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Can a man ever be truly a witch?


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#121 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:41 PM

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Monsnoleedra is wrong on this point. I should have been a little more pointed in my post responding to what he said. According to Dr. Tedlock's book, being some sort of trans is the very common for witches in shamanistic cultures. Being trans enhances magic ability rather than detracts. And he himself is bound to Artemis, so perhaps he was speaking more about his own struggles. From what I have read here, he has faced TERF-type antagonism for his devotion to Artemis.



No I'm not wrong about it. That's like saying because book A says this is what is found then everyone must align to that. My experience is very few shamanic practitioners were any sort of trans or had gender identity issues. Yes they had some but the larger population of practitioners where not. But of course under the current situations then I suppose we better change the books to make Sitting Bull transgender to appease a minority perspective.

Regarding Artemis it had nothing to do with gender identity it had to do with being male and claimed by her. But the usage of she only calls females has been my troubles with it. But I do have to side with the women who claim unless born a woman you'll never be a woman as you can't experience the full biological aspects of said argument. Mental gender and physical gender does not change the physical gender one is born with. In my experience and many of those I know gender is recognized upon the human plain by the spirits.

Either way it doesn't matter. I'm tired of you have to change what you believe to show support for others. I don't give a crap about his personal issues or what he thinks of himself as. That is his life and argument to deal with not mine nor is changing mine to make his easier. But it's pretty apparent it's ok to say things about or to me but heaven forbid you not appear to support their position. Sorry doesn't wash.

You can go ahead and close my account...I've had enough of supposed traditional crafts that is all about making life easier on others by demanding you change your ways and views towards things so you don't upset or offend them. Dam I long for the days when we worried about our craft and not trying to be politically correct.

Good Bye

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#122 Caps

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 11:52 PM

While I may wholeheartedly disagree with monsnoleedra, and I had long since buried this thread in the back of my dusty file cabinets...I have to speak up about what is going on here, I feel that it is not what it seems.

I am an open-minded person and feel that people have the right to believe (and in many cases say) what they think on topics on this forum. Nothing about monsnoleedras posts suggests any kind of "phobia," or otherwise hateful remarks, he is simply stating his beliefs on the topic, or his understanding of the topic. From the home page a few paragraphs down "You can have your say and post here as much as you like without fearing your beliefs will cause any biased comebacks by others on an alternative path" and this most certainly applies to monsnoleedra or anyone else here who may have (what appears to me at least) somewhat rigid paradigms in regards to deities and occult beliefs.

If a person believes that at the ceremony of (insert deity) only (insert gender) can be present because they are the only ones that can bestow certain spiritual attributes or gifts then those are their beliefs, I welcome reading about them and feel like these beliefs, too, have a very important place on this forum.

If guarantee there isn't a single instance of a hateful remark or "trans-bashing" in this entire thread, but people are doing a pretty good job of trying to alienate someone whose beliefs are not coinciding with theirs. We, as witches, should know better than this, most of us know what it is like to have our beliefs alienated.

"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

"It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."

#123 Marrena

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 12:17 AM

I'm new here and from what you say, I have overstepped the forum etiquette in my posts in this thread. I apologize.

I do need some clarity, though. Going back to the OP, if a witch posted here and said definitively that a man couldn't truly be a witch because men biologically just don't have the ability to do magic in the same way that women do, if a male witch then posted that he was a witch as much as any female witch, would he be chastised? Or would the OP be considered sexist? Or both? Or neither? Or maybe the problem was outright saying that another poster was wrong?

I certainly know what it's like having my beliefs alienated and am sensitive to that.

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#124 KnellDragon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 12:51 AM

I don't think it was ever stated that men couldn't do magic the way women do? It was bought up that rites like childbirth can't be experienced the same way. Can a man experience childbirth physically? No. Spiritualty? yes.
If a male witch posted he was just as much a witch as a women would he chastised? Of course not and I'm sure the guys on this forum would agree. Sexism itself bought up is just a spark for an internet war.
The problem was that a discussion between to viewpoints that was informative, turned nasty because feelings were bought into it and suddenly everyone was taking these posts out of context and using them as material for accusation.

(Marrena, if I read your post wrong I'm sorry!)

I think this thread should be closed and buried anyway, there is nothing more to gain from this, especially if someone is finding it offensive.

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#125 Caps

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 12:57 AM

I don't know for sure, Marrena, but what monsnoleedra is referring to is something I also see, not in regards to witchcraft but in many other topics as well.

People claim to be "open-minded" about the beliefs of others...yet suddenly become offended when they discover that people actually believe something different than they do. Online media is notorious for this, many forums, pages, groups, etc. ban people who disagree with them while saying they're "open-minded" through gritted teeth.

I personally wasn't getting much from this discussion, but a lot of people were, it's 7 pages long. I don't know if I could possibly ever say whether any of you are "wrong" or "right" one way or the other, what I do know is that I identify as a witch because I practice witchcraft and I am most certainly a cisgender male.

"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

"It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."

#126 Marrena

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 01:24 AM

I don't know for sure, Marrena, but what monsnoleedra is referring to is something I also see, not in regards to witchcraft but in many other topics as well.

People claim to be "open-minded" about the beliefs of others...yet suddenly become offended when they discover that people actually believe something different than they do. Online media is notorious for this, many forums, pages, groups, etc. ban people who disagree with them while saying they're "open-minded" through gritted teeth.

I personally wasn't getting much from this discussion, but a lot of people were, it's 7 pages long. I don't know if I could possibly ever say whether any of you are "wrong" or "right" one way or the other, what I do know is that I identify as a witch because I practice witchcraft and I am most certainly a cisgender male.

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I am a cisgender woman so I can't say I know for sure, but I think a similar sort of feeling would be felt by a trans woman upon reading a post saying that she wasn't really a woman, despite identifying as one. It would be hard not to take that as a personal insult. Likewise for a trans man. That's not a matter of being open-minded, that's a matter of dealing with a direct personal negation. I can see both sides.

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#127 Barsa

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 11:35 AM

I'd like it if the thread was kept, I am still reading through it all and I find it an important discussion.

And I'm just throwing out my two cents into the ring.

Which is that I'd like to squash any belief out there that transgender individuals and respecting their identified genders is ANYTHING new to America. It isn't an annoying "politically correct" thing you have to do now that you had never had to do in the past generations, because before white people came crashing into America that was the norm. There is plenty of information on "Two-spirited" individuals now, where someone would merely be a "genitaled woman" and etc.

Which tells me that at least to the Native Americans, in mannnnyyy tribes, they believed that not even that thing between your legs kept you from being a woman and even being the wife of a chief (as was the case in early Ojibwa history, when a two-spirit woman sought the affections of a white explorer and was spurned because the whiteman didn't see her as fully female, and the chief took her for himself).

It wasn't until white people came in and forced their beliefs on everyone that people saw gender as being fixed and purely physical.

So, yes. I believe there is nothing keeping a man from being a witch nor fully a woman.

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"Sweet are the uses of adversity, which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in every thing."

#128 Barsa

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 11:58 AM

I've reported. And with that, I'm out of here unless/until the mods handle this. So long.


These are important discussions that in the long run will help people understand. Your reaction is harming it, imo. But do as you like, people are allowed to and (from what I have seen on this forum so far) encouraged to discuss their opinions, which is the ONLY way our issues will be resolved and gender identity understood.

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"Sweet are the uses of adversity, which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in every thing."

#129 RoseRed

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 01:21 PM

Christine, I appreciate the short and quick explanation with small words. I still really don't know what 'cis' is but it's obviously important to some of the members here.

I do not think that spirits or magic give one good gaddamn what is under anybody's clothes, and I think that the rest of us should act that way too, because that is plain bullshit.



I happen to think that some of them do. Quite a few, actually. Because you believe it's bullshit - doesn't make it so.


Wexler, it isn't about expectation or standards. It's about hope and goals. It's about having the courage to offer real respect to the breakers of taboo and the rejectors of boundaries, regardless of the nature of the taboo or boundary. Expect the worst and hope for the best: I set my worst a little too high and got unpleasantly surprised. I don't go to the festivals and such. I am very private. I really get befuddled by running into this of all things in a forum that is accepting of so many practices that are as far as I can tell also generally frowned upon. Unconventional clothing styles and body modification are really sticking points?


So, it's about respecting a rebel? Those that break taboo are rebels.

But that didn't have a damn thing to do with why I posted the link to the website. I posted it because I respect his words and his walking his very difficult walk. His info on shamanism is top notch (at least I think it is).

The whole transgender thing isn't my gig. Honestly, deep down, I don't 'get it'. I do understand that it can be soul shattering. I try to ask polite questions, I try to have a basic idea because it's not my intention to offend anyone. If it's not possible to have an honest conversation without all the drama - I'm not gonna bother. I have enough of my own issues to work on - along with my own causes.

And why is someone with 2 whole posts recommending we lock a thread?

For those that are new here I'll make it really simple - no one gives a shit about your sex life. It's a witchcraft forum. Now, if you want to discuss sex magic and it's practical applications - cool.

Oh, and a - spiritual childbirth. Really?

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#130 Marrena

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 02:11 PM

No I'm not wrong about it. That's like saying because book A says this is what is found then everyone must align to that. My experience is very few shamanic practitioners were any sort of trans or had gender identity issues. Yes they had some but the larger population of practitioners where not. But of course under the current situations then I suppose we better change the books to make Sitting Bull transgender to appease a minority perspective.

I wanted to follow up about this point--there are so few transgender individuals in a community that yes, the majority of shamans would be cisgender. I'm not saying that Sitting Bull was transgender. I am saying that the rare transgender person was automatically considered to have the potential for superior magical ability by many pre-industrial cultures worldwide and was often encouraged to walk a shamanic path (or some lesser path also considered to have magical powers). Not all Native American tribes felt this way, but 21 did, including the Lakota. So in a sense from a traditional witchcraft point of view, trans people have an innate advantage when it comes to witchcraft, rather than a deficit.

Regarding Artemis it had nothing to do with gender identity it had to do with being male and claimed by her. But the usage of she only calls females has been my troubles with it. But I do have to side with the women who claim unless born a woman you'll never be a woman as you can't experience the full biological aspects of said argument. Mental gender and physical gender does not change the physical gender one is born with. In my experience and many of those I know gender is recognized upon the human plain by the spirits.

Yes, the reason I said what I did is to show that your comments reflected your own personal experience in the craft rather than just an outright dismissal of trans identity. I was attempting to mollify JDrakeS and show there was nuance in your views. I did not mean to imply that you were transgender yourself.

You can go ahead and close my account...I've had enough of supposed traditional crafts that is all about making life easier on others by demanding you change your ways and views towards things so you don't upset or offend them. Dam I long for the days when we worried about our craft and not trying to be politically correct.

Perhaps a middle way would be to say that transgender people are a third (and fourth) gender with their own distinct magical abilities, genders often considered by pre-industrial cultures to imbue an advantage for the practitioner's magical workings. I would also think that most witches would have some empathy, having gone into other people, including the opposite gender. I would think that would be something rather baked in to traditional craft, but I'm new here, so maybe wrong. I do hope you stay; I find your posts informative and thought-provoking.


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#131 Barsa

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 02:17 PM

No I'm not wrong about it. That's like saying because book A says this is what is found then everyone must align to that. My experience is very few shamanic practitioners were any sort of trans or had gender identity issues. Yes they had some but the larger population of practitioners where not. But of course under the current situations then I suppose we better change the books to make Sitting Bull transgender to appease a minority perspective.

Regarding Artemis it had nothing to do with gender identity it had to do with being male and claimed by her. But the usage of she only calls females has been my troubles with it. But I do have to side with the women who claim unless born a woman you'll never be a woman as you can't experience the full biological aspects of said argument. Mental gender and physical gender does not change the physical gender one is born with. In my experience and many of those I know gender is recognized upon the human plain by the spirits.

Either way it doesn't matter. I'm tired of you have to change what you believe to show support for others. I don't give a crap about his personal issues or what he thinks of himself as. That is his life and argument to deal with not mine nor is changing mine to make his easier. But it's pretty apparent it's ok to say things about or to me but heaven forbid you not appear to support their position. Sorry doesn't wash.

You can go ahead and close my account...I've had enough of supposed traditional crafts that is all about making life easier on others by demanding you change your ways and views towards things so you don't upset or offend them. Dam I long for the days when we worried about our craft and not trying to be politically correct.

Good Bye


I sincerely hope you don't leave. not to derail the topic into begging Mons to stay, but... I am.

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"Sweet are the uses of adversity, which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in every thing."

#132 westofthemoon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 03:16 PM

Ok, I didn't want to touch this but. A trans-gender person identifies as gender-fluid: neither male nor female but in-between, or both (hope I'm getting that right, please correct me if not--I can take it!). Cis-gender persons identify as one gender. It has nothing to do with one's sexuality.
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#133 Autumn Moon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 04:45 PM

Mods, can you make a topic area for sexuality beliefs? I hope so, because all this stuff has very little if anything to do with practicing Witchcraft.

Either you can do what a Witch does...manipulate energies and change circumstances well (or mediocre), or you cannot, and that has to do with personal skills, training (self or from another), knowledge, and practice. Those skills are not dependent on gender or ones sexual beliefs or orientation.

One should not, imo, confuse cultural practices with actual ability. Trans do not have a monopoly the Craft, except in some cultures (although I have not confirmed this through research), just as women do not, men do not, etc.

The title of this thread, I found to be, well, silly to be honest. In the persecutions, men were condemned as witches, women were condemned as witches...gender did not come into it.

Some women can cook, some cannot...same for men...same for transgendered persons, same for gay, lesbian, bi's...and Same for being able to effectively do Witchcraft.

Edited by Autumn Moon, 20 May 2015 - 04:47 PM.

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#134 Shinichi

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:29 PM

Well, this was certainly an interesting thread to read all the way through. Phew.

I'm genuinely surprised that nobody has mentioned the "Magical Hermaphrodite" yet, something Crowley wrote about and I myself faced. You see, being "two spirit" is not soul shattering or uncomfortable requiring a choice between the two when both are working in harmony with each other. I was born with a male body, and I am comfortable with that. I'm prone to "feminine" sensitivities, from being comfortable with my emotions to knowing how to cook and clean to having long hair (all of which makes me "girly" where I grew up), and I am comfortable with all that. My masculine spirit gives me the power to stand as a true gentleman, an example for what boys should aspire to be as they grow up. My feminine spirit gives me the occasional insight into the hearts of women, to such a point that I am almost always closer to female friends than male. The two spirits do not have to be in conflict with each other.

Naturally, though, there are spiritual and magical things that are unique to women, which I will never know regardless of my insights and sensitivities. I will never be Mother as but one example, because my role is Father, and the two have very different roles to play.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

On the topic of titles, though, "witch" and all that, I only have one little bit to say. It was explained to me, once upon a time, that it is not the practitioner who decides what they truly are, but rather the gods and spirits the practitioner serves or works with. A true shaman is not a shaman because he says so, he is shaman because the spirits say so. Any other label is much the same. And, although I am a student of The Craft, the very few times that a spirit has called me anything it was not "witch" that I was called. Sure, men can call themselves witches, as people in general can call themselves a lot of things. But at the end of the day the world is really a lot bigger than what you think you are, especially in this world of magick and spirits where many titles mean specific things and initiations are hard earned.



~:Shin:~

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#135 Autumn Moon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:38 PM

Naturally, though, there are spiritual and magical things that are unique to women, which I will never know regardless of my insights and sensitivities. I will never be Mother as but one example, because my role is Father, and the two have very different roles to play.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

On the topic of titles, though, "witch" and all that, I only have one little bit to say. It was explained to me, once upon a time, that it is not the practitioner who decides what they truly are, but rather the gods and spirits the practitioner serves or works with. A true shaman is not a shaman because he says so, he is shaman because the spirits say so. Any other label is much the same. And, although I am a student of The Craft, the very few times that a spirit has called me anything it was not "witch" that I was called. Sure, men can call themselves witches, as people in general can call themselves a lot of things. But at the end of the day the world is really a lot bigger than what you think you are, especially in this world of magick and spirits where many titles mean specific things and initiations are hard earned.



~:Shin:~

___
Like what spiritual/magical things? I would say only if it has to do with biological substances, and if that's the case, then it also applies to men.

Not every witch works with deity, or wants to, and working with one does not make one better at the craft. I, for one, am not going to be dictated to my some supposed deity who may not have my best interests at heart, nor will anyone, deity or not, tell me I'm not a Witch (as in working the Craft) because I'm male.

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#136 Shinichi

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:54 PM

Like what spiritual/magical things? I would say only if it has to do with biological substances, and if that's the case, then it also applies to men.




I already mentioned an example. There are specific things a mother can teach a child and specific things a father can be a child, and those things depend on the child too. I'm not the best person young girl should talk to about her menstrual cycle. A woman who has lived with that for years will be able to explain that much better than me, because I don't have that experience. The same can be said about a mother figuring out how to talk to her son about his own changes.

It's not a sexism thing, or a religious thing, or any of that. It's just a fact of nature and a fact of experience. Sure, I can come up with something to tell a young girl, to explain to her why she's suddenly bleeding. I can explain the biology, tell her it's natural and assure her that she isn't going to die. But it is different when she hears it from someone who has experienced it for years and really hasn't died from it.

Not every witch works with deity, or wants to, and working with one does not make one better at the craft. I, for one, am not going to be dictated to my some supposed deity who may not have my best interests at heart, nor will anyone, deity or not, tell me I'm not a Witch (as in working the Craft) because I'm male.



Then that is your practice and your tradition.


~:Shin:~

Edited by Shinichi, 20 May 2015 - 05:54 PM.

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#137 Autumn Moon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:59 PM

I already mentioned an example. There are specific things a mother can teach a child and specific things a father can be a child, and those things depend on the child too. I'm not the best person young girl should talk to about her menstrual cycle. A woman who has lived with that for years will be able to explain that much better than me, because I don't have that experience. The same can be said about a mother figuring out how to talk to her son about his own changes.

It's not a sexism thing, or a religious thing, or any of that. It's just a fact of nature and a fact of experience. Sure, I can come up with something to tell a young girl, to explain to her why she's suddenly bleeding. I can explain the biology, tell her it's natural and assure her that she isn't going to die. But it is different when she hears it from someone who has experienced it for years and really hasn't died from it.



Then that is your practice and your tradition.


~:Shin:~

_____
So, by that analogy, only female doctors should explain things to females, and male doctors explain things to males. Sounds sexist to me, and incorrect. One doesn't have to be a cow to know what milk is.

Right, it is the way I do things, so do a lot of others, while some do it otherwise.

Why are you saying, it is this or it is that. It would be better to take individuality as the determining factor.

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#138 ArcticWitch

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 06:11 PM

There is a difference between providing knowledge and providing perspective.
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#139 Mountain Witch

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 06:13 PM

Personally, I think this whole thread has gotten out of hand and I believe it stems from the OP conflating witchcraft/deity work/shamanism.

What everyone needs to remember is that not all witches are the same. As many have pointed out here and elsewhere, not everyone works with deity, and not everyone is a hedgerider/shaman/whateveryouwanttocallthem.

Can you work with/worship/be a devoté(e) of Deity X with whatever plumbing/mindset you have? It depends and that's between you and him/her/it.
Can you be a hedgerider/shaman/whateveryouwanttocallit with whatever plumbing/mindset you have? It depends on your tradition and/or the spirits you work with.
Can you cast a spell and have it come to fruition? Then yes, you're a witch, using the currently-accepted term for a spellcaster.

This thread (much less this forum) is not a place to discuss the sociopolitical subject of sexuality. I won't start a new thread because that subject is not what we're here to discuss. If you want to debate it in terms of deity work or shamanism, I'm sure there are other fora out there that will welcome that sort of discussion.

So, everyone, STOP.

For purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will.
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#140 Droghon

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 09:41 PM

For information, JDrakeS requested account deactivation which I have now done

And closing thread as it's run it's course.

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Words of a wise woman .. "OMFG stop being an utter newb and start acting like a proper witch who knows what they are talking about!"