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Familiar spirit and wood offering

Familiar spirit Spirit guide Spirit Wood offerings

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#61 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:15 PM

I know for me I was taught there is nothing in the spirit world that is working for our best interest. Any interaction is based upon a need being filled and the increased probability of that need being filled by doing for each other. As such even the most helpful of spirits has to be looked at under the condition that as soon as its need is meet it will go its own way or change its action to fulfill a new need. That we aided it in achieving some need is of little to no importance for it is not human not motivated by human concepts of compassion, care or anything like that. We falsely assume that our need is its need and bestow human like emotional reasons and attachments to it to justify our perspectives.

In that capacity they are like the creatures of the forest. They may appear to guide or aid us only as long as it benefits them to do so. In a moment they can turn and flee or equally turn and attack / destroy. It is all driven by their needs not ours. Yet within the pagan community it seems, to me anyway, many have assumed that all things are Christian like and only want whats good and proper for you. That false sense of security and safety people create for themselves in their perspective and viewpoint of things. Like the gentle nature of the forest while disregarding the sheer reality that everything in nature will kill you given the chance in order to survive itself.

It strikes me odd when you consider for instance the majority of rapes are done by people the person trusts and feels secure around because they have been lulled into a sense of safeness around them. Many robberies involve people who utilize the place over and over but the owner or person behind the glass again is lulled into a false sense of security and safety by the assumed normal actions. Even within the work place one becomes lulled into a false sense of security because of routine and complacency towards things. The observation of things through those rose colored lenses we collectively use so easily to make ourselves feel better and remove the sense of vulnerability and danger.

You can feed a dog and give it everything you think it desires that makes you feel better. Yet in an instant that dog can turn and remind you it is still something different than what you perceive or want it to be. The Spirit world is no different. It can and will lull you into a false sense of security and safety even as it appears that it is doing something for your best interest and is dedicated to you. Yet is it for you or simply to obtain that which it desires or something higher than it desires it to obtain for it.

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#62 Nikki

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:19 PM

I think what you say makes sense... with certain things, beings, and circumstances.


Guides, however, guide. I do think 'best interests' is the focus.

(My Guides have never asked for a material tribute/ Offering. Offerings, to me, indicate something else entirely, imo.)



In the spirit of trying to 'help' the OP ;) knowing exactly WHAT you are dealing with helps ... a lot.

Sometimes the WHY becomes clear later.

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The difference between Medicine and Poison is the Dose. :oil-bottle:
I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
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#63 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:32 PM

I think what you say makes sense... with certain things, beings, and circumstances.


Guides, however, guide. I do think 'best interests' is the focus.

(My Guides have never asked for a material tribute/ Offering. Offerings, to me, indicate something else entirely, imo.)



In the spirit of trying to 'help' the OP :wink: knowing exactly WHAT you are dealing with helps ... a lot.

Sometimes the WHY becomes clear later.


The thing with guides though is what they try to guide us to does not always align with what we think is best.

So how does said guide then change our minds? Most often it seems via some form of punishment until we change our focus and do what they desire. Granted punishment takes many forms and uses and does not always fall into physical punishment as a mid screw can definitely hurt just as much as a physical slap. Yet even changing our focus doesn't always align with what their intent for us is. I do admit guides seem to be extremely gifted in their ability to get us to follow a certain path and arrive at certain concepts and attitudes towards things. Yet as you point out, I to have never been asked by a guide to provide any sort of offering, etc for what they wish to guide me to either. Been slapped more than once when I don't or not as fast as they might desire but that is different than an offering.

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#64 Nikki

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:47 PM

IDK Monsno...

I figure if I am dumb enough not to listen to my Guides, it's my own idiotic actions/decisions that slap me. I blame myself, not my Guides, for the fallout.

Edited by Nikki, 06 March 2015 - 06:50 PM.

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The difference between Medicine and Poison is the Dose. :oil-bottle:
I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
In Secret, Between the Shadow and the Soul.
- Pablo Neruda


#65 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:49 PM

IDK Monsno...

I figure if I am dumb enough not to listen to my Guides, it's my own idiotic actions/decisions that slap me. I blame myself, not my Guides for the fallout.



Oh I'm not blaming the guide. Just sometimes even when we listen we don't actually hear what they are trying to tell us. Then of course other times we tell them not right now and that is not on their schedule to wait. he he he

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#66 Aurelian

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:52 PM

Mons....ancestors do not have our own best interests at heart? Especially the one known as great mothers of our families/lineages? SOME angels?

It has been said that some spirits are only into human relationships to get what they can get...but they're not going to get anything from us otherwise! To an extent, they will behave very benevolently.

Especially speaking of the human dead, and here I speak from my necromancy practice....yes, yes, YES, they can want the best for you, not all spirits change after they transition!

Just off the top of my head, and with these specific examples, I respectfully disagree.

Edited by Aurelian, 06 March 2015 - 06:52 PM.

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"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#67 Nikki

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 07:05 PM

^ I've have a similar opinion about and experience with Ancestors (not all, tho) The Dead and Angels. They DO help us, even when we fail.


I tend to see Deity as the punisher. ( some less than- nice- entities can also mess things up, too)

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The difference between Medicine and Poison is the Dose. :oil-bottle:
I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
In Secret, Between the Shadow and the Soul.
- Pablo Neruda


#68 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:21 PM

Mons....ancestors do not have our own best interests at heart? Especially the one known as great mothers of our families/lineages? SOME angels?

It has been said that some spirits are only into human relationships to get what they can get...but they're not going to get anything from us otherwise! To an extent, they will behave very benevolently.

Especially speaking of the human dead, and here I speak from my necromancy practice....yes, yes, YES, they can want the best for you, not all spirits change after they transition!

Just off the top of my head, and with these specific examples, I respectfully disagree.



Ancestor's want whats best for the continuation of the blood line. In that regard the needs of the one does not automatically weight higher than the needs of the line. Failure or success is not going to change the continuation of the line though under the oriental system loss of honor by anyone in the line negatively affects / effects the line. Yet most of western society holds no such familial connection forward or backwards. I think it also tends to hang upon the notion that any one individual is not the begining or ending of any line for their are always others of the ancestral blood to continue it on though a surname might be lost in the process.

The only exception to that I can think of is when the line claims one born outside of it and seeks to make them their own. Under such condition I would think extra attention is given to ensure the person is successful and bring honor to the name. Though honestly I think that aligns more with the Oriental slant where honor and such weights heavily and influences the "Spirit" or egregore of the family and all the bloodlines that make it up.

I do admit though that ones direct immediate ancestry will hold more of an ideal for success than your older ancestry who is further removed. Thus my deceased sister, my grandparents and maybe even great-grandparents seek to guide or aid when they can. But that to me falls into a different slant of ancestor recognition and attachment. In many ways falling into birth order, cultural bias, family bias, etc. Like I am the oldest of all my siblings and oldest of my generation and male. So I do have ancestor's that will help me for those reasons faster than they will or have assisted my siblings or cousins. Some even told such for they are not considered the ones to carry on and pass things down. At least two who have made claim that the ancestral influence is upon the first born and first born only unless they die ahead of schedule. What ever that schedule might be I have no idea.

Regarding the angelic host I find them not much different than the demonic host. Each aides and guides at their own whim and purpose. That whim and purpose being some condition that may or may not favor them in the immediate analysis that we can determine. How many have been saved by some angelic or demonic host member from some situation never to amount to anything? Probably far more than we are willing to admit for to admit such has to make the notion of angelic or demonic aid more suspect I think. Yet to believe that there is some angel out there that is going to come to your aid psychologically makes the individual feel more important and have a higher self worth and image. One reason I think we tend to notice those who've been chosen or aided in some fashion but seldom do we follow their lives afterwards to see if they amounted to anything.

In some ways the angelic / demonic host reminds me of an old Star Trek episode where the Enterprise crew saves an Air Force Pilot. They search his life and discover he is no one it's only when they check his genealogy and discover his great-grandson will be of importance did they discover his importance. So his importance was not in anything more than he would contribute to a later bloodline that would do something. But then one also must recognize that had he not been returned to make that blood connection the event would have still occurred none the less but with a different person.

The dead to me are a whole different issue. Many will aid and guide simply from the promise of release from their condition of being earth bound. So its implied as a quid pro quid type thing where they do for us because we can do for them. A proper burial and rites, something that puts their spirit are rest, all sorts of things. Other times simply through our life energy they "Feel" life once again and long for it and as long as they aide us they are bathed in that energy. One of the reason blood was so frequently offered to the dead to get their help though some would offer eggs for the same reason for the unrealized life force that was contained within the egg.

I personally find the recently deceased are much quicker to aid us than those who've been dead for some time and have released their earthly connection. The restless dead though are something different and are fairly easy to exploit and the reason so many curse tablets or such are found in graveyards or places where the spirits of the restless dead are encountered such as crossroads. Hung in sort of a limbo they are often eager to aid in the hopes we can aid them in return. I do acknowledge though that's where you start getting into the notion of the various sorts of dead and the many forms they take.

So while I agree some aspects of your argument hold merit on an individual basis I do not see it as being reflective of the larger concept. Ancestors, angelic / demonic host, dead or restless dead may aide, some more willingly than others for a given individual. But I'd also argue is it aid given because you can see and interact with them which raises the probability of aiding them or simply because they think humanity in general is worth it? Myself I find it more because they flock to those who can see and speak to them from some gift more than it is from a belief in humanity as a whole or its best interest. In that regard reminds me of the Movie GHOST where as a fake Whoopi's character didn't do anything but once the restless dead realized she could see them they came to her to have their last needs taken care of. Then in the process would do things at her bidding in the hope of increasing those odds in their favor.

Of course all my own opinion and perspectives so I figure others will agree in whole, in part or disagree with none of us being right or wrong though probably some where in the middle.

Edited by monsnoleedra, 06 March 2015 - 11:22 PM.

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#69 RoseRed

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 04:16 PM

The thing with guides though is what they try to guide us to does not always align with what we think is best.



Not always? That would be 'usually' for me.

I think getting too deep into recently deceased Ancestors is a slippery conversation at best. People have very different types of familial relationships and the Dead have very different abilities - depending on who they are/were/are again.

Angels, demons, gods, whim and whimsy... How do we actually know that what we perceive as whim or whimsy isn't actually a part of a bigger plan that just doesn't make any sense to us with our limited knowledge of what they're actually up to?

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#70 Nikki

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 06:32 PM

What a wonderful conversation this has turned into :smile: So much food for thought !!!

I don't see anything 'less-than'from personal experience being the cornerstone of the insights gleaned and put forth. I'm not sure the Big Picture was part of the OP intent - he's sharing a personal experience and was repaid in kind..... but, GREAT stuff here, nonetheless.

Perhaps the idea that Guides come in all forms and for different reasons is the crowning jewel of this thread.

Like RR said, recently dead Ancestors can be a slippery slope. They aren't automatically Guides !!! Sometimes (many times) the living must Guide them. And, yes, the recent dead seek out those who can hear and see them and/or correctly interpret their 'signs'. Sometimes they need our aid, sometimes we need theirs, sometimes it's reciprocal.. but hey, that's what families do.

What's 'good' for the Bloodline vs. the Welfare of the Individual is a interesting point.

'Good' depends, though. Not all family bloodlines are built on honor and benevolence, so there's that.

As far as the Individual wanting something other than what the Ancestor/s want, I pose this question: Since they are passed and the individual is still here, who's in the drivers seat?

Could it be possible that the living remain alive to 'right' a wrong.... to actually restore a bloodline that took a wrong turn? ...

Yes this another conversation, but one that might be worth having.

Edited by Nikki, 08 March 2015 - 05:52 AM.

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The difference between Medicine and Poison is the Dose. :oil-bottle:
I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
In Secret, Between the Shadow and the Soul.
- Pablo Neruda


#71 Aurelian

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 07:43 PM

Mons, I would try to multiquote you and reply bit by bit but it drives me batshit trying to do that and it would take up two forum pages, so I'm going to stick to my typical stylistic brevity and keep it short and sweet.

In my experience, as a witch working with ancestors, it is not an entire bloodline or rather bloodlines that you are working with, but typically one or two individuals who have passed within the last several generations, or even those whom you know during your lifetime. I can't think of one time when the ancestors I was worried about were worried about the entire bloodline. I am not expected to procreate, so perhaps that modifies things somewhat but...

Also, many, many of the dead are not in contact with their also deceased family members. Many dead do not know how to travel the ether(for lack of a better word), and contact other deceased.

Granted, there are ancestors who may go against your best wishes, and often, these things are cultural...things like a descendant marrying someone of an ethnicity that they are biased against...for example, my dead grandfather HATES the Japanese, even into death, but his brother was shot down by them during WWII, and actually that is the person whom I am named after. If I were to marry into a Japanese family, I would expect a bit of a blighting by him, honestly.

On to Angels. Oh, the problem with angels is they DO want the best for you. They will give you what you NEED, not what you want. They can ignore your requests, and if you get in their way...well, it can be like getting hit by a bus.

Also, this business about the dead not being able to pass over...really, they can come and go as they please, unless they are very confused or attached to something, occasionally something physical. But they can travel up and down the planes....granted, it is easier for a practitioner to open a portal than it is for a dead human spirit to do so, but they are fully capable.

So, there are always caveats and exceptions...there always are, in witchcraft/occultism.

This is my experience anyway..this is not book learning, or theory, but practice.

Wonderful conversation anyway, I like this thread much better now than when it started.

Regards,

Aur

Edited by Aurelian, 07 March 2015 - 07:45 PM.

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"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#72 RoseRed

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 08:42 PM

+1
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#73 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 10:42 PM

I agree I like the turn this thread has taken.

The dead to me are an interesting lot. Perhaps more shamanic in practice but I find many times the spirit crosses after about a year after death. Yet many times it leaves an echo of itself that in a twist retains a lot of the personality of the person but is not the actual spirit / soul of the person. In some ways that is the aspect that gets hung up with material possession or desires and refuses to cross over. Something like the echo of a ghost in that it is recorded upon a place and time but stuck in that cycle where the spirit echo is almost aware but its awareness often clings to its own time frame. Most times those echo's to the average person are the ones where something holds the person in place and is of such influence they can not let go.

Just my own opinion but I do think the echo can at times assume a guidance / protector role over family member's. Like some data source that is left intact and awaiting the time to pass or bestow some form of knowledge upon a member of the familial line. It's like for me my great aunt and a grand-mother seem to come to me when I need certain types of knowledge and pass it to me. Where it gets weird is that it seems to come down in packets where I get the knowledge but also companion info that covers multiple generations and experiences that affected it. Then like some library, Akashic Records?, I find a library where all those ancestral memories are maintained and I can question and get some answers but its hard to ask at times. In many ways its more about knowing how to ask or say vice simply speaking and having an exchange of data.

I've asked before if they are my actual ancestors and told no and yes. No it is not their true spirit and essence but yes in that it is the record of their lives and experiences. Almost as if it is the recorded record in our DNA but more than that in that it holds data that occurs after one is born and those things passed via the DNA and blood. What is ironic to me is that we can be given temporary passes to others data repository if it aides us in aiding them. Yet once separated I do not think we retain the info other than a general sense of things. So we talked to ancestors in a sense but its more of a data storage than an actual ancestor's spirit or essence.

For me the Angelic / Demonic host I see more in the Hellenic sense I suppose which is why I see them more as looking more for the greater line than the individual. Though admittedly I do not hold with the Chaldean notion of them being on the Moon or similar type in-between place. Though I do sort of support the idea that they are one in the same and only purpose changes their chosen form. But in that sense I see them as entities that would be dispatched by whatever "Divinity" or "Spirit" we call upon and ask them to aide us or assist us in our magical endeavors.

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#74 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 10:48 PM

Not always? That would be 'usually' for me.

I think getting too deep into recently deceased Ancestors is a slippery conversation at best. People have very different types of familial relationships and the Dead have very different abilities - depending on who they are/were/are again.

Angels, demons, gods, whim and whimsy... How do we actually know that what we perceive as whim or whimsy isn't actually a part of a bigger plan that just doesn't make any sense to us with our limited knowledge of what they're actually up to?



The usually getting it wrong applies to me a lot as well. Or the worse being here is one aspect of it, think you got it? Ok, now lets show you the alternative methods things can take. So point A never goes to point B but anything from B - Z.

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#75 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 11:06 PM

Nikki,

To be honest I hate it when the recently dead come to me. Not because they have a need but many times because they haven't dropped their earthly shell and some of those shell's are really gross and mutilated when they show up. Yet once they've been deceased and they no longer try to hold that human form and its more relaxed and you see the form they have settled upon more than the physical echo. Where it gets ugly to me is those who died quickly and often traumatically but don't realize they are dead. War victims, accident victims, brutal killings, etc leave some screwed up ghostly spirits and may require a strong stomach to deal with. Though I have found some do realize that so they appear sort of smoky but you hear them more than see them so they do not scare or shock you.

I do agree the notion of Guides takes a lot of angles. I think the problem lies in the assumption that all guides serve the same type purposes and functions. Because of that I think people in general, and yes many pagans in specific, do not realize each serves a differing purpose and mannerism of doing things. So all of them get lumped under Guides, Totems, Spirit aspects, etc and their purpose is lost. Consider the Bansidhe is many times for punishment but also heralding death but one aspect is lost as the general assumption is death only.

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#76 Solanaceae

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 11:22 PM

I agree with Monsno in that I don't see much difference between angels and demons in the way they interact with us. They apear to do things when it suits them or their purpose, whatever that may be. And I am really not sure that angels always want what is best for us, or to give us what we need whether we want it or not. Perhaps Aurelian is right and it is just against what we think is right for us, I don't know for sure. However I have found them at times to be just as capable of what appears to be absolute malevolence as any demon. In the same way, some demons seem very helpful. Of course I always suspect they have there own reasons and agendas that I am not aware of, but really I find this is the case with most entities anyway, living, dead or otherwise. As for ancestors, I think the older ones are interested in the bloodline and not necessarily the individual, as was suggested before in this thread. The more reacent and closer to us, well, let me put it this way. My parents (I know I am not alone in this) always thought they were making the right decisions for me. I certainly did not always agree, and they were not always right. Just because they love us, does not mean they will always leads us in the right direction.

Edited by Solanaceae, 07 March 2015 - 11:23 PM.

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Some are born to sweet delight,

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(Fragments from "Auguries of Innocence") William Blake


#77 Solanaceae

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 11:38 PM

I forget to mention deity, well, lets just say I don't even deal with them anymore.
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Some are born to sweet delight,

Some are born to endless night.

 

(Fragments from "Auguries of Innocence") William Blake


#78 CrowSnakeHareToad

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 12:16 AM

Just my own opinion but I do think the echo can at times assume a guidance / protector role over family member's. Like some data source that is left intact and awaiting the time to pass or bestow some form of knowledge upon a member of the familial line. It's like for me my great aunt and a grand-mother seem to come to me when I need certain types of knowledge and pass it to me. Where it gets weird is that it seems to come down in packets where I get the knowledge but also companion info that covers multiple generations and experiences that affected it. Then like some library, Akashic Records?, I find a library where all those ancestral memories are maintained and I can question and get some answers but its hard to ask at times. In many ways its more about knowing how to ask or say vice simply speaking and having an exchange of data.

I've asked before if they are my actual ancestors and told no and yes. No it is not their true spirit and essence but yes in that it is the record.







I completely agree with this and have had similar experiences. That essence is like a backup of consciousness, I know that makes it sound a little clinical and odd and less spiritual but it kind of makes sense. Would also kind of explains how there could be reincarnation yet still possible to tap into the essence/copy left in spirit.

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#79 CrowSnakeHareToad

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 12:30 AM

Perhaps the idea that Guides come in all forms and for different reasons is the crowning jewel of this thread.



Yes, I think that's true. don think we can some all spirits up and bunch them all together and that none of them are working for our best interest but I think that's just a matter of opinions because I know even back in the 70s and 80s traditional witchcraft had a place for the helpful spirits.

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#80 CrowSnakeHareToad

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 12:39 AM

In that capacity they are like the creatures of the forest. They may appear to guide or aid us only as long as it benefits them to do so. In a moment they can turn and flee or equally turn and attack / destroy. It is all driven by their needs not ours. Yet within the pagan community it seems, to me anyway, many have assumed that all things are Christian like and only want whats good and proper for you. That false sense of security and safety people create for themselves in their perspective and viewpoint of things. Like the gentle nature of the forest while disregarding the sheer reality that everything in nature will kill you given the chance in order to survive itself.

It strikes me odd when you consider for instance the majority of rapes are done by people the person trusts and feels secure around because they have been lulled into a sense of safeness around them. Many robberies involve people who utilize the place over and over but the owner or person behind the glass again is lulled into a false sense of security and safety by the assumed normal actions. Even within the work place one becomes lulled into a false sense of security because of routine and complacency towards things. The observation of things through those rose colored lenses we collectively use so easily to make ourselves feel better and remove the sense of vulnerability and danger.

You can feed a dog and give it everything you think it desires that makes you feel better. Yet in an instant that dog can turn and remind you it is still something different than what you perceive or want it to be. The Spirit world is no different. It can and will lull you into a false sense of security and safety even as it appears that it is doing something for your best interest and is dedicated to you. Yet is it for you or simply to obtain that which it desires or something higher than it desires it to obtain for it.





But I do agree on the nature side of things, it's less that they are helpful and all for us and more a case of different consciousness to work with, some chaotic, some calmer, some completely harmless, some dangerouse. Just like you see in nature. but I personally wouldn't sum up every single spirit having all them atributes in one.

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