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Can a man ever be truly a witch?


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#21 Caps

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:01 AM

Although it's a bit off from the original topic, I think you might find some of the work of IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences) interesting, ClockworkGhost.


Also, related to the superstring theory, it isn't difficult to link the Spheres of Sephiroth with the modern concept of the ten dimensions. Arguably, even the "nine worlds" of Norse mythology can fit into it if you include Valhalla.

Edited by Caps, 20 February 2015 - 06:03 AM.

"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

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#22 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:18 AM

@ClockworkGhost:
Personally, I'd love to read how you can prove your claim. I hope you won't continue use the excuse that this isn't a scientific forum to not share a your insights and this tremendous discovery as it pertains to witchcraft... because THAT IS what this forum is for.

I've heard many a Quantum Physicist in the past year say that they were CLOSE to explaining the 'secrets' but haven't found a way to prove it mathematically.

I think it would be a blast to have the next Noble Prize Winner as a TW member.

Even if you bore us.


Quantum theory has a massive hurdle to overcome before it can progress towards a unified theory of everything - it's relationship with the general theory of relativity, the theory which explains gravity. Gravity and quantum theory simply don't work well together, which has led to the development of Quantum Gravity. The reason why gravity and quantum theory don't seem to work well together is two fold - quantum theory is formed around measurements smaller than the component parts of atoms, where calculations based on the general theory of relativity, a theory designed more to be applied to super massive objects, simply falls to pieces. Quantum theory is also a theory of probabilities, not actualities, and the core 'natural science' element of Einsteins theories simply cannot handle something which postulates existence in a non-natural way. While you can describe magick using quantum theory, as Peter Caroll and several other quantum physicists do, the theories still have trouble under scrutiny through a 'natural science' observation due to both theories having a totally different framework in regards to how they view reality itself.

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#23 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:38 AM

Although it's a bit off from the original topic, I think you might find some of the work of IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences) interesting, ClockworkGhost.


Also, related to the superstring theory, it isn't difficult to link the Spheres of Sephiroth with the modern concept of the ten dimensions. Arguably, even the "nine worlds" of Norse mythology can fit into it if you include Valhalla.


Spot on! The Negative Veils actually fit perfectly into quantum physics, and if you want to get ridiculously tricky, into complex mathematics through non-axiomatic set theory. The Negative Veils and the Toltec concept of the Tonal and Nagual are arguably the most conceivable ways to envision Naive Sets in such a way that you can use them in an occult paradigmal world view. Yes, the existence of YHVH can be seen as also being an example of a Naive Set if you ascribe to the view that God exists outside of the universe itself, but this existence of a set where an element (God) both exists outside of the universal set and also in a set contained within the universal set at the same time is one giant massive mess of paradox.

Man, this thread is getting even more nuts... :banana:

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#24 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:47 AM

Wow, thank you for enlightening us. I am sure none of us witches have concidered these things before. I mean, why would we be interested in science or have an understanding of quantum theory?


Because you're also wise, clever, and able to fully understand the path you have chosen through rationalities you have applied to it? Science and magick can easily exist side by side. Just because you believe in magick doesn't mean you can't believe in science - the two disciplines are actually rather intertwined. If we can use modern science to draw parallels between such theories as superstring theory (which actually ties in extremely well with Toltec Shamanism) and occult sciences then maybe we can scare the pants off the naysayers who say magick is merely hookum and fiction.

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#25 Nikki

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 07:28 AM

Quantum theory has a massive hurdle to overcome before it can progress towards a unified theory of everything - it's relationship with the general theory of relativity, the theory which explains gravity. Gravity and quantum theory simply don't work well together, which has led to the development of Quantum Gravity. The reason why gravity and quantum theory don't seem to work well together is two fold - quantum theory is formed around measurements smaller than the component parts of atoms, where calculations based on the general theory of relativity, a theory designed more to be applied to super massive objects, simply falls to pieces. Quantum theory is also a theory of probabilities, not actualities, and the core 'natural science' element of Einsteins theories simply cannot handle something which postulates existence in a non-natural way. While you can describe magick using quantum theory, as Peter Caroll and several other quantum physicists do, the theories still have trouble under scrutiny through a 'natural science' observation due to both theories having a totally different framework in regards to how they view reality itself.




I'm not the first person to prove the existence of magick using cutting edge scienceYou could argue that each case is simply someone believing in the scientific ignorance of their time, but you have to remember that science is constantly evolving, and the things that people consider magick one day are becoming trusted and accepted science the next. But, to get back to the question, my own studies are more continuing on from the work of Chaos Magician and quantum physicist Peter Carroll. I have linked his site below.

http://www.specularium.org/

I personally am using 10D space to show that magick has to exist in quantum theory in order to ensure completeness in the theory as a whole. As 10D space includes all possible different sets of physics, it must also include magick as a system of laws - not doing so makes 10D space incomplete, and therefore fallible. As this is a Trad Craft site, and not a experimental physics forum, I wont bore you by going into quatum theory in depth. It is definitely something you may wish to explore though, if such things interest you.




Okay, these two posts seem to contradict each other. One seems to assert THIS IS WHY IT'S TRUE. The other seems to assert THIS IS WHY IT CAN'T BE PROVEN.

Either it's proven or it's not.

Also, when you wrote 'I discovered' it seems you might've meant 'Come to learn of' - in reference 10D Theory.
( I don't want to put words in your mouth - so please correct me, should I be wrong.)




Last I heard, magic is not 'proven' for exactly the reason you stated your latter post.


(Which is great !!! I hope it NEVER is 'proven')

Although, a TW Noble Laureate would've been cool.

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#26 Autumn Moon

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:15 AM

Lilith, is mythology. Believe in your own abilities. Gender had nothing to do with it, ime.
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#27 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:28 AM

Our understanding of what constitutes reality too often becomes bound by dualism. Things become objective or subjective, we answer yes or no to a question, and a hypothetical understanding of the universe must either adhere to or overcome those that went before it to become theory.

It is true that quantum theory suffers heavily in a world still so bound by natural science, but in challenging observed truth, such as gravity, it is creating new truth - neither theory is right or wrong, it is simply a cat in a box.

Over time I have come to believe strongly in quantum theory as to its ability to prove to me that magick is both understandable using theoretical science, and that physics can be used to, if not prove to everyone that magick is required to exist in order for Superstring Theory to be complete, simply prove to my own unshakable spiritual faith that science and magick can exist side by side.

Quantum theory is still developing. There are five differing schools of scientific thought on the topic. Just as other theorems have merged to give birth to yet more theory, so does quantum physics merge it's divisions to create M-Theory. I will never prove to everyone that science can prove magick, and maybe my original claim was too bold. For this, I am sorry if I wasted your time. I just hope that this fanciful distraction made you think, and perhaps consider something you had not considered before.

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#28 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:29 AM

Our understanding of what constitutes reality too often becomes bound by dualism. Things become objective or subjective, we answer yes or no to a question, and a hypothetical understanding of the universe must either adhere to or overcome those that went before it in order to become theory.

It is true that quantum theory suffers heavily in a world still so bound by natural science, but in challenging observed truth, such as gravity, it is creating new truth - neither theory is right or wrong, it is simply a cat in a box.

Over time I have come to believe strongly in quantum theory and its ability to prove to me that magick is both understandable using theoretical science, and that physics can be used to, if not prove to everyone that magick is required to exist in order for Superstring Theory to be complete, simply prove to my own unshakable spiritual faith that science and magick can exist side by side.

Quantum theory is still developing. There are five differing schools of scientific thought on the topic. Just as other theorems have merged to give birth to yet more theory, so does quantum physics merge it's divisions to create M-Theory. I will never prove to everyone that science can prove magick, and maybe my original claim was too bold. For this, I am sorry if I wasted your time. I just hope that this fanciful distraction made you think, and perhaps consider something you had not considered before.

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#29 ClockworkGhost

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:31 AM

Meh, tunnels and cell phones. Apologies for the double post.
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#30 Christine

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:30 AM

Do you mean cis?


Also, if a man could not be a witch why would there be so much arguement over what to call him?

Edited by Christine, 20 February 2015 - 11:46 AM.

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#31 Lilitia

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:55 PM

:coffee:

This thread has really turned in an unexpected direction. As far as "witchiness" and "maleness" go...both of those things are subjective to the practitioner. One's label as a practitioner, along with ones gender are a personal thing. Genetically one's gender is unchangeable, but medically, mentally, spiritually...subjective. And changeable.

Anyone can practice magick that has the natural ability, the will, a strong attachment to their intent, and other factors that we as members of this forum are familiar with. Anyone can also be a certain gender, or become a certain gender. We cannot equate one's ability as a practitioner to their reproductive plumbing.

We must take into account that humanity comes in many forms. Male and female are the predominant forms, but babies are born every day, all day. Some of those babies are intersexed, or chimeras (bearing two sets of DNA). I am also quite sure that of those babies that are born intersexed, or chimeras, or what have you, that some of them grow up to become witches. Just like I am sure that there are many many transgender witches out there. One of the offenders in my pod at work is a transgender witch, actually.

So maleness...witchiness...meh. Call it what you will, we all shape reality into what we want, which makes us what we are. Labels be damned.

Edited by RachelLiz, 20 February 2015 - 02:04 PM.

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#32 Ravenshaw

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 02:16 PM

Editted out for conversation purposes

Edited by Ravenshaw, 20 February 2015 - 02:17 PM.

RSKHFMY


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Posted 20 February 2015 - 02:39 PM

To go back to one aspect though that I think many overlook.

For me the daughter's of Lilith reference ties back to blood and menstrual blood at that. A male can not create it. He can't create it nor can he experience the totality of all it involves and affects / effects upon the body. It is part of the female mysteries and part of the mystery of birth. People like to say well a man in a woman's body or a woman in a man's body but the fact is still a man does not have a menstrual cycle and a woman does. In that regard I do agree with many of the feminist that claim a transgendered female in male body is not a true woman physically so can't experience the psychological and emotional aspects of it, so can not experience the full depths of the female mysteries. Nor can a transgendered woman in a man's body fully experience the masculine mysteries and all it entails. It's more than just mental but also energetic, biological, emotional, psychological and many more all tied together in support of each other.

I've had many experiences where spirits, guides, etc have told me I can't fully comprehend something as I am not of the blood so do not understand in that way. Rosered can speak on the many conversations we've had about that and how its a struggle to put into words or concepts at times.

One face of paganism that has to me really moved into the new agey perspective of all being equal and special. Don't agree with it as the mind and the body work in conjunction not as independent aspects no matter how hard people try to convince themselves otherwise. And if your taking pills, shots or whatever to hide some aspect then the body is being negatively influenced to appease the mind. That never produces refined energy currents within the system as they are coded for a different usage.

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#34 Ravenshaw

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 02:54 PM

Monsno, while your point about menstrual blood definitely has its place, I think there are quite a few male mysteries which have an equal place in magic, such as being the seed carrier and a more intense connection to virility. Both seed and moon blood hold the potential of a life which has been lost, and both can be given.

This is what is precious about different sexes, is the innate level of individuality which comes with it, even on something as simple as the "male/female" sex scale. Gender, on the other hand, I think, can plug people in on quite a different basis, and where ones identification lies can give them access to certain "male" or "female" keyholes. For example, a trans woman does not bleed, but neither does a physical woman with sever PCOS, nor does a woman who has had a hysterectomy. While I do not know from personal experience, I cannot imagine that locks them out of many, or any, particularly female practices.

RSKHFMY


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Posted 20 February 2015 - 03:22 PM

Monsno, while your point about menstrual blood definitely has its place, I think there are quite a few male mysteries which have an equal place in magic, such as being the seed carrier and a more intense connection to virility. Both seed and moon blood hold the potential of a life which has been lost, and both can be given.

This is what is precious about different sexes, is the innate level of individuality which comes with it, even on something as simple as the "male/female" sex scale. Gender, on the other hand, I think, can plug people in on quite a different basis, and where ones identification lies can give them access to certain "male" or "female" keyholes. For example, a trans woman does not bleed, but neither does a physical woman with sever PCOS, nor does a woman who has had a hysterectomy. While I do not know from personal experience, I cannot imagine that locks them out of many, or any, particularly female practices.



Oh I agree there are both sides and equally important. Yet the difference is also pretty drastic in how each handles and process their mysteries in both the physical, mental, psychological, etc states of being.

Transwoman may not bleed but they never can either, yet the biological woman can if the physical condition preventing it is changed or corrected. The system is also wired to experience the changes of maturity adn its affect / effect upon the bodies functions and operations. The hysterectomy removed a capacity that did exist prior to the operation so the system was there to begin with and could be experienced. Yet the removal did not change the other conditions that might go with it, consider menopause or changes after certain ages the biological function ceased yet the person was still physically hardwired to experience it. A transwoman is also not going to be able to give birth or conceive either so how can they experience that either? Psychological versus physical is still the defining factor, sort of what can be done versus what one might like to have done. The body is wired for what it is supposed to do not what something within might think it should do otherwise I think.

I think the argument though comes from trying to say the mental or psychological condition is the same as the physical or biological condition and thus produces the same results or capabilities. In that I disagree and truthfully think it belittles or lessons one to make the other feel accepted. Neither right or wrong on a social level where mental is the driving factor but on a biological level they are not the same and can not produce the same results. While contraries have existed in many societies and people have considered them touched in someway it didn't change what they were expected to do or though capable to do. A transwoman for instance didn't go through moontime so would not be placed in a position to administer to those who did, they couldn't relate the experience, emotions, physical stresses, etc much less advice on them with experience behind it.

Culturally wise though I think its always been easier on a woman in a mans body to function in a mans role than reversed. Easier but not specifically more truthful in experiencing what it is to be the other.

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#36 Caps

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 03:55 PM

Glad to see the topic is back on target. I just wanted to bring in the concept of past life and how it also may influence gender neutrality since it hasn't been mentioned yet.

I can see the physical distinction related to reproductive function and how it may pertain to the topic but those are merely physical factors. As a witch I certainly do not limit myself to understanding only mundane traits such as gender regarding a spiritual topic.

"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

"It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:17 PM

Glad to see the topic is back on target. I just wanted to bring in the concept of past life and how it also may influence gender neutrality since it hasn't been mentioned yet.

I can see the physical distinction related to reproductive function and how it may pertain to the topic but those are merely physical factors. As a witch I certainly do not limit myself to understanding only mundane traits such as gender regarding a spiritual topic.


Stick an AC power source in a DC slot and see how that works. reproductive is on the surface but workings internal and how the physical energy works is still different. Figure we call upon both the internal energies and the energies about us yet those best suited to our purpose will often align to what is already within us. Even converter programs can only go so far or make believe yet it is not the original source.

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#38 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:22 PM

Glad to see the topic is back on target. I just wanted to bring in the concept of past life and how it also may influence gender neutrality since it hasn't been mentioned yet.

I can see the physical distinction related to reproductive function and how it may pertain to the topic but those are merely physical factors. As a witch I certainly do not limit myself to understanding only mundane traits such as gender regarding a spiritual topic.



Wanted to separate the past life influence.

I think if one believes in past life and if they believe that it can influences the present life then the potential is probably there to do so. Yet that seems to fall into the same notion of otherkin and therionthropy in that belief in it is the critical factor. But it also ties into the notion of false past life memories, planted and suggested influences and such vice actual encoded genetic memory or dna passed type memory. Perhaps even to the notion of borrowed memory where we are close enough to a person to pick up on memory events and see it in the 1st, 2nd or even third person aspects.

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#39 RoseRed

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:04 PM

I have no interest in discussing proving magic by using current theory. It's a good theory, tho. Going completely back on topic:

I may well be the end of my ancestral line of occultists. My mother, and her mother before her, were both kitchen witches at the very least. While much of my magick simply comes from sexual abuse and extreme isolation, my mother definitely added to my perception of magick from a very early age. I have a sister, but she never took up any magickal paradigm - she is far too rooted in the mundane. She was a police officer until the sight of one too many murdered children gave her PTSD. Now she runs her own fitness empire and pushes herbal supplements.

So does my line end with me?
No. You have children. Growing up with Catholicism is one of the easiest religions to convert from because it borrows so much from paganism.

Even if you're chilren don't show Gifts or Talents - those things are known to skip a generation or two. If it's in the blood line it's in the blood.

My own children are still very young, and I discuss the occult with them from time to time as an option to the Roman Catholicism my ex-wife drums into them. My son has said many times that YHVH isn't real, but his absolute faith in Father Christmas does worry me. So I wonder, who teaches my daughter Trad Craft when she wishes to learn the truth of her ancestors?
People like us. Trad Witches.

The rest she'll have to learn on her own. It's not unheard of for lineaged witches to be without formal training. It usually has to do with the death of whoever would've taught them.

I have the utmost respect for women - you wouldn't think it with the history I have, but every prostitute I spent time with I befriended in some small way, even if just through giving them a real massage, or listening to their story. I am infinitely closer to my mother than my father, and find it much easier to befriend women than I do men. I have spent years developing a relationship with the entity whose 44 names I will not repeat here, but who I know as Lilith - this relationship hospitalising me on two separate occasions. There is no other woman for me, I have taken a vow of complete and utter chastity as a result of my workings with her.

But what of the daughters of Lilith? I will never be one, being male I will only know her in a limited way - her magick is simply not accessible to me. I wonder if this is the same for Trad Craft? Sure, I can do witchcraft related magick, but am I simply a shaman who practices hedge riding? So I wonder, can a man ever truly be a witch?
The only men that I've personally known that classify themselves as a witch have a transgender type of issue. I'm not making a judgement call - this is just what I've seen. I'm sure there are others that identify as a witch that don't. I just haven't met any.


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#40 Pikkusisko

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:56 PM

This also brings to mind the practices of Seiðr from the old Norse religions. It was supposed to be practiced by both genders, but males who practiced this form of sorcery were committing an extreme social taboo because it was considered "unmanly."


Male practioners of Seiðr might have been judged for using this form of magic but there's no hard proof it was considered "unmanly" or even discouraged. Plenty of other forms of magic would have been practiced by men. Runic magic was more associated with men. Also, magic involving the enchanting of weapons. Herbalism and oracle type forms of magic would have been more associated with women, but it's not to say men didn't practice either, because they most likely did. Just not a lot of mention.

Some of the reasons it might have been considered unpopular and "unmanly" are:

Men of that time depended a lot on their status which was maintained by acting honourably. Sinking ships isn't a particularly trustworthy action, so men might have been judged for practicing this form of magic while women, who didn't need to prove themselves in this way, might have been given a blind eye: The god Loki was said to have dabbled in Seiðr. Loki isn't exactly considered the most masculine of the Norse gods (turning into a mare and getting impregnanted ought to do it): Sources were written after the Christianization so there's a chance the writings alluded to the stain of Eve's actions/nature in womankind. While it might have been considered natural for women to practice this form of passive aggressive magic, men might have been seen negatively from this point of view. All theories. We don't know for certain.

If I'm connecting this to the main topic, I feel like what we're discussing now are just forms of magic and what form of magic we most associate with 'witch'. During the Icelandic Witch Trials all the "witches" (the terminology for the time and place probably would have been 'sorcerer') executed were men. For them 'witchcraft' was common place among the two genders, a survival technique as necessary as hunting and farming. If the butter went bad during the winter that could mean malnutrition, even death. If good relations were not kept with certain spirits it could also be costly. Maybe we just all have different, personal definitions of 'witch' which tie into our belief systems, because I just can't see how a man can't be one unless they prefer to follow some of the beliefs shared here. :confused:

Edited by Pikkusisko, 20 February 2015 - 09:59 PM.

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