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Magick and Spell Casting: an uncomfortable thought


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#101 Autumn Moon

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 05:03 PM

AM, I was feeling dèja vu, so I find out we've had exactly the same discussion here :biggrin: http://www.tradition...workings/page-2

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Aria, yes I recall...but i thought I would let you do the searching :tongue:

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#102 Natty

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 02:03 PM

Same person, same thing all over again!!!!! Give some people an inch..... I must have a handle on the side of my head. You all can call me 'mug' lol!!!! What do I do now guys? X
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#103 Autumn Moon

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 01:58 AM

Same person, same thing all over again!!!!! Give some people an inch..... I must have a handle on the side of my head. You all can call me 'mug' lol!!!! What do I do now guys? X

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Human behaviour is hard to change. The person has been doing it for so long...so, ime, you have to keep pounding away at them with a working, and perhaps hitting from different angles, using planetary days and hours that suit your objective...and really important...take the handle off of your head, don't give an inch....in other words, don't take it!!! Your own actions or inaction will affect the efficacy of your spell work.

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#104 Natty

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 04:37 PM

Fantastic P.o.V Autumn. I have taken steps to block his phone number so I don't feel tempted to repeat past mistakes. I realise that this person has plenty of his own demons that he is dealing with l but I no longer want to be a part of that battle anymore. So I'm dusting myself off - a little spiritual spring clean so to speak and moving on.
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#105 Solanaceae

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 12:42 PM

And this one too.


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Some are born to sweet delight,

Some are born to endless night.

 

(Fragments from "Auguries of Innocence") William Blake


#106 citoyenne

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 01:39 AM

I read through this thread with a bit of a chuckle wondering how it came up again until I came to the end.

 

I admire your length of memory for old threads and your subtlety, Solanaceae.  :ninja:


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#107 Solanaceae

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:12 PM

Thank you Citoyenne. ;)


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Some are born to sweet delight,

Some are born to endless night.

 

(Fragments from "Auguries of Innocence") William Blake


#108 Valmerriss

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

That whole exchange was amazing. 


Edited by Valmerriss, 05 November 2017 - 10:35 PM.

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#109 Hawthorne

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

Earlier, someone wrote:

 

Although I cannot speak for the other on here, I am one who has been known to curse a young girl for her hair to fall out for so much as giggling at my outfit. This is the reality of some Traditional Witches, whom are welcome (as I have so far seen) on this forum. Why do we get irritated when someone appears to be pushing morals on us? because the whole world does, and we come to this little corner of the internet so as not to deal with that. That is the root of what you think are these "confrontations". Such as this paragraph is not a confrontation, i am merely educating you on the reality of your situation here. Of course your opinions are welcome, but so are ours, and when someone brings up the Rede or Karma, you will hear exactly what we think of it. 
 
Accountability—to oneself or to others—is alas, an unavoidable part of life. I don't mean in witchcraft. I mean everywhere.  There's an uncomfortable view permeating modern culture—and it IS a product of modernity, our ancestors were accountable to the tribe or to Nature, or to their gods or ancestors so to speak—that because Person A takes an ethical stance that means, ergo, that they must be "pushing their morals" onto others and this, ergo is a Bad Thing. Consequently, we're not allowed to discuss the ethical tipping points anywhere, because that would be judgemental. Where in the world is it Written that taking an ethical view point is a Bad Thing? I can think of plenty of Worse Things than being judgemental. And taking an ethical position and advancing an argument for it is not being judgemental. 
 
 
A good example (one shorn of witchiness so it's less emotive) was the intersectional feminist who told me I was wrong to push for legislation against Female Genital Mutilation because this was "part of someone elses culture, and that's being judgmental and racist).  
 
But there are others. 
 
"I'm not so keen on oranages, but I like apples and pears."
 
"How dare you judge and insult orange lovers! I'm irrirated and offended." 
 
Please, just please. 
 
Now I just meet the "but you're being judgemental" whining with:
 
"Yes. Now try and move me from my position with rational argument or grow a thicker skin. Or both. Both would be great!" 
 
We ALL take ethical or moral stances, we, each of us, make countless value judgments each and every day. And so starting on any trad path—or ANY path— to my mind means that you need to be ready to articulate your reasons for doing x or y or z. And be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions. Even taking the stance that "being judgemental of another's choices is a Bad Thing" is a value judgement in and of itself. 
 
So here's my "judgemental" take on the example given here. 
 
In my book (or grimoire) witchcraft requires maturity, and fucking about with power because someone giggled at my outfit isn't particularly mature, and says more about the curse-hurler than the cursed. Personally, I'd find it hard to fear someone who used power in such petty ways, because the pettiness betrays weakness, and weakness vulnerability and vulnerability is something ... if you were say, given to honouring the dark as well as the light—a witch can really, really fuck with. Also, BEING a trad witch, I know how dangerous it is to hurl curses willy-nilly. Rather than made that silly girl's hair fall out, I can produce the same effect in her (nervousness, unease, and a stop to the giggling) with a sweet and knowing smile. Less effort, less energy, and less pricy for moi. I'm all about the path of least resistance. Never use a nuclear bomb where a candle will suffice.  To that end, it's the equivalent of blowing back the negativity, I think this is yours. You should have it back. 
 
Ah, the price, the price, my pretties. Dear me. How do I know that the Giggler has not protected themselves in the Seen and Unseen with something that will bounce that energy right back at me? I don't believe exactly in the Rule of Three. Sometimes shit gets amplified, depending on what deals are struck or words are said, a bit like a capacitor storage (if borrowing from physics). I believe that what you send out comes back at you like the returning tide (it's in every cautionary faerytale after all, dinnae eat the food, dinnae steel the Selkie-skin, dinnae cut down the dryad's tree)—and if you've ever seen a tsunami wave, you don't fuck about causing earthquakes unless you absolutely have to and are willing to pay the piece of having your home destroyed.  So if ethics will not stop you from cursing a fool for giggling, perhaps a sense of self-preservation might. Hurling power about without respect, seems to me an excellent way of ending up having a Something wear your skin. 
 
 
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“Say not, “I have found the truth,” but rather, “I have found a truth.” Say not, “I have found the path of the soul.” Say rather, “I have met the soul walking upon my path.” For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.” — Khalil Gibran 

#110 Hawthorne

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:39 PM

 

Earlier, someone wrote:

 

Although I cannot speak for the other on here, I am one who has been known to curse a young girl for her hair to fall out for so much as giggling at my outfit. This is the reality of some Traditional Witches, whom are welcome (as I have so far seen) on this forum. Why do we get irritated when someone appears to be pushing morals on us? because the whole world does, and we come to this little corner of the internet so as not to deal with that. That is the root of what you think are these "confrontations". Such as this paragraph is not a confrontation, i am merely educating you on the reality of your situation here. Of course your opinions are welcome, but so are ours, and when someone brings up the Rede or Karma, you will hear exactly what we think of it. 
 
Accountability—to oneself or to others—is alas, an unavoidable part of life. I don't mean in witchcraft. I mean everywhere.  There's an uncomfortable view permeating modern culture—and it IS a product of modernity, our ancestors were accountable to the tribe or to Nature, or to their gods or ancestors so to speak—that because Person A takes an ethical stance that means, ergo, that they must be "pushing their morals" onto others and this, ergo is a Bad Thing. Consequently, we're not allowed to discuss the ethical tipping points anywhere, because that would be judgemental. Where in the world is it Written that taking an ethical view point is a Bad Thing? I can think of plenty of Worse Things than being judgemental. And taking an ethical position and advancing an argument for it is not being judgemental. 
 
 
A good example (one shorn of witchiness so it's less emotive) was the intersectional feminist who told me I was wrong to push for legislation against Female Genital Mutilation because this was "part of someone elses culture, and that's being judgmental and racist).  
 
But there are others. 
 
"I'm not so keen on oranages, but I like apples and pears."
 
"How dare you judge and insult orange lovers! I'm irrirated and offended." 
 
Please, just please. 
 
Now I just meet the "but you're being judgemental" whining with:
 
"Yes. Now try and move me from my position with rational argument or grow a thicker skin. Or both. Both would be great!" 
 
We ALL take ethical or moral stances, we, each of us, make countless value judgments each and every day. And so starting on any trad path—or ANY path— to my mind means that you need to be ready to articulate your reasons for doing x or y or z. And be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions. Even taking the stance that "being judgemental of another's choices is a Bad Thing" is a value judgement in and of itself. 
 
So here's my "judgemental" take on the example given here. 
 
In my book (or grimoire) witchcraft requires maturity, and fucking about with power because someone giggled at my outfit isn't particularly mature, and says more about the curse-hurler than the cursed. Personally, I'd find it hard to fear someone who used power in such petty ways, because the pettiness betrays weakness, and weakness vulnerability and vulnerability is something ... if you were say, given to honouring the dark as well as the light—a witch can really, really fuck with. Also, BEING a trad witch, I know how dangerous it is to hurl curses willy-nilly. Rather than made that silly girl's hair fall out, I can produce the same effect in her (nervousness, unease, and a stop to the giggling) with a sweet and knowing smile. Less effort, less energy, and less pricy for moi. I'm all about the path of least resistance. Never use a nuclear bomb where a candle will suffice.  To that end, it's the equivalent of blowing back the negativity, I think this is yours. You should have it back. 
 
Ah, the price, the price, my pretties. Dear me. How do I know that the Giggler has not protected themselves in the Seen and Unseen with something that will bounce that energy right back at me? I don't believe exactly in the Rule of Three. Sometimes shit gets amplified, depending on what deals are struck or words are said, a bit like a capacitor storage (if borrowing from physics). I believe that what you send out comes back at you like the returning tide (it's in every cautionary faerytale after all, dinnae eat the food, dinnae steel the Selkie-skin, dinnae cut down the dryad's tree)—and if you've ever seen a tsunami wave, you don't fuck about causing earthquakes unless you absolutely have to and are willing to pay the piece of having your home destroyed.  So if ethics will not stop you from cursing a fool for giggling, perhaps a sense of self-preservation might. Hurling power about without respect, seems to me an excellent way of ending up having a Something wear your skin. 
 
 
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“Say not, “I have found the truth,” but rather, “I have found a truth.” Say not, “I have found the path of the soul.” Say rather, “I have met the soul walking upon my path.” For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.” — Khalil Gibran 

#111 citoyenne

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 12:58 AM

Your fruit analogy is a straw man. You have a lot of great points to make but don't play it out like the people who disagree with you and feel the comparisons you've made between their traditional practices and rape as being judgmental are as foolish as saying that a dislike of oranges is judgmental of those who do like them. There is a lot more nuance than that. You owe it to yourself and the arguments that you're presenting to not stoop so low.

 

You seem like a really intelligent and thoughtful person with a lot to contribute on the matter of ethics and magic; I do honestly look forward to the viewpoints you may bring up however there is a bit of judgement being passed (ahem, rape, mutilation, etc), and you may feel that it is justified but don't downplay others' reactions/traditions/viewpoints as hysterical or unfounded. You are not the first moralizer on the boards, as far as I can see many of the previous ones were hasty with their judgment and pushy with their ideals. You don't have to go that way. Bring up your interesting viewpoints, please! I genuinely will be keeping an eye out for you because you interest me. But no straw men and don't belittle us.


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