Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Hecate Genealogy (Greek & Latin Sources)

Hecate Geneology asteria perses

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#21 Michele

Michele

    The Exiled Goddess

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7,033 posts

Posted 07 June 2015 - 01:58 PM

"It is my understanding that the shrines with the statuary pieces were to keep the dead and or roving spirits at bay and prevent unwanted entities from entering the home. Remember the doorway is a liminal spot as it is neither without the house nor within the house. So it becomes a boundary and place of protection. In that regard it served the same purpose as her shrines are supposed to have served at temples, shrines and sanctuaries in that it prevented entrance of things. Again it was not within the temple, shrine, sanctuary nor was it without. In some capacities I believe it served a similar purpose to the pediments that had gorgons engraved upon it to scare away harmful entities. " Monso

I agree with that - again I don't know much about this divinity, but it makes sense that anything protective or guarding would be at an entrance. So that what is unwanted is stopped PRIOR to entering, because once it's in, you've got a problem. Like witch bottles are often buried or enclosed in entrances (chimneys or roofs or doors, etc.) because if they're kept inside on a shelf, they're pretty much useless as whatever got in has now got in, and would just as easily find the witch as it would the bottle of DNA. (I have kept them on shelves, but honestly, I don't think they're good for much more than decoration on a shelf, lol.)

M

  • 0

#22 Christine

Christine

    Marsh Wiggle

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 449 posts

Posted 07 June 2015 - 02:03 PM

The manual... I knew I forgot to pack something for the trip back up...

Can we please swap out "retinue" for "staff?" The term I've been using seems to carry unintended connotations of willessness. Staff may follow directives with a certain volition of their own. And the origins of such staff intrigues me. Are they hand-picked, or volunteers, or does she really for example borrow someone else's dogs? Do startled moon wights find themselves in media via, no idea how they got there? That might explain a few things... That's it, time to buckle down and read some classics cover-to-cover. I'm starting this month with Ovid, UVA's online library looks to have several texts available for crossreferencing at ovid.lib.virginia.edu (yes my internet skills rival those of my grandmother, sorry no link) and maybe there's something in there. I know, Ovid is late, but honestly that doesn't bug me.

  • 0
Don't drink from the river, drink from the well.

#23 RoseRed

RoseRed

    . . . Not a big believer in . . . cowinkydink ;)

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,460 posts

Posted 07 June 2015 - 02:37 PM

I'm going to reply while I read through this. (If I forget to call you later or get busy - gimme a buzz after dinnertime)

It is my understanding that the shrines with the statuary pieces were to keep the dead and or roving spirits at bay and prevent unwanted entities from entering the home. Remember the doorway is a liminal spot as it is neither without the house nor within the house. So it becomes a boundary and place of protection. In that regard it served the same purpose as her shrines are supposed to have served at temples, shrines and sanctuaries in that it prevented entrance of things. Again it was not within the temple, shrine, sanctuary nor was it without. In some capacities I believe it served a similar purpose to the pediments that had gorgons engraved upon it to scare away harmful entities.
That is so freaking cool! I love talking to you. You're a walking encyclopedia.

How can we convert that to today's usage. Most doorways are now 4 inch doorjambs. I have either outside the door or inside the house or a 4 inch space to do something in miniature? (I'd actually really like to discuss this part - perhaps a different thread so it doesn't get lost in this one?)
While i've only found limited references to it I think the meal that is left was not only left at crossroads but also left upon the doorway entrance. In what I suppose would be equatable to the notion of there is nothing beyond the doorway and the meal stops them from going any further in. Granted that is my own surmising of its purpose. So, the meal is for the dead and not the Goddess? Perhaps, I missed it above but you're supposed to serve meals at the doorway shrine?

Followers get really iffy I think. Consider I can use the same set of skilled laborers every time as they hold the skills I need, have the experience I desire and have the establish relationship with my firm. Yet does it make them my followers? Yes, it certainly can. There is a loyalty that is built in those relationships. And some of those workers do become 'the right hand man' so to speak .

We know she has some capacity to dispatch, command and control various groups yet the lore never shows her as having a procession or following with the exception of the dogs or hounds that run the dead with her. Yet again are they the spirits of the hounds sacrificed to her or are they simply a aspect of an office she holds? I don't think so (spirits of the sacrificed). If an office then it would suggest that they go with whomever is functioning in that capacity at a given instance. That last sentence makes so much sense. When you phrase it that way then yes, I think it is an office. I also think that there are many packs. Consider Herme's also gathers the dead yet do we rule out hounds being present because it's not normally a part of his lore yet they are equated to the dead in Hellene lore in general? Why can't they be under the control of Persephone as Queen of Hell and used by Hekate when she is tasked to gather the restless dead who've been missed by Hermes? They could be. Somebody's gotta run the kennel. Consider also that wolves in general were a threat to ancient Europe as a whole so hearing the bay of the wolves in the night sure indicated death was roaming.

So I do think she uses the resources at hand but I do not specifically think that those resources are a retinue or followers dedicated to her. Not in the traditional sense - no. But look at us. You're a devotee and I'm a priestess. When the Lady commands (even if it's phrased in a most pleasant manner) you do as asked - no matter the physical cost. Being a Hollow Bone is a perfect example. So, no, I don't think she has a retinue or an entourage but I do think she has dedicated followers - they're just spread out and she uses them when she has reason to.

I think when trying to say what a high-priestess, priestess, priest or acolyte in general gets from serving her depends. Consider what Medea got for serving her in the Argonautica story.Don't forget about what happened to Medusa. Same principle. It's better to not be noticed by the gods. A knowledge of plants, herbs, potions, influence over life and death according to some accounts. Yet she also go betrayal, murder of her own offspring by her own hand, banishment and cursed in society, both within the Greek social order since she was a barbarian and within her own culture as she betrayed family and cult. Gee, and I was talking about personal expense above.

In some ways they get immortality in that more than a few are historically known. Statuary, dedications, housing and prestige, implied power and authority both civic and political due to the office. I think of all things dealing with the spiritual and religious components of being a priestess or priest the reward is probably the one thing that changed the most. Historically the role and rewards of a 2nd century AD priestess at Lagina was far different than what was present for the earlier temple complex. Yet so to were the demands and expectations placed upon them, either implied or directly stated.

All of which are certainly different from what we as modern pagans receive by dedicating ourselves to her and claiming a priest or priestess commitment. Consider there is no temple, shrine or sanctuary system today so the public perception is not there nor is there a cultural and / or social perception or prestige associated with it. Heck how many claim to be a priestess to her yet hide the very fact of their worship and practice from all eyes.

I truly wish there was some manual that tells how to be a priestess or priest to her. To define the boundaries of accountability, responsibility and culpability as implied and expressed via presumption of the position. The only place we have to look to is the lore and legend yet often do so at the expense of the greater social and cultural dynamics in which it existed. I suppose it is our own Holy Grail we seek and perhaps the revelation is that in seeking do we come to understand it but fail to realize it for we still seek it out thinking there must be more to it. Yeah, well, it's not much fun feeling like a floundering neophyte.


  • 0
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#24 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

Guest_monsnoleedra_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 June 2015 - 02:44 PM

If I might suggest use http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ as a source for your readings and research. It's one of the better sites I've found over time for older items with pretty good translations. Some doing side by side original and translation.

I think where the idea of staff gets confusing is due to the hierarchical system to Greek and Roman pantheon and mythology. Zeus being the highest holds authority by right of might and position and domain over which he holds control. Those divinity or semi-divine beneath him do as he commands and desires yet it is not because they are staff to him. If you consider Hekate holds dominion and influence over the earth, the underworld and the seas then she has a foot in each of the big three gods domains. Which to me sort of suggests she has positional authority over many aspects though she does not hold unconditional authority over them. So potentially any lessor divinity, semi-divine, etc that is affected / effected within a given domain probably do as she bides simply from the implied authority she has from Zeus himself. So to some degree i'd think she'd be seen as a lessor light of authority but still far higher than their position. Then it goes back to the old might makes right and sets the controls and limitations. Of course just my opinion so very debatable.

  • 0

#25 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

Guest_monsnoleedra_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 June 2015 - 02:51 PM

Rosered,

Consider this if you will regarding a doorway. The binding is a 4 inch jam yet the doorway itself I'd have to say is as wide as the swing of the door. So instead of a small 4 inch frame you actually have closer to a 3 to 4 foot arc through which the entryway can be opened. Actually funneling everything into the doorframe from the outside and funneling it open again on the inside if you have double doors. By double I infer the notion of an outer screen or storm door and an inner strong door that swings inwards. So it is a passage through space and physical reality yet is also liminal in that it is not inside nor is it truly outside, it is only present when the door is opened.

Regarding meals at the doorway or gateway shrine. From what I can gather by the Roman period meals were being left at the doorway and gateway for the goddess but also as a sort of public service to the disenfranchised of the population. In some ways I believe because it got to be a task in itself to find a remote 3 way crossroads where the meal and other parts of the Dnepier (sp) could be left. gets really confused trying to figure that one out at times as it seems to have evolved overtime.

Consider today we see the doorway as the boundary yet the gateway served as a doorway boundary that sat out from the home and separated it from the public access of the road. Yet today we really do not have such type gateways on our properties though I suppose a driveway entrance to the road might equate as one.

Edited by monsnoleedra, 07 June 2015 - 02:56 PM.

  • 0

#26 RoseRed

RoseRed

    . . . Not a big believer in . . . cowinkydink ;)

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,460 posts

Posted 07 June 2015 - 04:41 PM

Oh yeah, the driveway is a major entrance in the make up of the property we live in. I do see it as a gateway thing.

OK, so the entirety of the front porch, doorjamb itself and foyer would then all be considered part of the doorway entrance. I'm being too literal again.

  • 0
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#27 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

Guest_monsnoleedra_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:06 PM

Oh yeah, the driveway is a major entrance in the make up of the property we live in. I do see it as a gateway thing.

OK, so the entirety of the front porch, doorjamb itself and foyer would then all be considered part of the doorway entrance. I'm being too literal again.



Just my opinion but I wouldn't consider the front, side or back porch as part of the doorway entrance. Figure just because you are standing on it doesn't mean you can access the house. Yet step into that sweeping arc of the doorway and there really is little to nothing stopping you from coming in. Just my opinion again but I think even the vampire lore of having to be invited inside draws from that. Unless you invite and thereby open the door yourself for them they are at the boundaries but can not enter. Though I do admit the foyer I think would be part of it as it is usually further inside the house but still not truly part of it as a living space. About the same as a breezeway between two structures that share a common roof. Walking under it doesn't ensure access to either structure, only an ability to pass between them.

  • 0

#28 bewitchingredhead

bewitchingredhead

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 693 posts

Posted 07 June 2015 - 07:13 PM

Ok i'm lost as I didn't take it as anything nor did I reply to it. So not sure how I could have did anything to project I took it as trivial or a jest?



You didn't say or do anything to project that....I just felt the need to explain the smiley, my bad. :)

  • 0
I see you're getting your degree in art of the obvious~myself
Without music life would be a mistake~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time~ H.L. Mencken
When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves~ Galileo

#29 Christine

Christine

    Marsh Wiggle

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 449 posts

Posted 09 June 2015 - 06:32 PM

I'm sticking with the UVA library for Ovid, but thank you for the link, I always love another source. Tonight I should get to read the first section, hopefully at least the Kline English, maybe with Ehwald's Latin text as the library suggests. Finally, now that I have had a chance to take a look at the images, I think I see what you mean: the smaller winged figures. Intriguing indeed...
  • 0
Don't drink from the river, drink from the well.