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Magick and Spell Casting: an uncomfortable thought


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#21 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:16 PM

Shekinah... I think perhaps you had preconceived ideas about the members of this forum before truly exploring what it is to be a Traditional Witch.

Although I cannot speak for the other on here, I am one who has been known to curse a young girl for her hair to fall out for so much as giggling at my outfit. This is the reality of some Traditional Witches, whom are welcome (as I have so far seen) on this forum. Why do we get irritated when someone appears to be pushing morals on us? because the whole world does, and we come to this little corner of the internet so as not to deal with that. That is the root of what you think are these "confrontations". Such as this paragraph is not a confrontation, i am merely educating you on the reality of your situation here. Of course your opinions are welcome, but so are ours, and when someone brings up the Rede or Karma, you will hear exactly what we think of it.




^ Aye to that.

Morality is an individual practice and belief. Generalizations tend to not go well here.

RSKHFMY


#22 ArcticWitch

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:24 PM

Am I to believe most Witches on this site find it appropriate to harm others?

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I can't stress enough that this community is an aggregate of many different traditions. What I define as "harming others" may differ significantly from your own definition. When I was new here, I made the error of trying to relate to other members by using sweeping generalizations about witches.

On a personal note, I do think there are times that it is appropriate to harm others, but it's always in a defensive/protective context. But even if I did have a day when I decide to start hexing people without provocation, that's my choice and my choice alone.


And I did not quote from the Rede verbatim. At least no intention to do so.

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You are correct, you did not quote it verbatim. Instead, you stated your advocacy of it:

I do not think the Rede is applicable only to a Wiccan, some of it is good behavior that all should consider, Witches included.


If it is your prerogative to incorporate the Rede's ideology into your own practice, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned, it's neither right nor wrong because your Path has absolutely nothing to do with me or my own Path. But what I DO take issue with is the suggestion that your personal definition of "good behavior" can or should apply to any person on the planet, be they a witch or otherwise.



You certainly can attempt to slam the world if it lights your fire. It just doesn't light mine. After 5 years of killing in Vietnam I've had enough of harming.

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You still haven't explained to me why you perceive my asking pointed, succinct questions to be "slamming".

I've known a few Vietnam vets through the years- I noticed on your profile that you're a Florida pilot, so it would seem that we might possibly have run in the same circles at some point. :wink: There's something tangibly different about the servicemen who served in 'Nam, and a complete distaste for destruction against humans is a central theme I've observed. Even though I don't appreciate your putting military murder in the same category as throwing a curse on a rapist, I see where you're coming from a little better now and thank you for sharing a little more of your background.



Never said consequences were my priority. I simply stated a wise one might think about possible consequences to self and others. No intention to be confrontational just new on this forum and unaware of where many of you are coming from. That is why I am poising thoughts. Chill and back off of the hair trigger. There be no clips in my .223 :-)

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I'm confused. The entire content of your first post was pointing out consequences, and how consideration of consequences should be heavily incorporated into how and what we Practice in witchcraft.

If my "hair trigger" you mean the ability to sniff out bullshit, then yeah I have one helluva hair trigger. :wink: My .223 is a single-shot, so it appears we're both without clips.

Concerning credentials I mean no one here is qualified to say what they purport to practice is the only absolute truth and that there is nothing left worthy of their reflection.


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My perspective is that no one on the planet is qualified to say they have comprehension of absolute truth, because there IS not absolute truth.


I appreciate such things as bi-location have surely been discussed here but probably not many have seen it from inside the Intelligence Community. Don't care to know! that's fine. I won't tell.

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So instead of being antagonistic and egotistical, why not use that search feature I keep mentioning and post a reply to an existing thread about astral travel and entities?




Fear as a tool of protection? How about psychic shielding as an alternative.


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You are aware that there are many, many more aspects to witchcraft than projection, right? And with those different aspects come different tools?



If you have been targeted by malicious powerful critters perhaps you have been playing down the wrong rabbit hole.

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Your lack of general knowledge is showing. One does not have to seek out the rabbit hole to get pulled into it.


Anyhow... Sorry if I offended anyone. I extend an olive branch with a white flag attached. If no one asks for my insight I won't tell.

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You haven't offended me in the slightest. I relish opportunities to sharpen my debate skills, and you just so happened to offer an opportunity to do so. :smile:

Edited by ImamSua, 29 April 2015 - 08:27 PM.

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#23 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:33 PM

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Your lack of general knowledge is showing. One does not have to seek out the rabbit hole to get pulled into it.



Indeed. There are many incidents, mundane or otherwise, in which someone was attacked or approached without actually propagating the situation. For a mundane example, rape, muggings, robbery, the list goes on....

Playing it safe will not keep you safe. Only knowledge, experience, and cleverness give one the chance to be safe, and sometimes a little think called luck. Playing it safe may increase your chances, but shit still happens. Perhaps offense *is* the best defense sometimes? I do not know...

RSKHFMY


#24 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:34 PM

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We have been showing our true colors for much, much longer than you have been a member. The issue of ethics, personal paradigms, and magical cause-and-effect has been discussed ad nauseum over the years. Use the search box: it's your friend.


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​I can think of dozens of reasons, but here's a few. A person with an abusive spouse who needs to extricate themselves from a volatile, worsening situation- and can only do so by instilling a fear in their abuser. The family who lived in a formerly nice neighborhood, only to have their street overrun with heroin junkies and meth labs; there are few options to protect the kids and parents other than inspiring a primal fear in the equally primal ne'er-do-wells. The patient whose life was irrevocably damaged by a negligent doctor, and feels that they need to be seen as intimidating by future doctors to elicit the most beneficial healthcare.

There are countless practical, "real life" reasons why someone would want to be feared, but there are also motivations that you wouldn't "approve". Personally, I've taken pernicious magical actions based solely on visions and precognitive dreams, despite not knowing all of the details. Using esoteric data to enact "dark" magic may be unacceptable to followers of the Rede, but guess what? Every time, following those intuitions turned out to be the right thing to do. I'd much rather be feared than be liked, because being regarded with fear inspires a hell of a lot more honesty from people and non-humans than being "likable and approachable" does. Does this mean I want to be feared by everyone? Of course not. But fear certainly has its place, and can be a very useful tool.


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What makes you think that members of this forum haven't been the target of malicious and powerful beings? Why do you have the opinion that we haven't felt that all-encompassing, mind-numbing fear when in the presence of something much, much bigger and older and powerful than us? Did it ever occur to you that encounters with malicious, powerful beings could be the very reason why some of us got involved in witchcraft in the first place?

As far as "you would not enjoy the fear"- in life, some of the most enlightening experiences also happen to be the most scary, and subsequently the least "enjoyable". I know I'm not the only one here who is willing to endure some really unpleasant stuff just to gain knowledge.

Why are you applying your own set of ethics to what is and isn't "acceptable" behavior from a "superior being"? Don't you think it's myopic to hold non-human entities to the same standard of breathtakingly dynamic morals that permeate the culture of first-world, well-developed countries? In my experience, the Other have their own way of doing things, and I'm not insular enough to expect them to act the way I expect them to.

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I can't speak for the member who posted the "no proof" comment, but I inferred it to mean that the scientific community (and mainstream society, by proxy) has not officially proffered evidence and theories about astral dimensions, the Veil, etc.


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Some of us here have been a ways down the rabbit hole- so to speak- although I don't feel that any human has the capacity to absorb all of the Truths of our reality during the relatively short lifetime of a human.

Also, not all of us here cast circles: some do, some don't. This is a diverse, international community populated with people from all over the world, practicing all sorts of witchcraft traditions.



Yes, you can speak for me in this case bc that's exactly what I meant. ;) I thought that was pretty self explanatory....but thank you for the extra clarification.

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#25 Pikkusisko

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:34 PM

Shekinah, no one here will take kindly to being tested. It shows a lack of respect from your end. Benefit of the doubt and the time to read and get to know people on this forum would have answered any musings you had without having to go about building a trojan horse.
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'There's rules to this stuff. Wishing an event to be changes elements before and after it. Memories will be destroyed, babies will not be born, potential worlds could be evaporated by your wish.' - Prismo


#26 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:47 PM

All are free to think as you will. Got ya thinking and engaged in a productive chat and showing true colors. A Witch, if indeed you are able to wield power you are in a position to take advantage of others, sometimes necessary sometimes not so good. I do not think the Rede is applicable only to a Wiccan, some of it is good behavior that all should consider, Witches included. Why would one desire to be "feared"? If an all powerful being looked at you with malice In mind, that would not be a good thing for your welfare and you would not enjoy the fear. This in my mind would be unacceptable behavior on behalf of a superior being. This is the attitude that prevents most intelligent civilizations from surviving themselves. Some of our psychic operatives with the "Agency" have refused to participate in "remote influencing" because of personal ethics. Some military have refused to kill because of personal ethics. Ethics in these situations are problematic but people in command of globally destructive power need a sense of ethics for the preservation of the species. We certainly are free to do as we think appropriate and enjoy just rewards whatever they may be. It's a personal decision for sure.

Addressing the comment that there is "no proof of a spirit realm" I beg to differ. Having been an operative in the CIA Star Gate program bi-location is not a fantasy. Quantum entanglement is a fact and enables us to move and communicate outside of the limitations of light speed. As in the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Bach "our true nature exists everywhere at once across time and space". We primitives have no idea of the reality we are immersed in. A Witch who successfully casts a magick circle is, in effect, creating a star gate and should be able to experience walking between worlds and cavorting in the realm of spirit.

Well now I just think you're full of crap bc that program was declassified at least 20yrs ago and the official reports show there was nothing of use gathered during that operation and that it was terminated bc they believed it to be pseudoscience. Had you really been an operative, you would certainly know that right? And on the off chance that we (the U.S. public) were given incorrect information when the info was declassified, had you been an operative you would not be allowed to discuss that would you? My former best friend's father is a retired hacker for the USAF and is still subcontracted as a civilian and he's not allowed to go around telling people what he does, much less any info that's classified.

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#27 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:07 PM

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#28 Wexler

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:10 PM

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I finally get my witch card?? I'm so honored! :lol:

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'Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.'

'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.'

 

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#29 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:14 PM

I finally get my witch card?? I'm so honored! :laugh:

Fuck yeah!! :clap: Might as well get that out of the way right? :laugh:

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#30 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:38 PM

I almost pissed myself laughing at this!

RSKHFMY


#31 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:47 PM

Fuck you

Is it bad that this was my reaction to this reply?

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#32 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:47 PM

I almost pissed myself laughing at this!

The Oprah meme or thread?

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#33 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:49 PM

I'm assuming Wex was the one who +1 the meme- my day is complete, ha! :vhappywitch:
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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#34 ArcticWitch

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:55 PM

Nope, that was me. I haven't laughed that hard at a meme in a looooooong time. :high5:
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#35 travsha

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:05 PM

Not all witches on this forum harm others. I wont go out of my way to harm anyone, not even as revenge. Only way I would knowingly harm another would be in the last effort of protection or in a moment of weakness. I dont find myself in those situations though, so I get along fine without harming others.

You dont have to be into harming others to be accepted on this forum. You just have to not throw around judgement to others. I dont tell other people what their ethics should be or how they should act - so for the most part people get along with me. Even if I have my own ideals, I wouldnt feel right trying to push those on others or telling them how to view the world. No one likes being told what is right or wrong - that is an instant way to put up walls and barriers quick!

We all have our own life perspectives and I would say one ideal of this forum is supporting and valuing diversity. I think this may be why some people are feeling you are stepping on toes Shekinah. You got some harsh reactions back, and seemed to react to those reactions as well which brings more harsh reactions.... I could be wrong, but I think it mostly boils down to others feeling you took a superior stance or told them how they should view the world. Not saying that was your intent at all, but it seems to me that is how some posters in this thread felt. I guess this is a good example of consequences - choose your words carefully because they can effect peoples emotions and cause reactions you may not have intended.

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#36 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:07 PM

Nope, that was me. I haven't laughed that hard at a meme in a looooooong time. :high5:



Sweeeeet!! :high5: :eheheh: I couldn't help it- you know how we are about boasting "witch creds" :rolleyes: :wiccanpie:

I +1 everything you posted bc at least you took the time to articulate every facet of the discussion/debate. I don't have the patience today bc my bs meter is at its max.

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#37 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 10:21 PM

Not all witches on this forum harm others. I wont go out of my way to harm anyone, not even as revenge. Only way I would knowingly harm another would be in the last effort of protection or in a moment of weakness. I dont find myself in those situations though, so I get along fine without harming others.

You dont have to be into harming others to be accepted on this forum. You just have to not throw around judgement to others. I dont tell other people what their ethics should be or how they should act - so for the most part people get along with me. Even if I have my own ideals, I wouldnt feel right trying to push those on others or telling them how to view the world. No one likes being told what is right or wrong - that is an instant way to put up walls and barriers quick!

We all have our own life perspectives and I would say one ideal of this forum is supporting and valuing diversity. I think this may be why some people are feeling you are stepping on toes Shekinah. You got some harsh reactions back, and seemed to react to those reactions as well which brings more harsh reactions.... I could be wrong, but I think it mostly boils down to others feeling you took a superior stance or told them how they should view the world. Not saying that was your intent at all, but it seems to me that is how some posters in this thread felt. I guess this is a good example of consequences - choose your words carefully because they can effect peoples emotions and cause reactions you may not have intended.



Amen!
It's up to every single person to decide their personal set of ethics and their general sense of morality regardless of witchcraft. I think that every single witch's set of personal morality and/or ethics is usually transferred within their craft. Meaning they start out w/a set of certain beliefs, attitudes, ethics, etc. and they work their craft based upon their truth. Certainly many have changed some of these beliefs during their journey, but that could be said about life in general as well.

I'm having a hard time taking him seriously for a number of reasons- the CIA thing being one of them, the seemingly lack of understanding regarding ImamSua's well articulated replies, and/or lack of comprehension regarding mine and others' posts.

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I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#38 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:19 PM

In the standard model of physics (conservation of matter and energy and thermodynamics) nothing can be created or destroyed, only converted and there is always a price to be exacted for any manipulation of natural laws. In our practice of magick we should consider the unknown compensation that might need be paid for our manipulation of physical laws. There are no freebies in the physical or spirit realm. If unwilling to accept whatever compensation may come for some trivial act of magick perhaps we should reconsider the necessity of employing magick in each specific instance.
In Spell Casting consider that we are unable to see far enough into all possible futures to ascertain that we will harm none. Ramifications of our actions extend into infinity. As we evolve our command of magick we become subject to higher moral and ethical responsibility for all over which we have dominion.



I personally think your missing the idea that while energy can not be created or destroyed your ignoring the application of force upon a thing, energy or movement. So in that regard as magical users we attempt to excerpt more force and directed force upon an energy to achieve our desired results. The so called theory of a body in motion tends to stay in motion until acted until by an equal or more powerful force. The body in this instance being that of magical energy or what some would call elemental energy based upon magnetic's, electrical and thermal conducting I think is how its known. Granted Chaos factor sort of suggests that after a certain point the number of possibilities acting upon any object will increase until the outcome can no longer really be calculated or anticipated. Yet chaos is sort of removed from the equation by instilling defined points and visible indicators to show both progress and completion. Any in-depth working in my experience also having a termination or self destruct feature which is used to negate the affects of the chaos principle.

While I agree there are certain "Costs" to be applied to us in utilizing any movement that causes a reaction or change upon an energy I do believe it can be calculated or is understood. Granted using radiowave theory, a line is charged and current is applied to the line to generate a signal that shifts between two frequencies. That current then applied to a transmission device, our own bodies in most instances, and due to inbalances or capacities of the line we will experience a standing wave or feedback waves. Such that unless one truly fires and forgets energy will strike its target and a small amount will be reflected back along the line of transmission to the sender. Given enough energy, time, application that wave will potentially become a wave that bounces back and forth between target and transmitter. The so called negative return of curses, hexes and such due to their often requiring so much focus and concentration to bring them off successfully I believe.

Regarding morale and ethical issues both are social constructs and parameters used to define and constrain the populace. As such there really is no universal must do good or bad limitations that are imposed by the universe only those imposed by humanity. So what you (Collective usage) read as a limiter is only applied by your own conditioning. Yet the primordial self knows and accepts no such restrictions in what it will do to survive or ensure the survival of its lineage. We are both the thinking Ape like creature as well as the herd creature all at once and will behave as such.

While most of humanity will act in the stead of the herd creature and blindly follow the herds rules not all will. Some will be the Wolf who preys upon the herd and ensures its survival through exploiting the herds weakness and vulnerabilities imposed by their morality and ethics. Other's will be the so called Sheep Dog who will watch over the heard but is close enough to the Wolf that they will use the tactics and morality / ethics of the wolf to defend the herd they guard. The problem there though is it's often not that great of a leap to go from Sheep Dog to Wolf and feed off the herd you protect.

Of course all of this my own opinion and perspectives.

Edited by monsnoleedra, 29 April 2015 - 11:19 PM.

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#39 Michele

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:31 PM

I think that everything one does, magical or otherwise, has consequences we can never know. I ran out of plastic bags to tie up my garbage, so I threw it loose into the outside bin and didn't give it a second thought. The garbage truck picked it up this morning. Maybe it all went in the truck and that was the end of it. Maybe the wind blew a piece of plastic wrapper out and someone tripped on it and broke their neck, or maybe someone walking by stopped to pick it up and throw it away and that 3 second pause placed them out of the way of the hurtling truck with their name on it. Every act we do has a multitude of intended and unintended consequences that we can never fully know. There was a great movie about that - Sliding Doors with Gwenneth Paltrow(sp)...

I suppose it also depends on whether or not a person believes in destiny/fate.

M

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#40 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 11:48 PM

All are free to think as you will. Got ya thinking and engaged in a productive chat and showing true colors. A Witch, if indeed you are able to wield power you are in a position to take advantage of others, sometimes necessary sometimes not so good. I do not think the Rede is applicable only to a Wiccan, some of it is good behavior that all should consider, Witches included. Why would one desire to be "feared"? If an all powerful being looked at you with malice In mind, that would not be a good thing for your welfare and you would not enjoy the fear. This in my mind would be unacceptable behavior on behalf of a superior being. This is the attitude that prevents most intelligent civilizations from surviving themselves. Some of our psychic operatives with the "Agency" have refused to participate in "remote influencing" because of personal ethics. Some military have refused to kill because of personal ethics. Ethics in these situations are problematic but people in command of globally destructive power need a sense of ethics for the preservation of the species. We certainly are free to do as we think appropriate and enjoy just rewards whatever they may be. It's a personal decision for sure.

Addressing the comment that there is "no proof of a spirit realm" I beg to differ. Having been an operative in the CIA Star Gate program bi-location is not a fantasy. Quantum entanglement is a fact and enables us to move and communicate outside of the limitations of light speed. As in the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Bach "our true nature exists everywhere at once across time and space". We primitives have no idea of the reality we are immersed in. A Witch who successfully casts a magick circle is, in effect, creating a star gate and should be able to experience walking between worlds and cavorting in the realm of spirit.


Define the reed, that is the problem with assigning any moral or ethical parameter to it. Consider for many all the reed ever suggested or implied was that any action one takes will potentially return upon them via one of three possible paths of recourse. An action might return as an ethical situation which makes the person then analyze and face some conditioning being applied to them. It could return as a physical return where they say break a law and the law then charges them and enacts justice for their wrong doings. Not ensuring an ethical or morale return only a physical return. The return might take the form of a psychological and Spiritual / religious return which makes them question or cause them to take a given form of action.

So consider the person who robes the helpless. By taking from the weaker they suffer the spiritual / religious return which makes them question the ethics and morality of their belief system. Said belief system then imposes a potential cost upon their individual identity and social / cultural value system. Then that may inturn cause them to turn themselves in. To cause them to ask for forgiveness of some sort and make restitution for their actions. Society may catch them and extract justice from them or upon them for breaking the cultural rules. So one of three potential areas which may affect / effect the person individually, spiritually / religiously or social and culturally or some combination of any or all of them at once.

Fear is equally a powerful force and influencing factor. Many times fear is derived from the hesitation and consideration injected into a situation by the awareness that the one you are operating against is not only able to respond in a negative force but also willing to utilize such negative forces to do so. Not only utilize it but utilize it to the extreme degree and have the proficiency to do so. An aspect that is reinforced countless times when you observe and analyze the lore, mythology and eddas / sagas of many ancient systems and the pantheons of their divinities and semi-devine entities. Many times though such posturing and squawking about ones own abilities and what they can do serves more to sooth their own ego's vice actually being seen as a legitimate concern or threat. Sort of the adage of He who knows sayeth not and he who says knows not and it is better so.

The way you speak of the spirit plains indicates, to me anyway, you really have little to no idea of how they work. Especially in regards to the entities that can and will be found on them even if one only restricts the known plain concepts to Chthonic, Celestial and Earthy (physical). That model failing to consider theories where all time and possibility exists at once, the model where reality is stacked like tracks on a record or cd and we can potentially cross from dimension to dimension to dimension. None of that truly accepting the notion of multiple dimensions of reality where alternative universes exist where multi copies of our own lives are unfolding and moving all at once and given the right conditions we might experience multiple plains of reality all at once. The deju vu perspective where we know we've seen it because an alternate self matched our time line and we have their life memories and our own at the same time.

It also fails to consider the notion of Etheral, Astral, internal and external mental plains of reality and the transition between them. Especially regarding the mental landscape of the internal mind and the domain of the superself, the ego and id, the so called shadow self and its many aspects and especially the primordial self that is basically both barbaric and animalistic all at once. Any of which may take any form and appear not only in dream time, journey time, dream walking or within the confines of ones sacred space and constructs.

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