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Grand Luciferian Circle


Izzie

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Guest monsnoleedra

Definitely, and still so many authors do not do it. I also do not see why the carpet should be of concern if the working has been closed with the proper banishments at the end.

 

Just to add to the circle tricks. With the years, one thing that I look for in a new house is a space where a circle can be drawn. Then I try to keep the space free of furniture, or with just few furnitures around, and easily movable. When I draw a compass round I like to see the lines, so I keep a piece of chalk attached to a cord to draw the circle. During the banishment, the lines are also swept away, the furnitures put back in place and nothing ever happened.

 

 

But in true ceremonial workings the circle is never fully closed its always left partially open.  It's like go to any place that Wiccan's have used over and over for ceremony / ritual and you'll see those are never fully closed as there is always a lingering energy that simply builds at the spot.  Frequently an energy that contains both the perspective of this world but also elements or aspects of any other energies that were raised.

 

So you shut the portals / doors from this side but the portal is never locked or closed, thus you never have to go through all the incantations and such to reopen them.  Nor does it really close the vortex point that many times is affixed to some item that is used over and over by the same person, group or at the same place.  Omit that item and everyone notices that the circle didn't go up right and the flow seems broken and there is trouble with the whole action.

 

That's what always mystifies me about modern pagans.  Go to La Grange, its still open and charged.  Go to Stone Hinge its still open and charged, go to the medicine bowl its still open and charged, go to nearly any archaic temple, sanctuary or sacred spot and they are still open and active as well.  Once opened and active you create a basic vortex upon the spot and its not a simple matter of following Wiccan practices and say your closing them.  At best you negate the structure of the gateway by distorting it and when you do your ceremony / ritual again you reform the gate above the vortex you created.  Then factor in many times the distortion of the gate only works against things not of this world though if used enough it does attract things from this world. 

 

We'll I suppose it one were to say modern pagans are not as close to things nor as qualified as their archaic ancestors then they might not be able to raise a place of energy and power like them.  Then just maybe you could assume you close something or opened it like them but not really have done so.  Yeah I know i'm being arrogant and condescending I suppose for daring to think outside the limits of the basic 101 books that get pushed and suggest they are the begin all and end all with their many Wiccan influenced ceremonial practices.

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But in true ceremonial workings the circle is never fully closed its always left partially open.  It's like go to any place that Wiccan's have used over and over for ceremony / ritual and you'll see those are never fully closed as there is always a lingering energy that simply builds at the spot.  Frequently an energy that contains both the perspective of this world but also elements or aspects of any other energies that were raised.

 

 

In fact, my experience with ceremonial circles is non-existent. I cannot contradict you here, as I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I agree that a lingering energy may still be present in the place of the working, but I believe this actually depends on the working your doing and on the banishing you're performing. I don't think it's either an open portal or nothing.

 

So you shut the portals / doors from this side but the portal is never locked or closed, thus you never have to go through all the incantations and such to reopen them.  Nor does it really close the vortex point that many times is affixed to some item that is used over and over by the same person, group or at the same place.  Omit that item and everyone notices that the circle didn't go up right and the flow seems broken and there is trouble with the whole action.

 

Again, I do not believe that each time one practices magic in a circle that is the same quality and amount of energy raised. Of course, continuous and powerful magic around a place / item in the long term will need to be managed properly.

 

That's what always mystifies me about modern pagans.  Go to La Grange, its still open and charged.  Go to Stone Hinge its still open and charged, go to the medicine bowl its still open and charged, go to nearly any archaic temple, sanctuary or sacred spot and they are still open and active as well.  Once opened and active you create a basic vortex upon the spot and its not a simple matter of following Wiccan practices and say your closing them.  At best you negate the structure of the gateway by distorting it and when you do your ceremony / ritual again you reform the gate above the vortex you created.  Then factor in many times the distortion of the gate only works against things not of this world though if used enough it does attract things from this world.

I think you are missing an important point here. The places you mention were meant for public use, rituals would be performed almost daily. Possibly communities would gather around them. You need to keep a place like that open because it is always needed, it's unlikely the case with a private living room.

 

 

We'll I suppose it one were to say modern pagans are not as close to things nor as qualified as their archaic ancestors then they might not be able to raise a place of energy and power like them.  Then just maybe you could assume you close something or opened it like them but not really have done so.  Yeah I know i'm being arrogant and condescending I suppose for daring to think outside the limits of the basic 101 books that get pushed and suggest they are the begin all and end all with their many Wiccan influenced ceremonial practices.

 

I don't find this arrogant, but I don't agree. Banishing entities who have been summoned is present in a lot of folk magic, at least where I come from. I also do not think that for each ritual you need a Stonehenge kind of experience. I think we are comparing two very different scales here, as of course a place where magic has supposedly been practiced for centuries will have a different kick to it than, again, my living room.

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Guest monsnoleedra

In fact, my experience with ceremonial circles is non-existent. I cannot contradict you here, as I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I agree that a lingering energy may still be present in the place of the working, but I believe this actually depends on the working your doing and on the banishing you're performing. I don't think it's either an open portal or nothing.

 

 

Again, I do not believe that each time one practices magic in a circle that is the same quality and amount of energy raised. Of course, continuous and powerful magic around a place / item in the long term will need to be managed properly.

 

I think you are missing an important point here. The places you mention were meant for public use, rituals would be performed almost daily. Possibly communities would gather around them. You need to keep a place like that open because it is always needed, it's unlikely the case with a private living room.

 

 

I don't find this arrogant, but I don't agree. Banishing entities who have been summoned is present in a lot of folk magic, at least where I come from. I also do not think that for each ritual you need a Stonehenge kind of experience. I think we are comparing two very different scales here, as of course a place where magic has supposedly been practiced for centuries will have a different kick to it than, again, my living room.

 

 

We have a great difference of opinion on what "Banishing" means.  In my teachings banishing a thing is to destroy its earthly form and drive it back to whatever plain of existence it originates from.  So its not something i'd do simply to do and at each event where I opened a conjuring / summoning circle.  Yes many culture's utilize banishing just like many use exorcism's to drive out unwanted or possessive spirits but its not something that is done simply to do it.  Especially in the content that anything at a ritual space has been called by the practitioner(s) either directly or by implied consent.  Implied consent falling into the realm of using elemental's, land spirits, etc who may come themselves or send a avatar or lessor spirit in their place to determine what is needed.  Figure the king is not going to come himself but send someone as his messenger, when dealing with daemons or demons the same pattern is often encountered as well.

 

You appear to be using banishing as I would use releasing.  I would release the wards, glyphs or boundaries I have created to focus and direct any energy stored or raised for some action.  Though the raising and storing of energy is where the vortex and creation of a hot spot comes into play.  You can never fully release what you've created and any spell you've created that does send forth something remains in operation and continues from the spot, the object or even the tie that binds the practitioner to their sacred place.  So your ritual / ceremony lasted lets say an hour the affects / effects of that last for what ever duration it takes to complete so its all tied back to where the point of origin is located though the stream moves forward and away from it.  So even though like a dam is opened the water released and the dam then closed, the pathway and network remains connected for any future action.  As such it can be followed back to its origin.  In some ways the way you use banishing reminds me of some stuff I was taught within a Stregian content but that was in regards to things like the evil eye or other malicious workings.

 

I'd thank any greater entities I called or invited to participate in my usage.  Figure an honoring ceremony you'd invite the gods / goddesses or greater / lessor entities you may have asked to be present.  If I bound something through summoning or conjuring and forcing it to appear then i'd unbind it and release it but not banish it when that would mean to destroy its earthly form which would prevent it from doing as I have asked or commanded.

 

I had a person once use the comparison of a piece of swiss chesse for how we work.  As practitioners we open a portal into a differing aspect of reality.  Each of us as a group or individual open these portals and they sort of become tagged to us.  Yet once done we can't fill it back it, we can cover it over, we can't do anything except to guard the portal entrance we created and opened.  So we devise objects that represent the theory of that portal opening to us and bring them together or separate them in the hopes if controls the portal or space we've created.  Sort of building a safe house over top of it and.  If we use many objects then we have it spread apart and the actual opening is smaller.  Yet if we draw it upon an item and use that item as the opening portal it stays the same size and the portal opening in fact moves with it.  Again we are bridging into a place that is not of this dimension or reality so it is not really bound to the limitations of this reality.

 

Sort of a side line note but the person also presented a really interesting argument that the origin of the flying carpet aligns to personal carpets being used as magical portals.  Create the design in the weaving or drawn upon the carpet itself.  Sit upon the carpet and you "Fly" to where ever or when ever you wish to go.  Then when done you roll the carpet up, store it away and wait until needed again.  But you place a magical safe word on the carpet so it can not be opened by chance or anyone else and have access to your flying carpet. So to the person on the carpet when, where or what they see and do matches many of the stories that come down.  Then the elements that get passed into the folk lore speak of the magical carpet that the person flies upon to visit so many places.

 

But the portal itself is always open.  Always something coming through though in most instances we try to narrow it down to a fine trickle of energy and use that energy to work our endeavors.  Then like some miner with their vein of gold we guard and hide the mine less someone else gain access to it.

 

That same concept is found at the temples, shrines, sanctuaries, etc about the world.  The public had access to the public areas where offerings, feasts, ceremonies, etc where held and performed.  Yet they were not the heart, soul and power source of those places.  Those were limited to only a couple of people who gained access to the innermost sacred places.  The spots where the statuary and such to the god / goddess where housed and brought forth from and returned to when the ceremonies and such were done.  So yes there is a sense of energy at the outer edges much like there is a sense of energy around most churches.  Yet the energy and presence of it gets stronger as you near the altar where the Priestess, Priest, Pastor, Reverend, etc is ridden and channels their God, god or goddess and speak to the people.  Basically one sits in the presence of their divinity and one is bathed and surrounded by the physical energy of their divinity.  A great many practitioner's I've known don't like to compare their magical workings to the layout of a divine working though much of the symbology and material components are the same when a sacred space is created and a power vortex is opened.  Me personally I think them the same the only difference being we tend to take the role of priest / priestess and make the energy do as we desire where the church uses the person as a figure head and prays in general in the hopes they can be heard.

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Hi moonsnsoledra,

 

We have a great difference of opinion on what "Banishing" means.  In my teachings banishing a thing is to destroy its earthly form and drive it back to whatever plain of existence it originates from.  So its not something i'd do simply to do and at each event where I opened a conjuring / summoning circle.  Yes many culture's utilize banishing just like many use exorcism's to drive out unwanted or possessive spirits but its not something that is done simply to do it.  Especially in the content that anything at a ritual space has been called by the practitioner(s) either directly or by implied consent.  Implied consent falling into the realm of using elemental's, land spirits, etc who may come themselves or send a avatar or lessor spirit in their place to determine what is needed.  Figure the king is not going to come himself but send someone as his messenger, when dealing with daemons or demons the same pattern is often encountered as well.

 

You appear to be using banishing as I would use releasing.  I would release the wards, glyphs or boundaries I have created to focus and direct any energy stored or raised for some action.  Though the raising and storing of energy is where the vortex and creation of a hot spot comes into play.  You can never fully release what you've created and any spell you've created that does send forth something remains in operation and continues from the spot, the object or even the tie that binds the practitioner to their sacred place.  

 

English is not my native language, nor the one in which I practice, sorry. But you are quite right. When I say banishing I mean what you would use for release (which in Italian normally goes some like 'congedare'). What you describe as banishing, I would call 'exorcism' (esorcizzare / esorcismo). To my experience, one can work several times in a place without keeping vortexes and portals all over the place. I really think that one should take scale into consideration here, and who is doing what, where, and with whom (and how many). And still continue to think that folk magic contains both banishing and releasing.

 

You can never fully release what you've created and any spell you've created that does send forth something remains in operation and continues from the spot, the object or even the tie that binds the practitioner to their sacred place.  So your ritual / ceremony lasted lets say an hour the affects / effects of that last for what ever duration it takes to complete so its all tied back to where the point of origin is located though the stream moves forward and away from it.  So even though like a dam is opened the water released and the dam then closed, the pathway and network remains connected for any future action.  As such it can be followed back to its origin.  In some ways the way you use banishing reminds me of some stuff I was taught within a Stregian content but that was in regards to things like the evil eye or other malicious workings.

 

I see what you mean, but, again, I think it depends. One may work in a ceremonial circle or in a more simple compass round. I do think there is flow that goes from the elements of the ritual (symbolic and material) to a target back and forth. As you mention stregoneria, it is a common practice in Italian witchcraft to work on these waves that keep going with workings of 'recall', especially when one is working alone. However, we tend to believe that with the disposal of the physical remains of the spell the that flow of energy tends to wither away. Of course, I am not talking here of working goetia, or invoking any great demons. I wouldn't do that in my living room. But even in that case, I think that places can be properly taken care of and managed. May be wrong.

 

The evil eye is sent away, or burnt. In both cases, ends up with someone else.

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Hi moonsnsoledra,

 

 

English is not my native language, nor the one in which I practice, sorry. But you are quite right. When I say banishing I mean what you would use for release (which in Italian normally goes some like 'congedare'). What you describe as banishing, I would call 'exorcism' (esorcizzare / esorcismo). To my experience, one can work several times in a place without keeping vortexes and portals all over the place. I really think that one should take scale into consideration here, and who is doing what, where, and with whom (and how many). And still continue to think that folk magic contains both banishing and releasing.

 

You can never fully release what you've created and any spell you've created that does send forth something remains in operation and continues from the spot, the object or even the tie that binds the practitioner to their sacred place.  So your ritual / ceremony lasted lets say an hour the affects / effects of that last for what ever duration it takes to complete so its all tied back to where the point of origin is located though the stream moves forward and away from it.  So even though like a dam is opened the water released and the dam then closed, the pathway and network remains connected for any future action.  As such it can be followed back to its origin.  In some ways the way you use banishing reminds me of some stuff I was taught within a Stregian content but that was in regards to things like the evil eye or other malicious workings.

 

I see what you mean, but, again, I think it depends. One may work in a ceremonial circle or in a more simple compass round. I do think there is flow that goes from the elements of the ritual (symbolic and material) to a target back and forth. As you mention stregoneria, it is a common practice in Italian witchcraft to work on these waves that keep going with workings of 'recall', especially when one is working alone. However, we tend to believe that with the disposal of the physical remains of the spell the that flow of energy tends to wither away. Of course, I am not talking here of working goetia, or invoking any great demons. I wouldn't do that in my living room. But even in that case, I think that places can be properly taken care of and managed. May be wrong.

 

The evil eye is sent away, or burnt. In both cases, ends up with someone else.

 

And yet it's more grammatically correct than most I've seen for whom English is their first language (at least in your writing). :wink:

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  • 1 month later...

 

When I used circles for the first time I bought a round carpet the size I liked, flipped over I could draw on the bottom side. I drew a cross on it for the four directions with a permanent marker.

 

...you mean...a magic carpet? :vhappywitch:

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In classical magic, 'flying carpets' were used for visionary journeys. But these are not of the same construction or use as a magic circle. The magic circles were intended to be drawn outside in the dirt and only completed once one entered, then construction was completed.

 

Many people today use permanently drawn circles, in rooms or on dropcloths, or on carpets, but they are not in themselves magical. One still has to draw them symbolically, using the same tools one would create them in the dirt, and THEN empower them with prayer/magic. But once broken they are no longer operable. No magic without the magic. Just roll up the carpet or fold the cloth, no problem. Still, one must practice good energetic hygiene.

 

Not entirely certain if these things pertain to Luciferian magic in particular, as I don't care for Ford's work, and discontinued any interest in him after one book, but yeah.....

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In classical magic, 'flying carpets' were used for visionary journeys. But these are not of the same construction or use as a magic circle. The magic circles were intended to be drawn outside in the dirt and only completed once one entered, then construction was completed.

 

Many people today use permanently drawn circles, in rooms or on dropcloths, or on carpets, but they are not in themselves magical. One still has to draw them symbolically, using the same tools one would create them in the dirt, and THEN empower them with prayer/magic. But once broken they are no longer operable. No magic without the magic. Just roll up the carpet or fold the cloth, no problem. Still, one must practice good energetic hygiene.

 

Not entirely certain if these things pertain to Luciferian magic in particular, as I don't care for Ford's work, and discontinued any interest in him after one book, but yeah.....

I gave up on Ford too... A story for a whole different thread...I'm still repairing energetic damage. I like the drop cloth idea even if I'm not doing ceremonial magick. Nice to have a visual boundary. I'd still smudge it when done just to be safe.

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Definitely, and still so many authors do not do it. I also do not see why the carpet should be of concern if the working has been closed with the proper banishments at the end.

Just to add to the circle tricks. With the years, one thing that I look for in a new house is a space where a circle can be drawn. Then I try to keep the space free of furniture, or with just few furnitures around, and easily movable. When I draw a compass round I like to see the lines, so I keep a piece of chalk attached to a cord to draw the circle. During the banishment, the lines are also swept away, the furnitures put back in place and nothing ever happened.

I love this idea!

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...you mean...a magic carpet? :vhappywitch:

-----

Well, you don't know what

We can find

Why don't you come with me little girl

On a magic carpet ride

 

:)

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My Beloved is a stone mason. Someday, he's going to build me a round patio with a star built into the stone work. We've been kicking around some ideas for placement and size and stuff. It's really exciting.

 

Where can you find the really big metal stars that people decorated their houses with. I have a peak that needs either a star or an old Amish thingy that I can't remember the name of.

 

So, yeah, I totally get what Aurilian is saying about securely closing the physical when it's not in use. I love that I'll have the layout and when I do Ritual I'll go over it with the different elements to build it. (Really excited about those future plans) And since the patio itself will be round it won't be ab obvious pentacle in my back yard.

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My Beloved is a stone mason. Someday, he's going to build me a round patio with a star built into the stone work. We've been kicking around some ideas for placement and size and stuff. It's really exciting.

---

That sounds quite wonderful! However, I would like to caution anyone installing a permanent magical fixture (like a stone patio) to not to use a magnetic compass when positioning the star if you're trying to achieve perfect N/E/S/W alignment. The magnetic poles are constantly shifting ("creeping"), so programming the coordinates of the geographic north pole into a GPS to determine exact positioning of North would be a better method.

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Guest monsnoleedra

But now your getting into the state of true north, magnetic north vs relative north. It works for navigation and it works for magical endeavors. Figure relative is based upon the assumption that where ever your looking North is based upon a relationship to your nose's direction. While many times it can align with true north, not to be confused with magnetic north, it doesn't have to be. As a relative position it also align's to the sacred directions concept and ones relationship and position to them.

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The sun comes up in the east and sets in the west. The moss grows on the north side of the trees. How hard can it really be guys?

 

I already equate the elements in regards to their geographic placement. For me - Water is east The Atlantic Ocean is east of me. Land is north - there's a continent north and northwest of me. Fire is in the west - when the sky is lit with sundown. Air is South (a little closer to south west - that's just the way it blows across here).

 

I have my own way of doing things. They work for me. For others - the gps coordinates may matter more. I'm much less technical than I was previously. It's really kinda freeing.

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The state of 'true north' or 'magnetic north' relates not at all to trad craft. It's based on locality, and there are reasons for this. Why are we discussing this?

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My garden is a medicine wheel and it's aligned to magnetic north. "True" north, at that time, was 6 degrees off (I'm aware the poles shift). 6 degrees, or whatever it may be today, isn't enough to bother me. After all, it's the intent that counts in magic, right? ;)

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Was just offering some info to those, like myself, who take pleasure in occasionally blending scientific precision into their Crafting. Wasn't trying to tell anyone what to do or how to do it, for goodness' sake!

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Guest monsnoleedra

 

The state of 'true north' or 'magnetic north' relates not at all to trad craft. It's based on locality, and there are reasons for this. Why are we discussing this?

 

That's both true and false from my perspective.

 

From a land based craft direction and such are pretty much based on locality i'd agree. Yet from those craft's that are based upon sea and ocean or navigation understanding and usage is very much a critical aspect of it. Once out of sight of land and compass and position becomes a life threatening or saving situation. It becomes as critical a factor as celestial movements and navigation do in ones workings.

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The state of 'true north' or 'magnetic north' relates not at all to trad craft. It's based on locality, and there are reasons for this. Why are we discussing this?

 

====

I can resonate with this mostly because rather than using North or the rising/setting of the sun as an index for my garden each year I will divine by reading the frost during winter. My gardens are never aligned in the same direction, and sometimes the location makes a difference too, where does the sun hit at 9am, where does it hit at 5pm. Is there any shade and what direction is it hitting? Where are the winds prevailing from during early spring? (I live in a meadow hollow so it can change from year to year.) Is erosion causing runoff to different areas this year? Are there any fairy rings? (good indicator of healthy soils) Using a compass in other aspects seems like it would be common sense because the directions never change...North is always North... but when dealing with organic life I take a more organic and ever-changing approach to direction.

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Sorry guys, I realize now that my last post was in error and misplaced, as we're discussing ceremonial applications in Other Occult Practices. So I apologize for that, my bad. I was both in a bad mood and extremely sleep-deprived when I made that post, but feeling much better now!

 

Yeah, while practicing ceremonial magic, it is a good idea to be as precise as possible with things, and to follow tradition to a T in order to get best results. I'm in total agreement with you guys, there. Once you start achieving results and fully understand the material, I think, only then is it safe to begin experimenting.

 

And of course, we all practice a little differently, there is no one set way to do things as a traditional worker.

 

Caps, yeah, I use the same method as what you have described above! In my location, I have mountains to the direct west, and there is quite a large lake to my direct north, so I have adjusted elemental-directional correspondences accordingly, and use them as such in my day-to-day magic. While practicing evocation, though, I do stick with the instructions as they are set out in the relevant grimoire.

 

Interesting discussion, here! :witch_bounce:

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