Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Resurrection of Animals


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Zombee

Zombee

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts

Posted 26 November 2016 - 02:18 AM

I'm currently reading Carlo Ginzburg's "Ecstacies, Deciphering the Witches Sabbath". What I am interested in is his references to ecstatic experiences, also called night travels, recounted by accused witches, male and female, in records of trials separated by cultures, location and hundreds of years, telling of the collecting of the bones of dead game animals for purposes of resurrection by their deity, usually by touch of whatever tool is associated with the deity. For example, in Lapland it is the touch by a hammer held by Horagalles, also repeated in a legend of Thor, St. Germanus d'Auxerre,and by the touch of Orientes' wand, sometimes equated with Artemis, Diana as Goddesses of animals. Ginzburg also references Hunan, China as another example, so it is a widespread, Shamanic practice.
(see pg. 133-135 Ecstacies...)

Is anyone aware of books or articles giving modern day reconstructed ritual practices of this resurrection of the animals? And of it's significance? This really strikes a familiar ping on my radar and I want to know more about it. And in particular, of any association with Ellen of the Ways, if any. Ellen is important to me from my own "ecstatic" experiences through trance and I'm looking for confirmation.

Thanks in advance.

  • 0

#2 Oroboros

Oroboros

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 944 posts

Posted 26 November 2016 - 07:50 AM

Im sorry I do not have anything worth while to contribute to your question, but...  Overall, was this book as fascinating as it sounds?  Anything that does comparisons of ritual and magic practice across unconnected early civilizations is an interest of mine.

 I hold the belief that these seemingly impossible similarities across cultures that were in very little communication with each other reflects TRUTH that was revealed to these peoples, and therefore makes it quite valuable.  


  • 0

...From ev’ry depth of good and ill , The mystery which binds me still...— Poe

#3 Ravenshaw

Ravenshaw

    Life is good

  • Moderators
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 26 November 2016 - 02:54 PM

Zombee: This is not exactly on par with what you are looking for, but reading your post brought the practice of reddening the bone and its many variations to mind.

 

And I also am very interested to hear your review on this book. It sounds excellent. Sorry I couldn't be of more help in answering your question.


RSKHFMY


#4 Zombee

Zombee

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts

Posted 26 November 2016 - 07:59 PM

It's dry reading by an anthropologist, and he is taking a very wide path around the sabbath, so far suggesting it's a circumstance of mass invention ingrained in beliefs, but cannot pin point the reason for the belief. It's not just an interpretation by the Inquisitors. The chapter called Anomalies is where these references to resurrecting from the bones are found. He only sites that so and so in 1328 said such and such at their trial. Then he sites another instance of a similar reference in another witchcraft trial 200 years later in another location. So far he has referred to night battles for fertility of the crops, the wild hunt as a procession of the dead experienced during night travels, or what we know as Out of Body travel, occurring during "ember days" on Thursdays. (just as a side note, my own trance work was always on Thursdays, by request of the spirits I worked with. They said it was the auspicious weekday for them to communicate.)

Ginzburg mentions that the battles are reported by men, while women report games, and then the Shamanic links of various cultures get a sentence or even a paragraph. The references are reported, not researched or interpreted. He looks at the society's mind-set that produces the concepts. He has lengthy notes, sites his sources, etc., like any scholarly text. It is slow going.

Ravenshaw, reddening the bones did come to mind as a direct connection to resurrection from the bones. He frustratingly cannot provide the rituals because the trial court recorders either were forbidden to record them, or omitted/deleted them from the public records. Sometimes the original records are lost and he works from reconstructed translations.

Another thing I was thinking was that he recorded that mostly women reported the wild hunt and encountering the deceased, and he questioned why...totally missing that it is often the women in rural societies who washed and wrapped the dead to prepare bodies for burial. So I wonder if this is due to division of labor, that while the brawny men dig a hole, or build a scaffold for burning, the women prep the body. Or is it deity related?

He clearly associated women with funereal deities and the wild hunt, and goddesses of wild animals, and men with game hunting and agriculture. He did note that resurrection from bones is present in Euroasian Shamanic cultures, and absent from Celtic.

Edited by Zombee, 26 November 2016 - 08:17 PM.

  • 0

#5 IslandBruja

IslandBruja

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts

Posted 28 November 2016 - 03:28 AM

I just have to say, every time I see this topic in the sidebar on the homepage, my brain (as it does sometimes when reading books too) combines the title and line below it (because the words line up so well) so that I keep reading this topic as "Resurrection of Zombee Animals" :D
  • 0

#6 Aurelian

Aurelian

    The Devils Enabler

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,562 posts

Posted 28 November 2016 - 03:22 PM

I recall the member Scylla, who is inactive as far as I know, talking about this:
 

http://rootandrock.b...thful.html#more

This has some of what you're looking for insofar as ecstatic experiences in shamanism, correlated with animals...interesting read:

Ridington, Robin, and Tonia Ridington. “The Inner Eye of Shamanism and Totemism.” History of Religions, vol. 10, no. 1, 1970, pp. 49–61. http://www.jstor.org/stable/1061822

 

We also had a member who ensouled an animal skull, and had some interesting experiences.  I can't recall who, however, or if any of that was actually posted.

I found this article interesting as well:

Morgenstern, Julian. “The Bones of the Paschal Lamb.” Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 36, 1916, pp. 146–153. www.jstor.org/stable/592675

 

I know in Chinese lore, a part of the soul is said to reside in the bones after death.  Speaking of humans here, I'm not sure about animals, or whom to ask about that.

How wide are you wanting to cast your net here?  I'm seeing lots of questions, trying to focus, heh.


Edited by Aurelian, 28 November 2016 - 04:13 PM.

  • 0
"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#7 Zombee

Zombee

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts

Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:04 PM

Aurelian, thank you very much. I will be reading these with interest. Originally, I was looking for links to Ellen, because of my own trance experiences. Nothing I've read on Ellen suggests she has links to resurrection of the bones, yet my experience suggests otherwise. So, when I recently read this in Ginzburg long years after the experience, I got pretty excited.

Ellen of the Ways is associated with reindeer (female reindeer have horns), Reindeer trods or migration routes, and ley lines.... And she is what directed me to witchcraft30 years ago. So it's a personal quest, looking for validation.

  • 0

#8 Zombee

Zombee

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts

Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:25 PM

Well..through my tears, thank you.
  • 0

#9 Aurelian

Aurelian

    The Devils Enabler

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,562 posts

Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:38 PM

Of course. I wasn't sure who Elen was, so I focused on other questions.  Glad I could provide some things worth reading.  Scylla's post really is beautiful.  I wish she still hung around here.


Edited by Aurelian, 28 November 2016 - 06:04 PM.

  • 0
"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#10 Zombee

Zombee

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 490 posts

Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:37 PM

Resurrection of the Zombee may be needed. I just got back from the store...they arenfreakin' crazy out there!

And some happy news, 2 chapters further into the Ecstacies book, Ginzburg specifically sites reindeer Shamanic resurrection rituals. That may be as close as I can get to Elen. (one L, even though misspell with 2).

  • 0