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Aina

Hedgecrossing, Trance, Vision??

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and yet another reason to consider it, IMO.....why keep yourself bound to a deity that can be a vengeful dick? I wouldn't.

It's a rather common trait across the board when it comes to deity - male or female.

 

 

You think he's vengeful when you are a believer-turned-witch, imagine how nerve-wracking it is to have been a formerly pledged in service to him as an anointed minister.

I think about it a lot...so far no lightning bolts or plagues.

 

I did the Lord's Prayer backwards ritual back when I first started on this path. I think I wanted to "feel" more than I did and was surprised when I didn't. I think that "the Spirit" (whose presence I once felt very closely) had been absent from my life, faith and deeds for so long that it didn't resist the final push. (And was probably ready to get rid of a minister with such resentment towards him anyways). People in the church always tell you how much Jesus cries when a sheep goes astray, how he leaves everything to go and bring the lamb back, but if anyone in heaven was crying tears for my departure, they sure kept it hidden from me.

 

I do think that a better ritual for me may have been the Apostle's Creed backward, as it's a statement of faith and belonging to the church, where the Lord's Prayer is just a prayer of petition and devotion. But that's just me and where I was coming from theologically.

 

I don't have to imagine - pledged in service, that is. It ain't easy being cheesy LOL

 

There's a lot of things in the AC that I still agree with. It's such a personal thing and way too easy to argue over.

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It's a rather common trait across the board when it comes to deity - male or female.

 

Then why the specific comment about this one in particular, if it is something you believe that is considered such a common trait among deities?

 

Have you done the ritual in question and found it to be a bad experience in some way, perhaps?

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Because that was the deity we were discussing.

 

I called myself a Christian Witch for more years than I care to admit to. :red_witch: I understand what she's talking about on a visceral level. It's also not untrue. It's a very real consideration for someone who was once a minister/priestess of said Deity. I get it. I very seriously considered being a nun. Who's surprised?

 

I quite fondly remember having a difficult, yet thought provoking and touching conversation. Those that participated in it will always have my appreciation. I don't suggest having one unless you're ready to do some really deep soul searching. With everything you have going on, perhaps, it's time.

 

No, I haven't done the ritual. I didn't do the Toad Bone Ritual either. Although, I keep coming across little desiccated frogs. The cute little green ones. It's just odd. I have a special love for toads. I'm not going to sacrifice one for personal power. Neither will I willingly sacrifice something that I love. That goes against everything that I am.

 

This has been an incredibly trans-formative time. The support that I found in this community is truly touching. We're all the same kind of weird here. We get it. It's been all big stuff - life, death, ancestors, marriage, divorce, family, you know - Life. Kinda like what you're going through, RG - Life. Death. Rebirth. Initiations. Trials (those suck, btw). You have some big changes coming up. Now's a really good time to figure out who you are and what you want. You're already in the fire. The frying pan ain't much better. :woot: But there is the other side of this. I call it being Tempered. Caps is a blacksmith, he understands the physical characteristics better than I do. Eventually - you're soup.

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Rose, I figured you hadn't actually done the ritual based on your initial response. I've never known or read of anyone who had a response that included vengeance from the christian god, after doing the ritual.

 

Also, IMO inferring that a decision like that is bigger or smaller, based on "who one once was in a church hierarchy" is kinda BS if you ask me. In my mind, either you are or are not a witch-period. No offense to anyone intended by that comment, but it is how I see it.

 

In reality, doing the ritual is admittedly more psychological than anything. It helps one cut ties -in his/her own mind, mostly. It's certainly not for everyone though. However, if you do decide to do it, nothing bad is going to happen to you. There won't be any lightening bolts, curses, or anything scary of the sort coming from a deity that can be a "vengeful dick". It just doesn't happen that way.

 

You may find that a sort of an awakening occurs when you do it- I experienced a deeper connection with the immediate unseen area right afterwards. I am glad I did it as it did allow me to make progress on my path. No regrets here at all.

 

As to the toad bone rite, that is a totally different ritual all together. I don't know why one is seemingly being lumped in with the other.

 

Anyway, to attempt to bring the thread back on track...Aina have you tried talking to those two spirits yet? I'm curious.

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Is there a question or conversation in there somewhere?

 

It is really bullshit to say that there is a difference between a parishioner and clergy? I think not.

 

The Toad Bone right is just about as much of a standard witchy ritual today as the lord's prayer backwards and it has much more to do with hedgecrossing and abilities than the backwards prayer. It's not being lumped - it's relevant to the conversation, since we're speaking of various rituals anyway.

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Anyway, to attempt to bring the thread back on track...Aina have you tried talking to those two spirits yet? I'm curious.

 

I have tried. I asked a few questions but they didn't speak. I did get a better visual though, so they're no longer black shadows. I was going to try again last night but yesterday was an off day for me, just had a hard time functioning. It might be the weather wreaking havoc on my fibro. So I'll try again after I get myself "balanced" again. Plan on spending some time with my ancestors and meditating so that should get me back on track.

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When you enter the clergy, you go through rites and rituals, you recieve special anointings in the name of Christ and the Trinity, etc. You make oaths. You are "set aside" for service and the language of giving yourself and your life as an offering to God is ripe with magical intention (whether that's what they call it or not). I once had a pastor tell me that he beleived that a pastor who leaves their call is essentially an "anathema" ...that is, a vessel that was consecrated for use by God that has now been desecrated or cursed.

 

Now if a pagan had done all these rituals and oaths and anointings in the name of a pagan god, most of us would advise extreme caution against going against their word to this diety.

 

If you believe as I do, that the God of Christianity is, in fact, a diety (or maybe multiple spirits and entities that have attached themselves to the church, the names of its gods and to it worshippers) with the same powers as other spirits, then you take those oaths (and breaking them) very seriously, and the need to protect yourself from them. That's a responsibility that I've chosen to take upon myself because I believe that this "God" is not what he says he is (creator and savior and "one true God") and instead is just a manipulative, vengeful spirit feeding off of the worship of the followers of most powerful religion in the world. Just that, a manipulative, vengeful spirit. But nonetheless, a manipulative, vengeful spirit that that I ritually bound myself to and made oaths to.

 

So yes, I am a witch. But I 150% believe that the spirits invested in the Church I pledged myself in service to are going to be MORE offended by a minister turned witch then someone who attended the church and whose only oath to this god was the rituals of baptism and communion (which are still quite binding).

 

Hence the need to unbind yourself from this god, which we know can be tricky for any binding ritual. This is why for some folks, The Lord's Prayer backwards will be an easy, somewhat trivial ritual and for others, it will be extremely powerful.

 

For me, I was expecting thunder and lightning bolts when I performed it, and was disappointed. But for me, the small daily steps that I have taken over the past year of un-binding myself from my oaths are more meaningful and effective then a one time ritual, and I continue to take those steps to become fully free.

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My apologies to Aina for getting so far off topic, but when someone calls BS on something that is so central to my path and dismisses it flippantly, I feel it has to be answered. Anara, you don't get to drop a bomb like that and then say "now back to the topic" when you were the one that derailed it by telling two of us that our thoughts on the issue were bullshit. Unless you have been through the process of becoming ordained clergy, you can't know what the implications are of all the ceremony and personal intent and ritual, nor how it affects the transition to being a witch.

Edited by RapunzelGnome
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My apologies to Aina for getting so far off topic, but when someone calls BS on something that is so central to my path and dismisses it flippantly, I feel it has to be answered. Anara, you don't get to drop a bomb like that and then say "now back to the topic" when you were the one that derailed it by telling two of us that our thoughts on the issue were bullshit. Unless you have been through the process of becoming ordained clergy, you can't know what the implications are of all the ceremony and personal intent and ritual, nor how it affects the transition to being a witch.

-------------------------------------------

Well then. Look what I did up in here, dropping bombs and all....geez. RG, for the record, I wasn't intentionally "dropping a bomb" and I wasn't being flippant either or being dismissive-even if it came across that way. If I hurt your feelings or made you feel like your thoughts don't matter, my honest apologies.

 

Also, RG, I wasn't calling your thoughts bullshit either, for the record-you did the ritual and you know nothing bad happens- I wasn't even talking to you, actually. If you care to discuss it further, you may certainly pm me and I'd be happy to talk more about this topic. Otherwise, how about we just drop it?

 

@Aina- hope you feel better soon and feel free to pm me regarding the spirit issue.

Edited by Anara

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@ Rose-bottom line, you didn't do the ritual, yet are assuming a vengeful god will come and be a "dick" if one does it. I take issue with that, because it comes across as a type of fear mongering...which is something that is oh so prevalent in the christian church (and again, if you have fear about doing the ritual-especially because of these kinds of thoughts-well then, seriously consider doing it!!-JMO!!)....it is something so many of us worked hard to get away from. I did the ritual, myself, and nothing of the sort happened. I'm doing great as a matter of fact! Couldn't be better.

 

If you would like to talk to me about it further- regarding the rest of this back and forth, you can certainly pm me as well, too! Otherwise, lets drop it, k? I'm good with just agreeing to disagree as well.

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No, I'll address it here. Especially since now I'm being accused of fear mongering because of your assumptions. We can wrap it up real quick because your assumption is wrong.

 

I really wish that people would stop assuming my motivations when I speak/type. Isn't it so much simpler to just ask or clarify?

 

For the record - what you described with the lightening bolts and whatnot - I'd expect more from Zeus. At least it matches the lore.

 

Rose-bottom line, you didn't do the ritual, yet are assuming a vengeful god will come and be a "dick" if one does it.

 

No, actually, I'm not.

 

He's a vengeful dick whether thoughts of this ritual are on the table or not. The vengeful dickishness has nothing at all to do with the ritual. Sorry if it hit a nerve?

 

Anara, were you ever one of 'His' to begin with? There's a world of difference between those that go to church because their parents make them or out of duty or whatever than those that have a Calling to it. Denying it exists is just silly.

 

There is a very deep spirituality and magic that runs through Christianity and Judaism. He is the god of 2 different religions or 1 religion and a giant splinter group. He's the god of 2 of the 3 top/most highly populated religions on the entire planet. We should be able to discuss these things - from whatever perspective we come from. I realize it's an emotional subject and heavy with baggage but we are adults here. Many of us have made the transition in many different ways.

 

Mine way was different than yours. And that's OK. RG's was very different than either of our transitions.

 

Please don't accuse me of fear mongering because I come from a different perspective. Or mention possible risks and consequences. Due diligence, informed decisions, different opinions, different experiences, etc.

 

Besides, I was speaking to RG, not to you, and when speaking to Clergy, one can usually dismiss the extra paragraphs and jump right to the core of the conversation.

 

Let's get one thing straightened out here and now. I don't have a fear of doing the ritual. I'm not a red thread kind of witch, I'm not Luciferian, I'm not a theistic Satanist. I'm not a lot of things. I also dislike redundancy. Do you (any of you) honestly believe that this is the one and only way of giving God a great big Fuck You! Cuz it's not.

 

The Lord's Prayer backwards goes back to the parody Black Masses recorded from the 7th century forward. I do not believe that it's worth the effort to try to strip that much history, and the resulting egregore, from it, if it's even possible to do so. It comes with a lot of baggage. We're talking about Huson's ritual. He's a very specific type of practitioner.

 

I did the ritual, myself, and nothing of the sort happened. I'm doing great as a matter of fact! Couldn't be better.

 

Good for you. Congrats.

 

I wouldn't expect lightening to strike - wherever you happened to be when you did the ritual. I don't think anyone really does.

Anara to RG

for the record-you did the ritual and you know nothing bad happens- I wasn't even talking to you, actually.

 

There's a lot of that going on in this thread LOL

 

She knows nothing bad happens? And you know this for certain because - more assumptions? She's going through a very difficult time. You are quite certain about what other people are thinking and what happens in the lives of others. Interesting.

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Hi Rose. Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad to hear you are not using fear mongering tactics to sway folks from doing the ritual in question after all, because that would surely be counterproductive in a witchcraft forum where we should all be free to discuss these things without being introduced to fear tactics on top of everything else we have to figure out on our individual paths.

 

Once again, the ritual is meant to simply help one deprogram from christian mentality (not necessarily saying "fuck you" to anyone). Its mostly a psychological thing and can be a very positive step for anyone who feels called to it. Not everyone will feel called to it and that's o.k too. Also, Rose is wrong, in that, it is something that only certain traditions will follow. You can be any kind of witch to do it that follows any kind of path....unless you are a variety of a "christian witch", obviously. Then that will probably be counterproductive to your own individual path. Your God won't like that, I'd assume. However, I will also say that supposed "baggage" coming along with the ritual is also not necessarily true. I carry around no baggage nor have I had any experiences with an egregore that is suspected of being attached to said ritual.

 

That's all I am really interesting in replying to, in reference to your post. I do hope you have a good day and I look forward to talking in other threads on other subjects.

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I think it's best if we just stop. I'm getting tired of you twisting my words and adding to them.

Also, Rose is wrong, in that, it is something that only certain traditions will follow.

 

I never said that.

 

But there are certain traditions that incorporate it.

 

 

 

I don't know what your hang up is with 'fear mongering tactics' or trying to scare people out of doing anything. It's completely accurate to say that a god that brags about being a vengeful dick is a vengeful dick. It's one of the reasons that people leave Christianity. It's a commonly accepted ritual. It doesn't always work out well.

 

 

However, I will also say that supposed "baggage" coming along with the ritual is also not necessarily true. I carry around no baggage nor have I had any experiences with an egregore that is suspected of being attached to said ritual.

 

No one, certainly not me, is denying that this was your personal experience with this. It is a pretty standard accepted thing in the occult world. Not everyone experiences these things. You had a very positive experience. Not everyone does.

 

I spoke about my own choices and decisions regarding this ritual. Why is that any less acceptable than yours?

 

You did this as a psychological exercise. RG did this to formally break her former Oaths. That's opposite ends of the spectrum as for why. And like everything else, what you put into it, why you do it, how, it all changes the experience.

You can be any kind of witch to do it that follows any kind of path....unless you are a variety of a "christian witch", obviously. Then that will probably be counterproductive to your own individual path. Your God won't like that, I'd assume.

 

LOLOL that's funny :cool_witch:

 

He doesn't like witches or spellcraft either. I don't think what He likes or doesn't is all that important of a consideration :roflhard:

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Yes, Ma'am. This really does belong in a different thread.

 

 

 

Coming across this article again is quite timely for this thread. I think it's an excellent write up on the mechanics of hedgewitchery, astral travel, etc. These things can be so difficult to put into words and the author is good at doing that.

 

Walking Between Worlds http://sarahannelawless.com/2010/06/18/walking-between-worlds/

Edited by RoseRed

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Anara & RoseRed:

ENOUGH! Either keep your comments to the OP or shut the fuck up.

 

ok, MW. Sounds good to me.

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Coming across this article again is quite timely for this thread. I think it's an excellent write up on the mechanics of hedgewitchery, astral travel, etc. These things can be so difficult to put into words and the author is good at doing that.

 

Walking Between Worlds http://sarahannelawless.com/2010/06/18/walking-between-worlds/

 

The following is from the 1st paragraph:

 

"...The ability to walk between worlds is found in both witchcraft and shamanism as well as ancient Pagan religions (especially those with ecstatic cults). It is experiential and cannot be taught to someone without the innate ability. It is something either you can do or cannot do. This is not folk magic - not everyone can walk between worlds. Certain factors predispose ability such as being caul-born, being born with the second-sight, a traumatic experience or near-death experience, being chosen by the spirits and granted the ability, and such-like".

 

From what I've read on Shaman Sickness, this ties in with that - certain people being called to Shamanism. So I'm assuming there are certain people who are called toward hedgecrossing?

 

The second question is in regard to the third paragraph - Crossing in the Body: When you cross in your body, you have "a foot in both worlds". She states that "Your soul is still in your body but all your senses are in the otherworld..."

 

My question is, do you still sense things in this world as well? During the meditation journey - I don't remember if I could sense anything in this realm or not. That one was well-defined. I was pulled in rather quickly. But the journey I had between the wakeful/sleep state, I swear I could feel a pain in my leg in this realm, but not in the otherworld.

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My question is, do you still sense things in this world as well?

 

It depends. When I use herbs to cross over, it seems that I am completely gone from my body and this "reality": every single sense is in the Other. When I don't do herbs, typically my senses seemed dulled in the Other and I may be vaguely aware of my earthly physical environment/body.

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It depends. When I use herbs to cross over, it seems that I am completely gone from my body and this "reality": every single sense is in the Other. When I don't do herbs, typically my senses seemed dulled in the Other and I may be vaguely aware of my earthly physical environment/body.

 

That's interesting - the difference with herbs and without. I've never used anything before so I'm sure if I'd have the same reaction or not. It makes sense, seeing that you're in both realms at the same time, that you senses would be dulled in both realms as well.

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From my personal experience, I agree that the method of crossing effects the entire trip. I've used various herbs and things, as well as disciplines of one type or another. I like knowing that I have a little control over the intensity. There are bridges that I haven't crossed in the last decade, because I may at any moment need to return to waking consciousness for parental duties. Mom doesn't have eight consecutive hours to spend... on anything, really.

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I'm going to buy the Witches' Flying Ointment next week to see what benefit I get from it.

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The following is from the 1st paragraph:

 

"...The ability to walk between worlds is found in both witchcraft and shamanism as well as ancient Pagan religions (especially those with ecstatic cults). It is experiential and cannot be taught to someone without the innate ability. It is something either you can do or cannot do. This is not folk magic - not everyone can walk between worlds. Certain factors predispose ability such as being caul-born, being born with the second-sight, a traumatic experience or near-death experience, being chosen by the spirits and granted the ability, and such-like".

 

 

I don't know if I agree with the supposition that there are specific predisposed "factors" to be able to do it (too much of "special snowflake-ness" in that idea for me), it reminds of that idiotic list she wrote about what makes a witch. I will be the first person to hold my hand up and say that I have had and still do in some cases, extreme difficulty in crossing the hedge. I wasn't caul-born, or had a near death experience - or any of that type of thing (though I was 8 weeks premmie) so like any other person, I've had to work at it. And it in no way negates the extremely powerful experiences I have had while doing so. It has changed my perspective on a lot of things - I'm not even sure I could describe what it is that I've experienced. I am a hedge witch - did I feel a call to it? Not to start with, it was more of a natural progression of my path, I started over there and ended up here but my practice is heavily based in the Green which includes the use of and interaction with herbs, land spirits, Chthonic beings I can't even put a name to and a deeper understanding of the currents in the earth and how we're connected.

 

I use herbs sometimes, other times not. Actually one of my most powerful experiences was being yanked into the Otherwold while having a bath (Clary Sage and Lavender scented the water - not for any metaphysical reason but for relaxation reasons), I wasn't prepared, I wasn't even necessarily thinking about it but those that had something to say wanted to say it there and then. Got tonsillitis for like 4 weeks after that - though I do think my rather cute toddler nephew was in part responsible for that. So I think everyone's experiences differ and everyone's approach is all rather individual but I do wish you luck with the flying ointment!

Edited by Stacey

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This is such an interesting thread. I know it's a couple of years old but my first shamanic journey two guides appeared to me in the form of birds who became human and took a human form. After that first journey I only ever see human figures in the middle world when searching for info or healing or when I saw a spirit in the upper world. I never see humans in the lower world, it's a very different landscape there and my guide always has an animal form.

 

Aine I think at the start you talked about digging into the ground. When I read it I thought it was very shamanic - we were taught to find the entrance into the earth to go to the lower world. I only did a taster journey to meet my guide at a workshop, then did a lot of work on my own which made it harder. Entering the earth was difficult - I could get in but never seemed to come out. I got bogged down at the tunnel stage. In the end it was a guide or shadow self who helped me. She literally threw me down inside a tree trunk and I popped straight out in the lower world. For me the tunnel was an obstruction and it helped when I was dropped straight down in. I do believe this was help from spirit and I have an affinity for this sort of work so I've had more training since. So while I believe these are skills open to all people to some degree, I do believe that this is where some people have natural abilities, just as others have a green thumb or a talent for mediumship.

 

I never take substances to enter the otherworld - just drumming. I tried mugwort once out of curiosity and it just made me feel sleepy. For me I believe that my guide spirit helps me work in this way. I just wish he would help me keep plants alive as I love herbalism but can't keep my plants thriving! :carrot:

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