Red Thread

[AnjelWolf]

Peter Paddon talks about this in The Croocked Path Podcast episode 27.

 

http://www.crookedpath.org/oldshows.html

 

It seems to me that it's a question of lineage and if that makes you more genuine as a witch. I think having witches in your family is a god thing if they want to pass the knowledge on, you get to learn from people you trust. But even in "witchy" families there are people that choose not to follow the families path. I wonder if they just try to deny it or if they just don't have "it"?

I think you can be a witch even if you don't grow up in a family of witches. So the way I understand it the red thread is a tradition and the lore and practices of that tradition passed on from person to person, not necessarily in the family.

 

Thistle

 

 

 

Keep in mind that in those days (1200+) many people (especially women) were considered witches.

 

If you need proof simply look back on Salem.

[Thistle]

Keep in mind that in those days (1200+) many people (especially women) were considered witches.

 

If you need proof simply look back on Salem.

Of course. I agree with you and I can't see that I said this wasn't true. I guess you mean that they didn't have anyone who taught them. I think the fact that so many women were considered witches is pure fear of something people didn't understand. Can you elaborate on what you mean with your post?

[Tana]

It seems to me that it's a question of lineage and if that makes you more genuine as a witch. I think having witches in your family is a god thing if they want to pass the knowledge on, you get to learn from people you trust. But even in "witchy" families there are people that choose not to follow the families path. I wonder if they just try to deny it or if they just don't have "it"?

I think you can be a witch even if you don't grow up in a family of witches. So the way I understand it the red thread is a tradition and the lore and practices of that tradition passed on from person to person, not necessarily in the family.

 

Thistle

The lineage and authenticity debate is often the cause of internet 'Bicca' and also a fairly pointless exercise. Most of the genuine lineaged families are rightly silent on the issue because there is no way to win with this one, and in any case winning is not part of their motivation. And I agree with you Thistle that 'you can be a witch even if you don't grow up in a family of witches.' I do not use the term genuine to call into question whether someone is a witch, but merely to separate those with a genuine family heritage from the red thread lot. The red thread is an internet myth, and like many myths it has some tenuous elements of basis on actual practice, surrounded by a lot of smoke and confusion and falsehoods. Best to ignore things like this.

[AnjelWolf]

Peter Paddon talks about this in The Croocked Path Podcast episode 27.

 

http://www.crookedpath.org/oldshows.html

 

It seems to me that it's a question of lineage and if that makes you more genuine as a witch. I think having witches in your family is a god thing if they want to pass the knowledge on, you get to learn from people you trust. But even in "witchy" families there are people that choose not to follow the families path. I wonder if they just try to deny it or if they just don't have "it"?

I think you can be a witch even if you don't grow up in a family of witches. So the way I understand it the red thread is a tradition and the lore and practices of that tradition passed on from person to person, not necessarily in the family.

 

Thistle

 

 

 

Of course. I agree with you and I can't see that I said this wasn't true. I guess you mean that they didn't have anyone who taught them. I think the fact that so many women were considered witches is pure fear of something people didn't understand. Can you elaborate on what you mean with your post?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very simple...when you say "I think having witches in your family is a god thing if they want to pass the knowledge on, you get to learn from people you trust" I meant that back in those days MANY people (women specifically) were labeled "witches" for one reason or another and this thread is based on what is called a red thread (family lineage I presume).

 

I was merely pointing out that a woman could have been labeled as a witch but in truth she wasn't and for that you'd only have to look as far as Salem.

 

Here is another example...one that is close to my family line.

 

Katherine Gerard was a witch, back in Aberdeen, Scotland. She is in my family line. So does that therefore make me more of a witch than the next witch? No, of course not.

 

Truth, Katherine is in my family line and was a witch...but I grew up as a witch because my mother raised me as such. My family is a family of witches.

 

BUT...having said THAT...it still doesn't make me a witch. It ONLY makes me lay claim that I have KNOWLEDGE of witchcraft on some level.

 

THAT still doesn't MAKE me a witch and anymore than the next Joe Smoe out there.

 

What makes me a witch is LEARNING and USING witchcraft.

 

You can take a child who is a family of witches, but doesn't learn anything or rejects it for whatever reason and you can take a child from any other path (let's just throw Christianity out there for example) and HAD walked that path for many years, only to turn to witchcraft and set their mind to it and LEARN and USE whatever knowledge that they gain and you know what? The child from that christian upbringing WILL more than likely become a better witch than the child raised around witchcraft but rejected it.

 

Family lineage is nice to toss around whenever...but when it comes down to it...family lineage can't hold a candle to a witch who has the desire to learn and use (even if they are from a previous faith-based path).

 

And I'll be honest here...the talk of family lineage and "true witches" and "red thread", etc. is to me nothing more than someone trying to seek the spotlight of "oh lookie! I'm important! I have so and so in my blood!!!"

 

...not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or piss anyone off...but that is just how I view this.

 

Which is why I don't bring up my family stuff...it doesn't really mean that much when it comes down to it.

[Nyxiah]

And I'll be honest here...the talk of family lineage and "true witches" and "red thread", etc. is to me nothing more than someone trying to seek the spotlight of "oh lookie! I'm important! I have so and so in my blood!!!"

 

Exactly - i learnt some of my craft from my mother and although she would have never admitted it my mum would have learnt her herbs/gardening skills from my grandmother because they were both heavily into gardening and herbal remedies - does this make me any more of a witch than someone who has christian etc parents - No, it doesn't make me any different from any other witch out there who has been researching and practising all their lives without prior knowledge.

 

This whole red thread crap is just a scam to exclude people or to lure gullible and impressionable people into giving away their money. Reminds me of the time in high school my so called friends decided to make their own 'coven' and they had little name cards like 'milky way' etc....made me want to puke and laugh at the same time because they excluded me knowing that i had knowledge in the things they were dabbling in, they thought that if you weren't in this little clique you weren't special and didn't know what you were talking about and that they were 'real witches' (god i want to puke just writing that term)....lol so i just told them not to come crying to me when they raised something nasty because i wasn't going to help :D

[Mountain Witch]

I couldn't give a flying f*** about someone else's opinion as to whether I'm a witch or not. It's MY opinion that counts, not someone else's definition. And it certainly has nothing to do with whether there's a witch somewhere in my lineage or not. (I have no idea.) I don't belong to any groups/covens/cliques and yes, I'M SPECIAL anyways!

 

Sure, it might have been easier if I had a mum or grand to pass things down to me but I didn't, so have developed my own way of doing things. I'm stubborn enough I probably would have done that, anyways.

 

These "red thread" people seem to have some problems (as do a lot of other groups). Wish I was around back when they came poking here. It would have been fun to join in the bashing.

[Leigh]

I couldn't give a flying f*** [...]

 

 

It's ok... you can say "fuck" here. ;)

[Desert Sage]

Um, I think I've touched on a lot of nerves. Not my intention. I chose 'red thread' because it was a term I had seen elsewhere and wanted some debate over what it meant. I then changed how I worded it because AngjelWolf seemed to have an issue with my choice of words. I thought the words 'red thread' were the issue, not the idea behind it. Though I've had an inkling all my life, its only now that I find I'm able to pursue the path I've had in my heart all along, but no name for. The concept of red thread was new to me. I wanted to explore it in a safe environment. Sorry if this upset anyone, it was not inteded.

[spinney]

Um, I think I've touched on a lot of nerves. Not my intention

No you have not. This is how we talk round here, we are just brutally honest.

 

I chose 'red thread' because it was a term I had seen elsewhere and wanted some debate over what it meant.

You got your debate, though perhaps a little one sided.

You didn't upset anyone.

[owlblink]

i thought it was a good discussion ;) no one learns anything unless someone dares to discuss it .. !!

 

 

No you have not. This is how we talk round here, we are just brutally honest.

 

You got your debate, though perhaps a little one sided.

You didn't upset anyone.

Edited January 8, 2009 by owlblink

[Michele]

I have read somewhere that some people use "red thread" term to refer to a witch who was born into a witch family (i.e. born from a witch - the red thread is the blood-line thread) and the term "silver thread" to refer to a witch who is a witch by another means. Neither is better or more witchy than the other, it was just used to differenciate between the two types.

[Mountain Witch]

It's ok... you can say "fuck" here. ;)

 

Leigh, I know but it's ingrained in me to try to delete expletives as much as possible. Force of habit, I guess.

[Tana]

Um, I think I've touched on a lot of nerves. Not my intention. I chose 'red thread' because it was a term I had seen elsewhere and wanted some debate over what it meant. I then changed how I worded it because AngjelWolf seemed to have an issue with my choice of words. I thought the words 'red thread' were the issue, not the idea behind it. Though I've had an inkling all my life, its only now that I find I'm able to pursue the path I've had in my heart all along, but no name for. The concept of red thread was new to me. I wanted to explore it in a safe environment. Sorry if this upset anyone, it was not inteded.

 

You haven't touched on nerves at all! What you have done is raised an issue which sparks a fiery debate, and a good thing too! If everything we discussed was sanitised and nice and dare I say fluffy, then what would that make us...:rabbit: ROTFLMAO!!

Oh and don't mind Angel...she shouts a lot but underneath it she is a softie!

[AnjelWolf]

You haven't touched on nerves at all! What you have done is raised an issue which sparks a fiery debate, and a good thing too! If everything we discussed was sanitised and nice and dare I say fluffy, then what would that make us...:rabbit: ROTFLMAO!!

Oh and don't mind Angel...she shouts a lot but underneath it she is a softie!

 

LOL! Basically you asked for a debate and you got just that...TW style. Take it for what it iis worth...and move on.

 

As for me...sweetie I'll let you know when you touch one of my nerves...this kind grazed it....but let someone come on here screaming "Blessed be! The goddess loves you! Let's all hug a tree and sing joyous songs while giving thanks to our goddess for giving us this tree!!!" THEN you'll see one of my nerves being touched...and in a BIG way LOL!

 

Look bottom line...this debate about born witches and non-born witches have been thrown around so much that many of us on here are simply over it.

 

YOU are new here and did NOT know this. NOW you do LOL!

 

If nothing else look at this thread this way...

 

YOU survived a heated debate on TW and lived to tell about it! LOL!

 

It's all good...don't let this ruin your time on here or hold you back from posting anything :)

 

I like to see controversal threads (within respect and limits) it keeps the board active :)

 

So on that note??? GOOD JOB!!! :)

 

What's your next post going to be about????

[Desert Sage]

Michele,

 

thank you. I had not heard of the silver thread before.

[Desert Sage]

...but let someone come on here screaming "Blessed be! The goddess loves you! Let's all hug a tree and sing joyous songs while giving thanks to our goddess for giving us this tree!!!" THEN you'll see one of my nerves being touched...and in a BIG way LOL!

 

Can I be right behind you???

 

What's your next post going to be about????

 

Don't know, what ever else I can drag up :D

[AnjelWolf]

Can I be right behind you???

 

 

 

Don't know, what ever else I can drag up :D

 

 

 

 

oh absolutely!!!

 

As for your next post...I'll be looking for it :)

[Pheol]

I was going to write this yesterday, but decided that the thread had moved past that. Yet I came back today, and I just gotta get this off my chest, as it were.

 

I didn't even get halfway down the red thread article before my eyes glazed over. The writer makes vague remarks and illustrations-- then blathers awhile-- then goes back to the vague illustration, while still leaving the reader in the dark about (what the hell is the point?!). Writer wags a finger at people for being witches for the sake of ego-- all the while confirming that this article is just one big ego trip.

 

And no, I did not finish reading it.

[Guest Rebie]

I was going to write this yesterday, but decided that the thread had moved past that. Yet I came back today, and I just gotta get this off my chest, as it were.

 

I didn't even get halfway down the red thread article before my eyes glazed over. The writer makes vague remarks and illustrations-- then blathers awhile-- then goes back to the vague illustration, while still leaving the reader in the dark about (what the hell is the point?!). Writer wags a finger at people for being witches for the sake of ego-- all the while confirming that this article is just one big ego trip.

 

And no, I did not finish reading it.

 

Yep. I agree.

Rebie

[Michele]

Charm of the Red Thread

(Sung for the thread-binding of spell)

 

Cord of Life, Mother to Daughter,

Cord of Life, Mother to Son.

Blood-thread bind Old Adam's Hide

'Till all his days be done.

 

Cord of Death, Noose to Neck,

Cord of Death, 'O Gallows Pole.

Blood-thread draw the Devil's Stitch

And twine thrice round his Soul.

 

From The V Umbris, by Daniel Schulke

 

one of my favs.... :-)

[Belladonna]

Hmm, interesting topic, the Red Thread, Ravening and Arddhu are all areas that I have had some experience with, and although I am no longer connected with any of those groups, I have to say that although I disagree with their 'holier than thou' and 'only true witch' attitudes which now seem to have become prevalent, whilst I did work with them I found them to have some useful lore, a lot of passion and a massive commitment to ensuring the 'Old Ways' as they saw them survived.

 

I offer this information in the spirit of sharing, not to try and defend their viewpoint, nor to censure them, as they are as free as anyone else (as we all are) to practice in the ways they see fit, after all, if it works for the individual, then thats what ultimately matters!! I also offer this freely, without coercion and in the hopes that it is taken for what it is and not some attempt to start a flaming war or any bitchcraft, but merely as perhaps another perspective for others to consider?

 

I first had contact with one who was involved with them thru meeting online (via ebay of all places) with one who is now considered an Elder of Ravening (tho at the time she was affiliated with Arddhu, but teaching her own sylabus to those who she felt were of similar mindset). After corresponding with her for a few weeks we undertook the 300 mile journey to go and meet up at her home, staying overnight and finding a definite kindred spirit in both her and her husband. After the meeting we were offered training on her course, totally for free, plus the chance to attend several gatherings, some at her home, some in a rented cottage. The meetings were a full weekend and consisted of 2 full days of talks plus an evening rite with the group. At no time were we ever made to feel like we were superior to any other witch, nor that our way was the only way, but we were told that unlike those of wicca, we were witches in our own right, not just playing at it as many of the eclectic wiccans were. Personal study and individual practice was definitely encouraged and considered essential, and IMHO the format was more of a confederation of likeminded individual witches who met up to work together for common cause rather than a cabal of elect or those who considered themselves the only true witches.

 

After a lot of study and a few meetings we were then introduced to an Elder of Arddhu, who was that impressed with what our tutor had acchieved with her small group that he invited us to become a true part of Arddhu, and invited us to attend one of their gatherings, which we then did.

 

There was a palpable diference between those who were of Arddhu and those who were from the other group, with the Arddhu members having a lot more experience of working together, and as will always happen in such a circumstance a consequential ego to boot. Suffice to say that there was friction between the 2 groups, and despite a further 2 gatherings of the 2 groups it ended with an accrimonious split with Ravening then setting up on their own. As we had been attempting to reconcile the differences between the 2 factions, we were offered membership of either group, but thus werent fully trusted by either, so we stuck with our original tutor and went with Ravening for a time. I have to say that the folks that I met at that time were all very committed, humble, not in any way holier than thou or elitist, but did contain a few that had inflated ego's and consequentially we then left the group not long after their Birthing Rite.

 

I learned a lot through my interactions with them, some of which I still use, some of which I now know to be false, but as long as you gain from the interactions, then they can only be good for one's experience levels.

 

At no time was I ever charged for any tuition, despite many hours of work and countless phone calls and letters passing hands, but I can understand why they would seek to charge if the tuition they are giving is as indepth and one to one as we received.

[The Hermit]

Thanks for that insight into Arddhu and Ravening Belladonna I found it actually rather refreshing as opposed to the usual just slagging both groups off as entirely false that you see on the whole.

[Amber]

Hmm, interesting topic, the Red Thread, Ravening and Arddhu are all areas that I have had some experience with, and although I am no longer connected with any of those groups, I have to say that although I disagree with their 'holier than thou' and 'only true witch' attitudes which now seem to have become prevalent, whilst I did work with them I found them to have some useful lore, a lot of passion and a massive commitment to ensuring the 'Old Ways' as they saw them survived.

 

I offer this information in the spirit of sharing, not to try and defend their viewpoint, nor to censure them, as they are as free as anyone else (as we all are) to practice in the ways they see fit, after all, if it works for the individual, then thats what ultimately matters!! I also offer this freely, without coercion and in the hopes that it is taken for what it is and not some attempt to start a flaming war or any bitchcraft, but merely as perhaps another perspective for others to consider?

 

I first had contact with one who was involved with them thru meeting online (via ebay of all places) with one who is now considered an Elder of Ravening (tho at the time she was affiliated with Arddhu, but teaching her own sylabus to those who she felt were of similar mindset). After corresponding with her for a few weeks we undertook the 300 mile journey to go and meet up at her home, staying overnight and finding a definite kindred spirit in both her and her husband. After the meeting we were offered training on her course, totally for free, plus the chance to attend several gatherings, some at her home, some in a rented cottage. The meetings were a full weekend and consisted of 2 full days of talks plus an evening rite with the group. At no time were we ever made to feel like we were superior to any other witch, nor that our way was the only way, but we were told that unlike those of wicca, we were witches in our own right, not just playing at it as many of the eclectic wiccans were. Personal study and individual practice was definitely encouraged and considered essential, and IMHO the format was more of a confederation of likeminded individual witches who met up to work together for common cause rather than a cabal of elect or those who considered themselves the only true witches.

 

After a lot of study and a few meetings we were then introduced to an Elder of Arddhu, who was that impressed with what our tutor had acchieved with her small group that he invited us to become a true part of Arddhu, and invited us to attend one of their gatherings, which we then did.

 

There was a palpable diference between those who were of Arddhu and those who were from the other group, with the Arddhu members having a lot more experience of working together, and as will always happen in such a circumstance a consequential ego to boot. Suffice to say that there was friction between the 2 groups, and despite a further 2 gatherings of the 2 groups it ended with an accrimonious split with Ravening then setting up on their own. As we had been attempting to reconcile the differences between the 2 factions, we were offered membership of either group, but thus werent fully trusted by either, so we stuck with our original tutor and went with Ravening for a time. I have to say that the folks that I met at that time were all very committed, humble, not in any way holier than thou or elitist, but did contain a few that had inflated ego's and consequentially we then left the group not long after their Birthing Rite.

 

I learned a lot through my interactions with them, some of which I still use, some of which I now know to be false, but as long as you gain from the interactions, then they can only be good for one's experience levels.

 

At no time was I ever charged for any tuition, despite many hours of work and countless phone calls and letters passing hands, but I can understand why they would seek to charge if the tuition they are giving is as indepth and one to one as we received.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write that out and explain your experiences - it made for interesting reading. :)

[Guest Lolair]

The practice of using red thread on the Rowan tree as protection from witchery evolved from Judeo-Christian belief, the scapegoat was tethered to a red thread then thrown off a cliff, upon hitting bottom the thread would turn white, thus expelling evil from the community (hmm sound like a spell to me).

 

And yes I/We do use red threads, cords, and fabric in our work....it's not the tool, but the intent that makes the magick happen.

Rowan tied with red thread is a bit older than Christian belief - it was once a charm to ward fairies, evil spirits, the evil eye and magic. Rowan wood and red thread were also braided into the hair of livestock to fascinate evil spirits and trap them in the charm so they could not harm the animal. These charms are from Scottish folklore, which was influenced by the old Norse religion, which used Rowan wood heavily in magic charms - they considered it the "dragon's blood" of woods, it was and still is used to make any charm or spell more potent, especially when the wood is harvested at Beltuinn.

 

For me "red thread" represents the soul, the spirit spun by the Fates. Red because it symbolizes blood and life. In many cultures blood is viewed as lifeforce. I also see the red thread as the witches' cord upon initiation - most traditions within traditional witchcraft use a red cord. So saying you are a red thread witch could perhaps be interpreted as you are an initiated witch. Doesn't make you better than the solitary practitioners, it just means you now have a fancy red cord.

Edited February 7, 2009 by soap fairy

[Scott]

Greetings All

 

Oh gods ... they came a knockin and I missed it. I am heartbroken.

 

You know it's like everything. There isn't any system out there that don't have it's own fictions - and the best ones work cause that is what they are for. One has them as they express certain of the facts better than the fact words can. They evoke within the self the requirement that opens up so that one can hear what is being said and see what it manifest.

 

That is why all groups like books got at least one good line in em.

 

That said I think I have met mebbe two who subscribed to the theory who didn't shit me within seconds for their complete misinterpretation of their own way - and teh subsequent attempts to act like they got it sewn up.

 

The thing that irritates me more than anything is that much of the "oo spooky bits" that have slipped out over the years were goddamned stories I grew up with. Yeah so fact is fact ... since when did that become a great secret (TM of course!)?

 

There are some things that one just can't get unless you got the certain something that isn't a something inside and "arced up". Anyone can have a radio but you gotta be on the right channel to hear the news and to be discerning to hear the news from the thinly veiled patriotic advertisements for social conditioning that average news broadcast is full of.

 

I had one convo a while back with one who was plying the trade thick and fast (Yeah yeah the intentional misuse of teh "witch" thing - it still shits me that!) and I was amused when I finished one of the stories and said: "Geez that is one of your secrets? Fuck lady that is a story every neophyte I ever knew heard as a bed time story round here! EVERYONE knows that round here and what's more we put it to a better use than a "something you don't know" decoder ring so howzabout you just DROP IT!"

 

Shortly thereafter I had a great yarn with another one of them who had heard bits and bobs of that convo and said: "Good stuff. There are too many seeking password status. So many that it is pointless me narking them about it so it is nice to know some others will!"

 

*Shrugs* Like I said there's good uns and bad uns in all ways.

 

Subsisto

 

Scott