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Magick and Spell Casting: an uncomfortable thought


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#1 Guest_Shekinah_*

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 05:33 PM

In the standard model of physics (conservation of matter and energy and thermodynamics) nothing can be created or destroyed, only converted and there is always a price to be exacted for any manipulation of natural laws. In our practice of magick we should consider the unknown compensation that might need be paid for our manipulation of physical laws. There are no freebies in the physical or spirit realm. If unwilling to accept whatever compensation may come for some trivial act of magick perhaps we should reconsider the necessity of employing magick in each specific instance.
In Spell Casting consider that we are unable to see far enough into all possible futures to ascertain that we will harm none. Ramifications of our actions extend into infinity. As we evolve our command of magick we become subject to higher moral and ethical responsibility for all over which we have dominion.

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#2 travsha

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 05:55 PM

It's free to change energy though, so if you think about it that way..... Say someone sends you envy or anger - just take it and turn it into something wonderful! Someone sends you love and you can make wonderful things with that as well. Life sends you a crisis, and you can turn that into a lesson or an opportunity.... Energy is always coming your way for free, so it's up to you to decide what you contribute to that energy before you send it back out! (maybe I am over simplifying a bit, but hopefully the jist of what I am saying makes sense!)

Edited by travsha, 28 April 2015 - 09:02 PM.

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#3 Wexler

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 07:15 PM

I agree that everything has a price.
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#4 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 09:44 PM

I think with all the newer scientific discoveries emerging and the growing field of quantum mechanics, it's kind of presumptuous to assume what you're saying, with all due respect.

Also, piggybacking off of Travsha a bit, you seem to miss the point that not all spells involve literal manifestation and/or what you would call a "negative/harmful" exchange of energy.

Furthermore, if we cannot see into the future to know/how our spell adversely affected someone/something- this applies to not just spell work. It applies to living your life in general and EVERYTHING you do can have a potential negative outcome to another. I.E., I eat three square meals a day and somewhere a person in Somalia dies of hunger. You're online using a computer and posting on an internet forum, using electricity- and at this very moment there are thousands of people without running water, electricity, indoor plumbing, etc. I use toilet paper to wipe my ass and we have one less tree in the world. My friend gives birth to a newborn baby- another infant dies from complications. This is fucking life dude. By your own adherence to the physical laws of nature, should we constantly be thinking about every single thing we do and how it can/might/will affect something/someone else? I think most people would go crazy at the mere thought. Note- I'm not saying we shouldn't be more conscientious of our actions and how they affect others/the world, I'm just saying it's impossible to live your life w/o it having some type of adverse effect on another regarding the laws of physics.

Finally, for someone adhering to such scientific dogma, there's absolutely no proof of a spiritual realm. Who says there are no freebies? I'm seriously curious.... Since that's not a tangible thing, it's just based on empirical evidence at best. Sure most of us believe it exists, but how can you say for certain that there are no freebies in the spirit realm? Pardon me but this sounds awfully Wiccan to me.

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#5 Aria

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:10 AM

In the standard model of physics (conservation of matter and energy and thermodynamics) nothing can be created or destroyed, only converted and there is always a price to be exacted for any manipulation of natural laws. In our practice of magick we should consider the unknown compensation that might need be paid for our manipulation of physical laws. There are no freebies in the physical or spirit realm. If unwilling to accept whatever compensation may come for some trivial act of magick perhaps we should reconsider the necessity of employing magick in each specific instance.
In Spell Casting consider that we are unable to see far enough into all possible futures to ascertain that we will harm none. Ramifications of our actions extend into infinity. As we evolve our command of magick we become subject to higher moral and ethical responsibility for all over which we have dominion.


Like magick, I don't think natural laws, or the laws or physics, are ethic or moral. They just are.
The consequences that you get are not the result of some calculation, the calculation is the way we try to make sense of them (and sometimes, they seem right but they are wrong).
Now, if you want to lit a fire you have to consider the possibility that you will get burnt. If you build a nuclear power station, you have to consider the possibility that one day it may leak or fail tragically.

I don't believe much in the idea of 'returns' or karma, but I tend to believe that when you do something, it is difficult to avoid getting a bit of it too. If you are working evil on someone, you are working with emotions and power that will affect you in the first place. I don't think it is a matter of morals as much as it is a mere necessity to magical working.
To make someone have terrifying nightmare, you will need to get those nightmares somewhere - and that'll be likely yourself. It is not pleasant, and it can harm.

Where the ethical considerations come into play is in the decision of doing harm to someone. But I think that's valid in every aspect of life, regardless of the means.

Of course this whole reasonment would be different for working with spirits and familiars, who may have laws and ways of their owns.

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#6 Pikkusisko

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:26 AM

All magic comes with a price, dearie.

Or... maybe it's all super random, there are no consequences only luck, it's far too complex for us to entirely understand as living beings, and yet probably simpler and waaay more straightforward than we give it credit.

I really can't decide.

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#7 Caps

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 09:02 AM

"In Spell Casting consider that we are unable to see far enough into all possible futures to ascertain that we will harm none."


Per the topic title, is this something I should be feeling uncomfortable about? Perhaps someone following a dogmatic or religious approach to magic would, but I don't think you will find many of them here. Sure, there are "ethics and morals" involved, but those too are often defined by paradigms created by an individual or their belief system.

It isn't difficult to consider that metaphysical actions aren't required to obey the laws of physics, or laws of this realm completely. Cause ---> Effect is one thing, but even still that is scattershot at best. Creating something out of nothing? I don't think we're talking about making clay golems or magic beanpoles, those are fairy tales. One of the main things (in my opinion) that we deal with is intent...intent is created by the caster and sometimes what that is drawn from has no existence in the physical world.

If what you're referring to is the chaos theory idea of a butterfly beating its wings in California can cause a hurricane in Florida, well...that's what makes this fun and interesting isn't it?

"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

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#8 RoseRed

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 12:37 PM

My post yesterday got lost in cyberspace.

I'm not Wiccan nor do I follow the Rede. There's a reason that witches have been feared for millennia. Harm none? It's a pretty idea but not a realistic one. Morals and ethics? Who's exactly?

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#9 Guest_Shekinah_*

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:12 PM

All are free to think as you will. Got ya thinking and engaged in a productive chat and showing true colors. A Witch, if indeed you are able to wield power you are in a position to take advantage of others, sometimes necessary sometimes not so good. I do not think the Rede is applicable only to a Wiccan, some of it is good behavior that all should consider, Witches included. Why would one desire to be "feared"? If an all powerful being looked at you with malice In mind, that would not be a good thing for your welfare and you would not enjoy the fear. This in my mind would be unacceptable behavior on behalf of a superior being. This is the attitude that prevents most intelligent civilizations from surviving themselves. Some of our psychic operatives with the "Agency" have refused to participate in "remote influencing" because of personal ethics. Some military have refused to kill because of personal ethics. Ethics in these situations are problematic but people in command of globally destructive power need a sense of ethics for the preservation of the species. We certainly are free to do as we think appropriate and enjoy just rewards whatever they may be. It's a personal decision for sure.

Addressing the comment that there is "no proof of a spirit realm" I beg to differ. Having been an operative in the CIA Star Gate program bi-location is not a fantasy. Quantum entanglement is a fact and enables us to move and communicate outside of the limitations of light speed. As in the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Bach "our true nature exists everywhere at once across time and space". We primitives have no idea of the reality we are immersed in. A Witch who successfully casts a magick circle is, in effect, creating a star gate and should be able to experience walking between worlds and cavorting in the realm of spirit.

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#10 ArcticWitch

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 04:25 PM

Got ya thinking and engaged in a productive chat and showing true colors.

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We have been showing our true colors for much, much longer than you have been a member. The issue of ethics, personal paradigms, and magical cause-and-effect has been discussed ad nauseum over the years. Use the search box: it's your friend.

Why would one desire to be "feared"?

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​I can think of dozens of reasons, but here's a few. A person with an abusive spouse who needs to extricate themselves from a volatile, worsening situation- and can only do so by instilling a fear in their abuser. The family who lived in a formerly nice neighborhood, only to have their street overrun with heroin junkies and meth labs; there are few options to protect the kids and parents other than inspiring a primal fear in the equally primal ne'er-do-wells. The patient whose life was irrevocably damaged by a negligent doctor, and feels that they need to be seen as intimidating by future doctors to elicit the most beneficial healthcare.

There are countless practical, "real life" reasons why someone would want to be feared, but there are also motivations that you wouldn't "approve". Personally, I've taken pernicious magical actions based solely on visions and precognitive dreams, despite not knowing all of the details. Using esoteric data to enact "dark" magic may be unacceptable to followers of the Rede, but guess what? Every time, following those intuitions turned out to be the right thing to do. I'd much rather be feared than be liked, because being regarded with fear inspires a hell of a lot more honesty from people and non-humans than being "likable and approachable" does. Does this mean I want to be feared by everyone? Of course not. But fear certainly has its place, and can be a very useful tool.

If an all powerful being looked at you with malice In mind, that would not be a good thing for your welfare and you would not enjoy the fear. This in my mind would be unacceptable behavior on behalf of a superior being. This is the attitude that prevents most intelligent civilizations from surviving themselves.

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What makes you think that members of this forum haven't been the target of malicious and powerful beings? Why do you have the opinion that we haven't felt that all-encompassing, mind-numbing fear when in the presence of something much, much bigger and older and powerful than us? Did it ever occur to you that encounters with malicious, powerful beings could be the very reason why some of us got involved in witchcraft in the first place?

As far as "you would not enjoy the fear"- in life, some of the most enlightening experiences also happen to be the most scary, and subsequently the least "enjoyable". I know I'm not the only one here who is willing to endure some really unpleasant stuff just to gain knowledge.

Why are you applying your own set of ethics to what is and isn't "acceptable" behavior from a "superior being"? Don't you think it's myopic to hold non-human entities to the same standard of breathtakingly dynamic morals that permeate the culture of first-world, well-developed countries? In my experience, the Other have their own way of doing things, and I'm not insular enough to expect them to act the way I expect them to.

Addressing the comment that there is "no proof of a spirit realm" I beg to differ.

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I can't speak for the member who posted the "no proof" comment, but I inferred it to mean that the scientific community (and mainstream society, by proxy) has not officially proffered evidence and theories about astral dimensions, the Veil, etc.

We primitives have no idea of the reality we are immersed in. A Witch who successfully casts a magick circle is, in effect, creating a star gate and should be able to experience walking between worlds and cavorting in the realm of spirit.

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Some of us here have been a ways down the rabbit hole- so to speak- although I don't feel that any human has the capacity to absorb all of the Truths of our reality during the relatively short lifetime of a human.

Also, not all of us here cast circles: some do, some don't. This is a diverse, international community populated with people from all over the world, practicing all sorts of witchcraft traditions.

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#11 ArcticWitch

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 04:28 PM

Ah, missed one:

[...]bi-location is not a fantasy.

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Bi-location, etheric projection, and remote viewing are nothing new here. Again, I encourage you to use the search function or to pop into the chatroom sometime.

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#12 Guest_Shekinah_*

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:13 PM

Hmmm, A rather hostile gathering not at all interested in a friendly exchange of personal practices and experiences . Unfortunate that some "Witches" respond like a coven of vultures to pick the bones of anyone not on their personal path. You don't have to like or respond to anything I post, you are free to go your own way and do your own thing and totally ignore me. Whatever works for you have at it and enjoy. It is a tragedy to assume one knows it all. Looks like some here enjoy confrontation for the sake of confrontation,
I shall not entertain a vicious lust for blood. I don't see any impressive credentials among any of the rant raisers.

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#13 ArcticWitch

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 05:45 PM

Hmmm, A rather hostile gathering not at all interested in a friendly exchange of personal practices and experiences .

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For someone who purports to place consequences as a priority, I find it amusing that you seem to be shirking accountability for the provocative nature of your previous comments. :)

Since when are pointed questions perceived as "hostile"? I've also noticed that you haven't answered any of the questions I posed in my first response.

Unfortunate that some "Witches" respond like a coven of vultures to pick the bones of anyone not on their personal path.

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It is unfortunate indeed. So why did you write a post that disrespects traditions that do not espouse the "Harm ye none" philosophy? ;)

Looks like some here enjoy confrontation for the sake of confrontation,

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...says the person who made the first confrontational post. :rofl:

If your goal was to stir the pot to get an emotional reaction, I have to admit that I'm engaging in this discussion for pure entertainment. If you're willing to actually answer the questions posed in response to your posts, then I'll take you seriously and extend a little more respect. You haven't given me a reason to do that yet.

I don't see any impressive credentials among any of the rant raisers.

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I don't have any credentials, nor was I aware that I was apparently supposed to have an impressive "magical resumè" to engage in dialogue in this community. I'm just a simple country bumpkin who uses witchcraft for practical purposes.

(On a side note, I just had a hilarious mental image of how some entities would act if they approached me and I squawked "You can't do that to me! I have CREDENTIALS!")

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#14 travsha

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:12 PM

Sharing different opinions is good. No way we will ever all agree on the same ideals - but I think diversity is beautiful.

I dont really see any hostility here.... Maybe a little snarkiness, but this is a online forum for witches, so that seems like it should be expected...

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#15 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:21 PM

I don't see any impressive credentials among any of the rant raisers.



Credentials? This isn't a coven, this isn't an order, this is a forum. Credentials are not necessary to be a member on here, nor is it relevant to how much someone knows or how much ability/talent they have in their craft. If you're looking to only speak with people who have credentials then perhaps this is not the place for you.

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#16 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:41 PM

Also, I feel the need to add... the credentials you may have mean very little, if not absolutely nothing, here. We judge people based upon what they say, how they act, and how much they can prove themselves through time.

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#17 Guest_Shekinah_*

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:42 PM

Am I to believe most Witches on this site find it appropriate to harm others? Not the Witches I know in my neck of the woods. And I did not quote from the Rede verbatim. At least no intention to do so. You certainly can attempt to slam the world if it lights your fire. It just doesn't light mine. After 5 years of killing in Vietnam I've had enough of harming.
Never said consequences were my priority. I simply stated a wise one might think about possible consequences to self and others. No intention to be confrontational just new on this forum and unaware of where many of you are coming from. That is why I am poising thoughts. Chill and back off of the hair trigger. There be no clips in my .223 :-)
Concerning credentials I mean no one here is qualified to say what they purport to practice is the only absolute truth and that there is nothing left worthy of their reflection.
I appreciate such things as bi-location have surely been discussed here but probably not many have seen it from inside the Intelligence Community. Don't care to know! that's fine. I won't tell.
Fear as a tool of protection? How about psychic shielding as an alternative. From my experience on the killing fields, fear only breeds irrational behavior and unintentional collateral damage. If a thug fears you he will target you. Christians once burned Witches because they feared them and what their truth would do to the mythology they were pushing. The sniper in war is feared and most often targeted. If you have been targeted by malicious powerful critters perhaps you have been playing down the wrong rabbit hole.

Anyhow... Sorry if I offended anyone. I extend an olive branch with a white flag attached. If no one asks for my insight I won't tell.

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#18 Ravenshaw

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:48 PM

Am I to believe most Witches on this site find it appropriate to harm others? Not the Witches I know in my neck of the woods. And I did not quote from the Rede verbatim. At least no intention to do so. You certainly can attempt to slam the world if it lights your fire. It just doesn't light mine. After 5 years of killing in Vietnam I've had enough of harming.
Never said consequences were my priority. I simply stated a wise one might think about possible consequences to self and others. No intention to be confrontational just new on this forum and unaware of where many of you are coming from. That is why I am poising thoughts. Chill and back off of the hair trigger. There be no clips in my .223 :-)
Concerning credentials I mean no one here is qualified to say what they purport to practice is the only absolute truth and that there is nothing left worthy of their reflection.
I appreciate such things as bi-location have surely been discussed here but probably not many have seen it from inside the Intelligence Community. Don't care to know! that's fine. I won't tell.
Fear as a tool of protection? How about psychic shielding as an alternative. From my experience on the killing fields, fear only breeds irrational behavior and unintentional collateral damage. If a thug fears you he will target you. Christians once burned Witches because they feared them and what their truth would do to the mythology they were pushing. The sniper in war is feared and most often targeted. If you have been targeted by malicious powerful critters perhaps you have been playing down the wrong rabbit hole.

Anyhow... Sorry if I offended anyone. I extend an olive branch with a white flag attached. If no one asks for my insight I won't tell.




My belief is yes....In some situations, yes it is absolutely all right to harm someone else. In fact, there are many, many reasons I have encountered to hurt someone. Fear can absolutely be power. In the cases I have made someone fear me, there wasn't much need to put anymore energy into the situation - their fear took care of it. It got results, which is all I care about. So, yes, fear can be excellent protection in some situations as well.

What you are talking about is the Rede, whether quoted verbatim or not, the ideal still stands. The Rede has no place here.

I've yet to see any of the frequent members proclaim their path to be absolute truth.

Edited by Ravenshaw, 29 April 2015 - 08:23 PM.

RSKHFMY


#19 Barsa

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:12 PM

Am I to believe most Witches on this site find it appropriate to harm others? Not the Witches I know in my neck of the woods. And I did not quote from the Rede verbatim. At least no intention to do so. You certainly can attempt to slam the world if it lights your fire. It just doesn't light mine. After 5 years of killing in Vietnam I've had enough of harming.
Never said consequences were my priority. I simply stated a wise one might think about possible consequences to self and others. No intention to be confrontational just new on this forum and unaware of where many of you are coming from. That is why I am poising thoughts. Chill and back off of the hair trigger. There be no clips in my .223 :-)
Concerning credentials I mean no one here is qualified to say what they purport to practice is the only absolute truth and that there is nothing left worthy of their reflection.
I appreciate such things as bi-location have surely been discussed here but probably not many have seen it from inside the Intelligence Community. Don't care to know! that's fine. I won't tell.
Fear as a tool of protection? How about psychic shielding as an alternative. From my experience on the killing fields, fear only breeds irrational behavior and unintentional collateral damage. If a thug fears you he will target you. Christians once burned Witches because they feared them and what their truth would do to the mythology they were pushing. The sniper in war is feared and most often targeted. If you have been targeted by malicious powerful critters perhaps you have been playing down the wrong rabbit hole.

Anyhow... Sorry if I offended anyone. I extend an olive branch with a white flag attached. If no one asks for my insight I won't tell.


Shekinah... I think perhaps you had preconceived ideas about the members of this forum before truly exploring what it is to be a Traditional Witch.

Although I cannot speak for the other on here, I am one who has been known to curse a young girl for her hair to fall out for so much as giggling at my outfit. This is the reality of some Traditional Witches, whom are welcome (as I have so far seen) on this forum. Why do we get irritated when someone appears to be pushing morals on us? because the whole world does, and we come to this little corner of the internet so as not to deal with that. That is the root of what you think are these "confrontations". Such as this paragraph is not a confrontation, i am merely educating you on the reality of your situation here. Of course your opinions are welcome, but so are ours, and when someone brings up the Rede or Karma, you will hear exactly what we think of it.

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#20 Wexler

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 08:14 PM

If you have been targeted by malicious powerful critters perhaps you have been playing down the wrong rabbit hole.


Fuck you

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'Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.'

'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.'

 

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