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Tuuli

Saturn Retrograde!!!

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Just wondering, how is everyone is dealing with the Saturn retrograde? I've been handling it fairly well but I'm afraid of what may pop out. For those that don't know, when Saturn retrogrades it is basically a time where karma is double strength. Saturn is the divine judge of all wrong doing, so what this retrograde does is bring to light all the unsavory things that you've been doing. So if you've been stealing from someone, lying to/about someone, being a backstabber, cheating on someone, unless you have a special connection to the spirits of Saturn you're getting caught. Luckily I don't do those types of things and I work too much to have time for those things.

 

However, I smoked a tiny bit of pot (first time in two years) with a friend who was peer pressuring me this past Saturday. I told my boss I would be late (I make my own hours so it's fine) And I went to a late night movie. Soon after I got there the pot kicked in and then my bosses boss walks up and says shouldn't you be at work right now?! :ohmy: In my pot induced haze, I completely missed the point and said: "But...But I'm watching the midnight movie". And he just looked at me like I was crazy lol!

 

Also, there is a donation box at our job, when I was super broke I would be a little bad and grab a few bucks out of it. I don't think my boss knows it was me (and I really wasn't the only one) but he did bring it up and he put a new lock on it!

 

There are good things though. Another friend and I definitely have strong feelings for one another but we haven't been able to communicate that. With the Saturn retrograde it's getting harder and harder to hide how we feel. :wink:

This is also a time that we are the most obsessed with time and the future. So basically because Saturn is the divine oppressor, this time is challenging us to cleanse ourselves of our little wrong doings and stop doing them. If we can do that Saturn will open the gates to grand success. If you don't 'repent' and get your shit together not only will it give you the smack down, it will make you feel like time was turned back and you're starting from where you began!

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NOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

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If one were to believe in "karma" then wouldn't that mean that your good deeds were multiplied as well?

 

I, for one, don't particularly believe in it. However, I can see how things "coming to the surface" would be an important aspect of retrograde Saturn since the deity from which it takes its name is closely tied to the underworld due to the act of placing seeds in the ground. I'm interested to see what other people think about this topic. I'm probably mildly affected by it but I have Saturn in my first house along with Pluto and have a very tight and close relationship with things dealing with the concept of the underworld. If anything I'm probably quite moody like I am during most retrogrades.

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I'm not the best person for giving astrological advice, but I'll give it a go, as Saturn retrogrades hits me hard.

 

To my experience, retrograde Saturn can be a hugely shitty time. Everything work-related goes much more slowly than it should, and it's a time where old things re-emerge to the surface and need to be dealt with. People who suffer from cyclical depressions and anxieties probably won't feel that well. Productivity is slowed, and there is a danger to get lost in the the small things, the routines or beliefs of daily life, and to be stuck in over-thinking and reflection. Saturn is a slow, heavy planet, and the worst thing one can do is fight it.

It is rather an opportunity to dig into unresolved matters, or to finally take the time to deal with a deep-rooted concern or problem.

 

Re. karma, I don't believe in it either.

I don't even know if I believe in reincarnation, but I do believe that if there are things unresolved, it is more likely they will bother during a Saturn retrograde.

 

Aria

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Yay! Someone responded to my first topic! lol!

 

It always confuses me when people who claim to be magicians say they don't believe in karma. As witches, we manipulate the subtle energies of the universe. We are physical manifestations of karma, we've just risen above the pendulum swing and become causers instead of effects. Cause and effect is a basic universal law that no being can completely avoid, no matter how spiritually evolved. Regardless of what one believes it's still there.

 

If one were to believe in "karma" then wouldn't that mean that your good deeds were multiplied as well?

 

Yes, I believe good deeds would be multiplied as well.

 

 

it's a time where old things re-emerge to the surface and need to be dealt with.

 

I could totally be wrong but I interpret that as being karmic.

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Cause and effect is one thing, but karma is generally a concept based in ideas of good and evil, paradigms created by each individual or dictated to them by religion. Often people on a left hand path reject such an idea,especially living a hedonistic lifestyle. Deeds considered evil by some can have rewards depending on the circumstances.

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The original Vedic idea of Karma actually has little to do with morality, and a lot more to do with the simple nature of how ones own actions defines ones own fate. If you throw a rock in a pond, you create ripples. If you desire something, and act on that desire, you create ripples in the universe and "debt" in your fate that eventually has to be repaid. This debt, in turn, keeps you tied to the wheel of reincarnation and this is why one of the main pursuits of Yoga is to burn off all of ones Karma and transcend Maya.

 

But the Norse or Germanic concept of Orlog, with the Norns and Wyrd, is usually a much better and clearer example of this process than the new age idea of Karma or even the Vedic version with all its symbolism. It doesn't matter to Fate whether you desire to kill someone or you desire to save someone's life - both create Orlog or Karma, and thus both have consequences. Every decision, regardless of the moral value somebody prescribes, has consequences. Some better, some worse, but Fate isn't concerned with human moral values.

 

 

 

~:Shin:~

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Just wondering, how is everyone is dealing with the Saturn retrograde? I've been handling it fairly well but I'm afraid of what may pop out. For those that don't know, when Saturn retrogrades it is basically a time where karma is double strength. Saturn is the divine judge of all wrong doing, so what this retrograde does is bring to light all the unsavory things that you've been doing. So if you've been stealing from someone, lying to/about someone, being a backstabber, cheating on someone, unless you have a special connection to the spirits of Saturn you're getting caught. Luckily I don't do those types of things and I work too much to have time for those things.

 

However, I smoked a tiny bit of pot (first time in two years) with a friend who was peer pressuring me this past Saturday. I told my boss I would be late (I make my own hours so it's fine) And I went to a late night movie. Soon after I got there the pot kicked in and then my bosses boss walks up and says shouldn't you be at work right now?! :ohmy: In my pot induced haze, I completely missed the point and said: "But...But I'm watching the midnight movie". And he just looked at me like I was crazy lol!

 

Also, there is a donation box at our job, when I was super broke I would be a little bad and grab a few bucks out of it. I don't think my boss knows it was me (and I really wasn't the only one) but he did bring it up and he put a new lock on it!

 

There are good things though. Another friend and I definitely have strong feelings for one another but we haven't been able to communicate that. With the Saturn retrograde it's getting harder and harder to hide how we feel. :wink:

This is also a time that we are the most obsessed with time and the future. So basically because Saturn is the divine oppressor, this time is challenging us to cleanse ourselves of our little wrong doings and stop doing them. If we can do that Saturn will open the gates to grand success. If you don't 'repent' and get your shit together not only will it give you the smack down, it will make you feel like time was turned back and you're starting from where you began!

 

This is so interesting! During this period I have been experimenting with a mental paradigm where time does not exist and each moment is eternity. I wonder if it is related? Yesterday I also did a ritual for letting go and accepting change with a close friend.

 

It always confuses me when people who claim to be magicians say they don't believe in karma. As witches, we manipulate the subtle energies of the universe. We are physical manifestations of karma, we've just risen above the pendulum swing and become causers instead of effects. Cause and effect is a basic universal law that no being can completely avoid, no matter how spiritually evolved. Regardless of what one believes it's still there.

 

"Real" karma is a complex Eastern philosophy that cannot simply be reduced to cause and effect. Cause and effect is a real thing, but I have trouble seeing how the religious Buddhist concepts concerning cause and effect must be accepted as a universal truth.

 

 

Buddhists believe the cause of Karma is ignorance and craving, so I wouldn't agree that witches have become ignorance itself! There are also like, twelve different kinds of karma in Buddhist philosophy, which we can't erase and still expect to have a clear understanding of what karma is.

 

I like Shinichi's comment about Orlog. I believe all is interwoven, but I'm just plain not Buddhist and I plain don't see how karma should be an accepted constant for witches.

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I could see the term Karma being used for lack of a better term for the constant cause-and-effect-you-now-need-to-deal-with-this-shit-you-created.

 

which would very much be a constant monkey-on-the-back for witches, since they are constantly moving energy around, for better or for worse.

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I don't 'buy' into Karma. I don't think there is such a thing as a universal tab which demands payment either. If Saturn is up against anything it's shoddy work. If you're going to commit a crime do it well- don't leave any loose ends. & before you start any new project tidy up that mess you made earlier. Shesh.

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I could see the term Karma being used for lack of a better term for the constant cause-and-effect-you-now-need-to-deal-with-this-shit-you-created.

 

which would very much be a constant monkey-on-the-back for witches, since they are constantly moving energy around, for better or for worse.

 

I still can't help but think there has to be a better term for cause and effect than 'karma'. Because karma represents so much more than simple cause and effect, and equating the two is a bastardization of what karma really is. I feel it is misappropriation of a cultural and religious term. I feel we already have a term for what you are speaking of, 'cause and effect'. That is a simple and concrete idea that I do not think needs to be conflated with intricate religious beliefs. I agree with Pikku, I do not believe there is a tally sheet in the sky that will cause me to birth sick children if I don't pay my taxes. But I do believe that if I drink like a fish while pregnant that poor baby doesn't have a chance. That is cause and effect, not karma.

 

I also believe that everyone is moving energy around, all the time! I see magic not as being the only way to move energy, but a way to do it more directly. Like fiddling with the Matrix coding. I think that is a very interesting discussion but a bit off topic I'm afraid.

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Yay! Someone responded to my first topic! lol!

 

It always confuses me when people who claim to be magicians say they don't believe in karma. As witches, we manipulate the subtle energies of the universe. We are physical manifestations of karma, we've just risen above the pendulum swing and become causers instead of effects. Cause and effect is a basic universal law that no being can completely avoid, no matter how spiritually evolved. Regardless of what one believes it's still there.

 

 

Yes, I believe good deeds would be multiplied as well.

 

 

I could totally be wrong but I interpret that as being karmic.

 

 

Because not everyone who practices witchcraft follows the dogma and/or philosophies of religion(s). Karma is not merely the "do unto others" and/or "Golden Rule" regarding how people misuse the concept of Karma in our society. It is not as simple as the physical laws of cause and effect. Not everyone believes in a god/deity and/or reincarnation. Therefore, it is not a universal truth for everyone- if you mean to imply that Karma is a natural law regardless of what one believes. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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I still can't help but think there has to be a better term for cause and effect than 'karma'. Because karma represents so much more than simple cause and effect, and equating the two is a bastardization of what karma really is. I feel it is misappropriation of a cultural and religious term. I feel we already have a term for what you are speaking of, 'cause and effect'. That is a simple and concrete idea that I do not think needs to be conflated with intricate religious beliefs. I agree with Pikku, I do not believe there is a tally sheet in the sky that will cause me to birth sick children if I don't pay my taxes. But I do believe that if I drink like a fish while pregnant that poor baby doesn't have a chance. That is cause and effect, not karma.

 

I also believe that everyone is moving energy around, all the time! I see magic not as being the only way to move energy, but a way to do it more directly. Like fiddling with the Matrix coding. I think that is a very interesting discussion but a bit off topic I'm afraid.

 

 

Causality

Although I still don't see what's wrong w/simply calling it "cause and effect", lol

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Yay! Someone responded to my first topic! lol!

 

It always confuses me when people who claim to be magicians say they don't believe in karma. As witches, we manipulate the subtle energies of the universe. We are physical manifestations of karma, we've just risen above the pendulum swing and become causers instead of effects. Cause and effect is a basic universal law that no being can completely avoid, no matter how spiritually evolved. Regardless of what one believes it's still there.

 

Please don't be confused, it's quite easy, really.

Karma is an Eastern concept, which may have a variety of meanings and interpretations (also in Eastern religions).

I was born in Southern Europe, and the witchcraft that I've come to know does not contain any idea of karma.

There are many forms of withcraft and magic around the world that do not include ideas of karma. Then if for you karma is a synonym for cause and effect... well, you are obviously free to believe in whatever universal laws please you, but guess what: not everybody does. Crazy, right?

 

 

I could totally be wrong but I interpret that as being karmic.

 

I interpret it as 'not being good at managing one's own shit'. Points of views.

 

Re Saturn retrograde, the original subject of the topic, I recently came across the use of planetary seals to halt the retrograde effects of planets.

Does anyone have knowledge/experience of this?

 

Aria

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Please don't be confused, it's quite easy, really.

well, you are obviously free to believe in whatever universal laws please you, but guess what: not everybody does. Crazy, right?

 

No need to be facetious Aria. I'm actually not the least bit confused and I would never claim that everyone should think like me or believe what I believe. I'm most certainly not that ignorant, I'm just stating my case. I just got some free time and decided to look up the definitions of the words I'm using to ensure proper use.

 

kar·ma

noun

noun: karma

1.The sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences

 

informal

destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

 

Also

 

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual.

 

I believe karma and cause and effect to be (not entirely but pretty much) the same concept. The idea that an energy harnessed and released into the universe will eventually come back to the causer (because, you know, that silly all-things-being-connected and all things in the universe from human life to moon phase being cyclical thing) is not so far removed for me. I think when we hear karma, we associate it with evangelical pastors warning us of sin & hellfire and tight ass-ed wiccans shoving the three fold law down our throats and we clam up into little defensive witch balls (see what I did there :tongue:). I'm not spreading religious dogma, what I'm saying is actually pretty straight forward. Every action (not just those of a magical nature) generates a force of energy that returns to us.

 

That's not to say that very bad action will lead to a bad reaction. Sometimes a curse is warranted and will lead to the safety and peace of the curser. An unwarranted blessing may, in a round about way, bring about terrible effects.

 

But the original topic was the Saturn retrograde lol!

 

Re Saturn retrograde, the original subject of the topic, I recently came across the use of planetary seals to halt the retrograde effects of planets.

Does anyone have knowledge/experience of this?

 

Aria

Barsa and I are currently working through the seven spheres project by Rufus Opus so when and if we get to Saturn, we'll let you know. :smile:

 

Thanks for responding everyone! I've never belonged to any online forum so this is oddly exciting for me lol!

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. I think when we hear karma, we associate it with evangelical pastors warning us of sin & hellfire and tight ass-ed wiccans shoving the three fold law down our throats and we clam up into little defensive witch balls (see what I did there :tongue:).

 

 

Actually, I don't associate the word karma with either of those. It's an Eastern concept that I don't fully understand from the cultural perspective.

 

That was cute.

 

An unwarranted blessing may, in a round about way, bring about terrible effects.

 

 

Yeah, no shit. Tell me about it.

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No need to be facetious Aria. I'm actually not the least bit confused

 

I don't think I was being facetious, you are the one who admitted being confused.

 

kar·ma

noun

noun: karma

1.The sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences

 

informal

destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

 

Also

 

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual.

 

I believe karma and cause and effect to be (not entirely but pretty much) the same concept. The idea that an energy harnessed and released into the universe will eventually come back to the causer (because, you know, that silly all-things-being-connected and all things in the universe from human life to moon phase being cyclical thing) is not so far removed for me. I think when we hear karma, we associate it with evangelical pastors warning us of sin & hellfire and tight ass-ed wiccans shoving the three fold law down our throats and we clam up into little defensive witch balls (see what I did there :tongue:). I'm not spreading religious dogma, what I'm saying is actually pretty straight forward. Every action (not just those of a magical nature) generates a force of energy that returns to us.

I don't think one line of dictionary definition is enough, nor the best reference, for studying religious and philosophical concepts, especially old and debated ones like karma.

And, as you will know, Karma is not just 'every energy will come back to you', but more 'if you do good, you'll receive good in this and other lives, if you do bad you'll receive bad'. It may go even as far as to determine how you are born into the next life (remember the Indian caste system).

 

I do believe that 'everything is connected', but this does not imply that there is some kind of law for which everything returns to you. I don't think it works that way.

Of course there are always consequences to actions. However, I believe that such consequences come from manipulating and working with energies right away, rather through some form of universal retribution. As I wrote somewhere else, if you wanna give someone nightmare, you'll have to go get those nightmares somewhere. If you wanna hurt someone, you'll be raising, manipulating and directing energies and materials that are not pleasant - and this will affect you.

In short, every time you lit a fire you run the risk of getting burnt. Is this the universe following some sort of recycling law, or is it just the nature of the actions you're involved in?

 

I think that some religious concepts exist to address some fundamental human questions and to regulate social norms. Karma, to me, is a way of justify injustice or to make people bear difficult life. Why does that rich, powerful man never pay for his evil action? 'No worry dear, karma will finally get to him'.

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No need to be facetious Aria. I'm actually not the least bit confused and I would never claim that everyone should think like me or believe what I believe. I'm most certainly not that ignorant, I'm just stating my case. I just got some free time and decided to look up the definitions of the words I'm using to ensure proper use.

 

kar·ma

noun

noun: karma

1.The sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences

 

informal

destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

 

Also

 

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual.

 

I believe karma and cause and effect to be (not entirely but pretty much) the same concept. The idea that an energy harnessed and released into the universe will eventually come back to the causer (because, you know, that silly all-things-being-connected and all things in the universe from human life to moon phase being cyclical thing) is not so far removed for me. I think when we hear karma, we associate it with evangelical pastors warning us of sin & hellfire and tight ass-ed wiccans shoving the three fold law down our throats and we clam up into little defensive witch balls (see what I did there :tongue:). I'm not spreading religious dogma, what I'm saying is actually pretty straight forward. Every action (not just those of a magical nature) generates a force of energy that returns to us.

 

 

 

I don't think Aria was being facetious. I think she's trying to make a point that you're missing.

Notice the word "Sanskrit" after one of your definitions? Yeah that's bc the concept of Karma and the word itself has a meaning within the Hindu religion (as well as few other Eastern ones as others in this thread have already mentioned) and is where the word originated.

 

 

Also, every definition you acquired from Wikipedia and Google implies a concept/train of thought/abstract idea, not a black and white concrete interpretation, that still requires the belief in something in which not everyone believes.

 

For example,

 

God

noun

  1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
  2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
    *Source- Google

capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as

 

a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.

 

b: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

*Source- Merriam Webster

 

 

 

Just because a word is defined doesn't make it a universal truth. It does make it appear like you are trying to say that Karma is a universal truth, regardless of whether one believes it exists, just like my example of the definition of "God" (which is not a universal truth either and would even cause quite a bit of debate just between the definitions I cited). Not everyone believes in fate or reincarnation, which is what your first two definitions describe.

 

After all, you did say- "it always confuses me when people who claim to be magicians say they don't believe in Karma.....Regardless of what one believes it's still there". So with all due respect, you appear to have contradicted yourself.

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Please don't be confused, it's quite easy, really.

Karma is an Eastern concept, which may have a variety of meanings and interpretations (also in Eastern religions).

I was born in Southern Europe, and the witchcraft that I've come to know does not contain any idea of karma.

There are many forms of withcraft and magic around the world that do not include ideas of karma. Then if for you karma is a synonym for cause and effect... well, you are obviously free to believe in whatever universal laws please you, but guess what: not everybody does. Crazy, right?

 

 

 

I interpret it as 'not being good at managing one's own shit'. Points of views.

 

Re Saturn retrograde, the original subject of the topic, I recently came across the use of planetary seals to halt the retrograde effects of planets.

Does anyone have knowledge/experience of this?

 

Aria

 

 

I don't have personal experiences using the seals to halt retrograde effects, but I have heard of it Aria. I'll have to look through my notes and maybe some of my books bc I know I've heard of this concept, I just can't recall off the top of my head where I learned/heard of it.

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To everything there is a season...this is the season of cleaning out my basement! I always say there's nothing in the heavens that's bad, it's all in how you use it.

 

Now if I don't clean out my basement, Saturn will make sure (through "bad luck") that I will have to work at something Saturn retrogradey. But my basement needs cleaning out anyhow, why not take advantage of this lovely Saturn energy? It's like Mars--Mars is easily satisfied through playing video games--Mars doesn't care. The trick is finding something that you like and the planet likes and the house likes to work with transits and retrogrades. Every planet demands its offerings, but they can be token offerings. Sometimes I think token offerings are even better, especially when paired with magical intent.

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The new age idea of 'karma' carries across many cultures and religions. You reap what you sow, what comes around goes around, the Golden Rule, the 3Fold Law, etc., ad nausea um.

 

Marrena - I really like the way you look at and use the current energies. Instead of getting blindsided by them you work with them. Very cool.

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Question for those who know more about the Saturn retrograde: we've been doing housework and it's been going very slowly, everything little thing that can go wrong and take forever to fix has, etc. Is it still successful to do workings for more rigid, disciplined, and successful work (Saturn influence) during a Saturn retrograde?

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I don't think so. It's a bad time to do technical shit when everything is going wrong.

 

This does explain the emotions I've been having. With so much big shit going on in my life - it seems to be a time of purging. Getting rid of the shit and the poison and maybe even fucking things up in the process.

 

I was talking to my oldest and dearest friend yesterday and asked her what she thought about the whole - to hex or not to hex thing I've got going on. She asked me what I wanted - I told her to fuck them up and break things. destruction. Some things are better off broken. (what a shamanic thing to say,. I'm not being sarcastic.)

 

I have my own measure of responsibility in these two situations. I think I've been taking measure of that.

 

I've been hanging out with magicians too much and getting hung up on moralities. They both knew I would unleash Hell upon them if they fucked me over. I don't want to continue walking around carrying it inside. I much prefer sunshine and flowers and planting all my beautiful plants that are coming in. That's where I'd rather be right now.

 

Purging and breaking shit. I can work with that. Or is Saturn retrograde something other than that?

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Question for those who know more about the Saturn retrograde: we've been doing housework and it's been going very slowly, everything little thing that can go wrong and take forever to fix has, etc. Is it still successful to do workings for more rigid, disciplined, and successful work (Saturn influence) during a Saturn retrograde?

 

 

keep in mind it's also mercury retrograde.

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