wicca started, and confirmed what I already believed- Wicca is a mixture of old and new knowledge, mixed by a variety of characters!!

[Droghon]

Morning W.M.

 

Glad you enjoyed the book :) There is so much in it, thought provoking stuff and always something additional you see or 'get' when you go back to it time and again.

[Scott]

Greetings W.M, All

 

I have just finished said book and must say that it makes sense. The connections Gardner made etc, his eagerness to join every magical club under the sun. Pickingill seemed an interesting character and I shall investigate further. saying that something tells me that I won't find exactly what I am searching for but it will be a crutch along the way. I found that I was more interested in how Wicca started, and confirmed what I already believed- Wicca is a mixture of old and new knowledge, mixed by a variety of characters!!

 

Hally bloody loo ya! *BG* W.M welcome to the small elite group of people who read it and thought for themselves! That you have said you would investigate further makes you a part opf another even smaller group.

 

As I say you should check out the various words written by detractors on the information therein but I must say that I do say this just to be fair ... most of the problems raised I have ever encountered I must say; have this remarkably similar basis in personality and agendas as opposed to actual facts to disprove the corpus. That would not be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that these same conjectures, opinions and objections are almost always purported precisely to be hard facts that disprove it all....

 

As for the fact that quite often the mainstay of the objections are able to be tracked back to another small but vocal group *Shrugs* well I shan't start on that here - my soap box is elsewhere and I don't want to bother others with our particular party lines! lol

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

[Guest wortmistress]

Gee,I DO like to think for myself and have an honest opinion- I guess that's why I am a bit of a loner and thought of a non- team player! But I meant what I said- I've read a great deal of esoteric books in the past and like to think my B.S. detector is fully functional- this didn't even register.The pieces fit....

[Scott]

Greetings Again!

Gee,I DO like to think for myself and have an honest opinion- I guess that's why I am a bit of a loner and thought of a non- team player! But I meant what I said- I've read a great deal of esoteric books in the past and like to think my B.S. detector is fully functional- this didn't even register.The pieces fit....

 

Oho . .. boy do I hear you on that!! What was it Bill Hicks said: "Aww I'm 'not a team player' !? Oh no - what ever will I do with all these Jersey's I have ordered!" LOL

 

You keep that sort of talk up and you'll have my faith in the future restored! Beware! (Geez who talks like that .. next I'll be saying "rue the day" or somesuch! LOL)

 

Anyhoo I'll let Bill know I spoke to someone who said so - it'll cheer his day! *G*

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

[Guest wortmistress]

No probs,I tell it how it is! I can't believe that I'm in a minority believing it but I suppose if a few fluffies have only read Silver R.W. and the like, they will only have a small perspective. Me, I like to have a broader spectrum. Chuffed that you'll pass it on!

[Scott]

Greetings W.M

 

No probs,I tell it how it is! I can't believe that I'm in a minority believing it but I suppose if a few fluffies have only read Silver R.W. and the like, they will only have a small perspective. Me, I like to have a broader spectrum. Chuffed that you'll pass it on!

 

Good for you!

 

Funnily enough the main small vocal group that leap up and down about the articles are of what I call the (excuse my less than serious reference) "I've been to Uni too" (after the Redgum Song: "I've been to Bali too") crowd.

 

Basically the mainstay of them all belong to a particular larger umbrella pagan organisation, have similar vested interests in rubbishing it all, are all in close contact with each other, have very close matching ideas based somewhat loosely on the works of basically two or three authors (who don't exactly tend to enjoy the heavily simplified version of their works these same most often sprout) all tend to rely heavily on huge leaps of tenuous (at best) logic, have comprehension skills that seem greatly and repetitively limited by personal bias, seem to feel that every baby must be tossed with it's bathwater and very specific referencing to attempt to sound scholarly and last but not least make a real nasty habit out of denying all of the above while accusing everyone else of it. *Shakes Head* It irritates me but what I find worse is that this is in danger of being considered acceptable by the masses.

 

I can feel an article coming on that I have avoided for some years basically ... I am just apalled these days at what most people seem to consider as decent debate and of course academia.

 

A while back I stated on another list some things that ensured my teeth ground. Funnily enough many of these were related!

 

"Well I am published",

"Well I go to Uni";

"Well I belong to ___ Organisation",

"Well I have lots of friends",

"Well all my friends agree with me",

"I read a book that said",

"I know a friend who said",

"You are just wrong",

"I am just right",

"I am nicer than you",

"You are a poo bum wee head",

"Here's my last word",

"My HP(S) is bigger than yours"

Insults made to sound somehow virtuous

Logic and rationality being treated like the tools of a simpleton

 

Funny that

 

Fraternally

 

Scott

[landunderwave]

Though I haven't read this book yet, I was looking for it on the internet and found this link to a discussion: http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/index.php?topic=19416.0

Which could perhaps be of interest, so I thought I share it.

Haven't read the discussion yet, too, but I'll surely read it after I've read the book. (If I can get it, because the only way you can get it here in germany is used and for horrendous prices. : /)

[AnjelWolf]

Though I haven't read this book yet, I was looking for it on the internet and found this link to a discussion: http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/index.php?topic=19416.0

Which could perhaps be of interest, so I thought I share it.

Haven't read the discussion yet, too, but I'll surely read it after I've read the book. (If I can get it, because the only way you can get it here in germany is used and for horrendous prices. : /)

 

Wow...you haven't read the discussion yet have you...you probably should have. I did. I was disappointed. I found it to be insulting as well.

[landunderwave]

@AnjeWolf: I did say that I haven't read the discussion yet. You even quoted me, saying that I haven't read it yet. ;)

[AnjelWolf]

I understood that and yes I did read that...I posted that remark to help you realize that you should have read that discussion prior to posting that.

[landunderwave]

ok next time I won't post a link I don't know. Though it was out of a good intention. : / As I skimmed over I couldn't find something offending. So please accept my apologies.

[AnjelWolf]

ok next time I won't post a link I don't know. Though it was out of a good intention. : / As I skimmed over I couldn't find something offending. So please accept my apologies.

 

No problem...just read the stuff prior to posting anything...anyone can make a mistake Lw...I've made them...Scott has made them...Cindy has made them...we are all human...just read before posting because the content might not be suitable for the forum :)

[AnjelWolf]

Also as you read the discussion it talks about how the papers were fake and mythical lore and etc...we have Bill Liddel on this forum LW who is the direct ancestor to GP...also Scott (from what I could gather) assisted in some way of helping put the papers together. So thats 2 members of this forum. That discussion (though posted with good and innocent intentions) slammed the paperwork and regarded it as fake. Now...(to me)...I found that to me insulting...as insulting as if someone from another path (say Wiccan) were to post on here that Trad. path is fake and a mythical lore and so forth. Do you get my jest on why I said I found the discussion to be insulting? If you didn't then that's your view...my view? It was insulting to the people who put their hard work into the papers...and to GP and his relatives as well as his coven people (by which the discussion said couldn't have existed and was mythical lore and/or fake as well).

 

Below is an excerpt from the discussion...

 

Gabelritter

Registered Member

*

Offline Offline

 

Posts: 939

 

 

Virgo White Wind - Communicates SpiritPlanetary

 

Oh, pardon me, does my lantern bother you?

 

 

WWW

 

 

Re: George Pickingill's nine covens

? Reply #6 on: 2006/May/11 @ 03:08:40 ?

 

Well, here's my two cents:

There is no such thing as a "right" myth. That's a contradiction in terms. Myths are not intended to be "history" or a part of the historical "art/argument."

 

Now from a historical / practical standpoint - which is how GP is presented: George Pickingill is not only a fable, but an absurd one. Just give it a try yourself:

You have nine groups of people and you must meet with each of them an absolute minimum of 17 times in the year. You must also attend numerous other functions, settle arguments, ect ...

To do this you must walk or more likely find a horse drawn conveyance.

None of these groups is closer than three miles to any of the others.

Give it a whirl.

 

From the point of view of a fable or an illustrative myth?

I side with Rhiannon on that one.

 

FFF,

Trystn

[Tana]

I followed the link and read the whole discussion thread. No mean feat as it ran to 15 pages! I too found the responses to Bills posts insulting and peurile. I was impressed with how much dignity he responded and how open he was in trying to carry on posting the information about Pickingill and the Lugh material. I hope we never treat anyone like that here!

[Droghon]

Hi Ladunderwave,

 

don't worry about the link, some of us have been following that discussion since it started. I don't think you've offended anyone, those of us following it know what the level of the replies to Bill's posts have been and are alternately amused and stunned by the level of the playground arguments thrown at Bill, if you read earlier posts on this thread by Scott and I, you'll see our opinion of the people responding to Bill ;)

 

You may want to have a look at the Cappel Bann website and see if you can pick up the book there, I'm sure they ship to Europe.

 

Tana, like you I'm amazed at Bill's forbearance and dignity with those people. I feel for every 2 or 3 self appointed intelectuals posting there, if maybe 1 or 2 people read Bill's posts and actually think about what he is saying then it's a reasonable trade off.

[landunderwave]

Thank you Droghon. :oops:

[Anglian Queen]

I've been following the thread on PN forum as well and have found it very interesting - the style of critique by other members towards Bill is indeed quite merciless but enemies like that can make us greater in the end. The guy comes over with a lot of dignity. I read the PP years ago and can quite believe, as Scott says, that this is a magical book as opposed to a book about magic.

I actually like the PN forums precisely because they're the way they are - it's one of the few forums i'v come across in a while where people actually argue, thrash things out in an uninhibited manner and generally just say what the hel they like short of swearing at people and calling them expletive names (though i'm sure that's happened as well in the past!). Now this cut-throat style of debate can take quite some getting used to (and likely makes some people inhibited about posting and expressing a view at all), but i got used to it in Asatru forums and quite often in the end one simply can't help just joining in the fray (i think my days of the "cyberspace bloodfeud" are over now though! I think i'd have to be pretty pushed to go back to the virtual axe-hurling days of my "youth" - it just gets tiresome after a while! ) Previously I hadn't seen anything like this anywhere really outside of Heathen Forums (maybe i'm just not " well travelled enough!"), and whilst these have calmed down somewhat and are usually pretty polite nowadays, i ws really surprised to find a similar sort of style in a more general Pagan forum like PN. I'd dare bet that forum was deliberately chosen though, either by Bill himself or someone else! (Didn't someone say something about "stirring things up"? I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't more than a little cauldron stirring involved in all this - hee hee!)

[anjeaunot]

Greetings Anglian Queen

 

I am glad you are following the PN forum. I am learning a lot from it. I am hoping the moderators close the thread soon. It is exhausting work. I never joined to stir.

 

I had two reasons for entering the fray; to clarify why my Elders originated the material; and to challenge Sethur's claims about a letter which supposedly claimed that the Lugh corpus was full of lies.

 

It is interesting how Sethur has changed his stance on this thread. When he was first challenged about this letter, he said he would produce it soon. When challenged again he said he couldn't produce it because his ex wife would not give it to him. Initially he claimed that I had written all the material myself. Then he was forced to concede that I had Elders. At a latest stage he admitted that he agreed with 90% of the Lugh material - but the remaining 10% were the important parts.

 

Sethur has been forced to reverse many of his initial claims on this thread. I do hope other viewers have noticed this.

 

Thank you for your kind comments.

 

Regards

Bill

[Scott]

Greetings AQ

 

I never mind people getting hot and bothered hell I always think "Well at least this shows that they actualy believe what they say!" Ahh that mob over yonder frankly I consider like those we have both (is seems) have encountered that cling to this or that interpretation of the sagas etc rather than reading them for themselves and making up their own minds and thereby experiencing the same in a real way. It doesn't work that way and thank the gods it doesn't! The only diff is that these bunch are doing it about witchcraft rather than say the Har or Alvismal .. *shrugs* They are crazy but you gotta love em - well someone has to! lol

 

Still at the end of teh day the info goes out - it is getting read by those it should and the thers are railing hard and doing what they are supposed to - being advertising! LOL

 

These days my gripes on lists etc are the following (and you can spot em on lists - I have a whole stand up rountine on that - don't get me started!*G*):

 

1. Liars - follow the story on here and there and everywhere and the stories just never add up and are never the same - I always wonder why bother? *Shrugs* When you query it it comes out as a constant tirade of passive agressive abuse or high school level "you are a poo bum head anyway" type stuff ...

 

2. Alleged scholars with no comprehension skills - these to my mind are like the "two thousand year old vampires you meet who alway seem to be teenaged gothlings worrying over the next high school project". I always find it funny that those who tend to harp on the most about "scholarship" etc never can wrap their heads around the simplest sentances. They therefore can't folow teh simplest of arguments, nor formulate their own but simply brandish this name or that (Hutton! is a current fave) like a holy relic to ward off evil.

 

3. The smug fence sitters - These are the funniest they have no real stance on anything - hence they are everyone's friend. They say nothing and so can swap sides quickly etc. They have no purpose it seems other than to make silly comments at what anyone else says. I consider them Armchair Privates - even the Armchair General has an opinion after all! lol

 

Ahh as I have said often to Bill most often that mob have difficulty even with the simplest of differentiations - let alone simple logical debate progression. They are looking for the hand book of lengthy rituals foot noted here and there which prove the origin in the place of their desired choosing. The problem of course is that he real world doesn't work like that nor does history. They look for pre wicca wicca and whan they don't find it (because of course a thing cannot exist before it is called into existence duh!) they announce happily that they have disproven everything other than their own stance.

 

I often think it would be wonderful if it DID work like that - hell it would make everything so much neater wouldn't it!??! LOL

 

FRaternally

 

Scott

[Tana]

Scott

I have adopted your phrase "Poo bum, wee head" as my favourite insult and it makes me childishly giggle every time I use it!

[LadyAlicia]

Well, I have read through here and it has peaked my interest in picking up a copy of the book and give it a read. I found one in the Indigo/Chapters used book section.

 

Thanks for the title

Allie