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The curse of road kill parts...


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#21 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 01:10 AM

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Hi Monsno,

 

This is not entirely accurate. In tantra for example, it is a traditional idea to prefer the use of a human femur bone or skull cap taken from a criminal or from someone who died a traumatic, accidental, or violent death (executions included) to make a kangling or kapala for ritual purposes. There may be other instances/traditions where this is also true-I don't know for sure, but my guess is probably "yes". Not saying I agree or disagree with this practice...Just saying is all. Granted, you did say human bones wouldn't be used like this under "normal" circumstances. That, however, depends on your definition of normal, I guess.

 

Other than that, I can appreciate your post and respect your opinion-but this is not generally the way I personally do things. If something calls out to me, I will take it and use it. If it doesn't, I won't. For me, each situation will be different. I guess, for me, the bottom line is "it depends".

 

Enjoyed reading your post though.

 

 

Oh I understand the use of human parts but those are normally more maligned or malcontent in purpose in my experience and knowledge.  Sort of like the old stories of the Hand of Glory taken from a thief or killer and used as a candle in many of the earlier books about Satanism and Witchcraft.  Not saying if the need or purpose arose I wouldn't use them but as a norm its not something people are normally going to do, especially in many western traditions.  In Eastern traditions its been a bit different, some might compare the old thuggee cult to Kali as examples of the maligned influence.  I suppose the notion of LHP ans RHP as coming out of India / Tibet would potentially also fall into usage of human remains that are typically outside normative western practices.

 

The Kapala stuff reminds me of the holy relic that is to be found in many Catholic churches as relics from some martyr or saint.  Granted not quite the same usage but the semi enshrinement of human parts based upon goodness or evilness of the person.  But then how many kapala's are actually human skull remains versus how many are actually molded material?  In India / Tibet probably a number of ancient ones are, in the US and Europe probably more are molded copies than actual human remains.  I suppose one might equate it to how many human shrunken heads are there compared to copies that are made to resemble them.

 

But thank you for reminding me of the Kapala's and tantric influences.  Off topic but do you know if the Kapala is more aligned to Red or Black Tantric practices?  Always heard red but that dealt more with sexual than physical in the sense of death, destruction and blood to my understanding.


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#22 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 01:50 AM

Everything that dies, dies of something. If you can see the animal getting hit by a car, can you also see the animal being eaten by a disease, or a fox, or a bear, or a whatever? Can you also see the animal playing in the grass as a pup (or young whatever it was), and nursing at its mother's teat? Can you see it hiding during a storm, sunning on a rock? Just because it eventually died by a car rather than by a disease or by being eaten, doesn't erase its experiences, nor the memory of those experiences, nor the memory of its species.

 

I'm not into animal sacrifice. I know some people are, its just not personally my thing. And if I needed crow bones, and I found a dead crow in the road, I'd certainly use them over killing a live crow. Why waste a life? Why waste free bones? Why kill something else needlessly? 

 

But everyone practices their craft differently, so there will be a million differing opinions on it, lol. None are right or wrong, depending on one's path and to what one answers, lol. That's one thing I like about winter - no mosquitoes, lol...

 

 

I agree that everything dies.  Some will die of old age, some of some disease or issues that takes them out, some from being prey.

 

Yet the creature that dies by being crushed and broken dies a death far different than life's normal means of thinning the herds for instance.  Now one might be able to reach the super species of a given creature and talk to that aspect.  One might even be able to eventually touch the spirit of the creature that existed prior to the event.  Yet like some human who has gone rogue the odds of doing so are highly unlikely.  How many layers of suffering, pain, anger, frustration does one have to manipulate their way through before they reach that inner calm or take that leap to the greater species?  Consider the rogue wolf, he / she is outcast from the pack and both shunned and even killed because of that condition.  The rogue lion is pretty much the same and if it is able to gain dominance it will kill the offspring of its competitors if it doesn't then it is driven away perhaps even killed itself.

 

I find people like to see the best of things and often refuse to consider that things can be corrupted by events, disease or death.  That the spirit clings to the bones and can be as maligned and corrupted more so in death than it was in life.  That even animals can have the capacity for vengeance and destruction.  That their spirits can be so warped that the amount of time and effort needed to go beyond the event and reach the higher self, the higher species  or caring self that it makes the task nearly impossible.  What turns a creature from its nature into something that kills for fun?  That destroys simply to destroy or cause pain and suffering.  That makes it so warped that the final impressions upon its life overrides and perhaps even over writes its own true nature and connections to self and its higher species.

 

If one looks to the restless dead in their many forms and many tales, legends and stories certain types of death are held accountable for it quite often.  Look to an animal and its energy and mindset after it has chewed its leg off to escape a trap.  It strikes at everything and anything as it becomes infused with the pain, fear, struggle to survive and extreme to escape.  How many roads, trails, highways, etc are haunted by the spirits of animals that had life snatched away so painfully that they remain trapped there seeking to escape and trying to strike out at that thing which inflicted it all upon them and seeing everything as the thing that caused all of it?  

 

Of course one can say they are just animals and not capable of such deep emotional suffering or experiences.  One can say they have no soul or spirit and once life has left the carcass its just bones and skin.  One can say many things to justify to themselves why they do a thing.  Though to me those justifications seem to pale when you see the shimmers or shadows, hear the spectral cries and witness the constant struggle to escape and the attempts to strike out at what ever it was that caused it.

 

I admit to me its the shamanic and animist aspects of my pathwalk that make me see, feel and sense that so others may never see it, feel it or hear it as I do.  Not saying nor implying they are lessor because of it only that we are different in our motivations and reasonings.

 

Sometimes a creature can be set to peace and passes over.  Sometimes the spirit can be approached and its suffering ended and its purity touched and the spirit healed.  Sometimes though no matter what you do it is the snarling animal that struggles to flee yet fights the pain, anger, frustration and all that comes near it as its spirit is locked in an unending death.  Sadly I find many times roadkill's are those spirits that are locked in their unending deaths and cling to the though of life as they try to escape and seek safety in the woods, fields, swamps, etc where no of that lingers to them.  They are to equate them to the movies the Michael Myers locked in their own minds and energy and striking at everything and anything in the hopes of gaining freedom and painlessness.   

 

But again all of us have to walk the pathway before us and how it calls to us so there is theoretically no right or wrong just the manner, ethics and beliefs we hold that guide us as individuals as we walk along the highways and roads of our lives.


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#23 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 02:06 AM

This reminds me of a story of a cursed table. It was made of wood from some small town in a European country.,  From the door of a cottage. The table had been the kitchen table, and the family had been killed in the kitchen during the war. Not by a bomb but by soldiers who killed the family in horrible ways, and the lady was the last to die after her husband and her children had been killed before her eyes. A lady who was afraid to have children for fear of losing something she would love so much was shopping for tables. And she bought this one. Long story short, she started having conversations with the memories that were attached to the table. And she saw the fear and terror and horror of the last memory. But as she continued to talk to the memories, and to go further back, she also saw the good memories, the daily life, the hopes, joys, the hungry times and the harvests. And the memories told her that the last memory does not erase all the good memories. Nor does the horrible memory have the power to take away the joy of the wonderful memories unless we give it that power. And the lady decided she would have children, because she had learned that whatever happened, nothing could erase the love she felt, and that memories can last forever, but it's up to us to choose which ones we give power.

 

If you are working with bones, it will be up to the witch to dictate which memories are made powerful, are called upon, which traits and aspects are called to the top. All bones hold good and bad experiences. The last memory only holds sway if we do not dictate to the memories/traits which one is being called upon.

 

M

 

As a counter point call up the spirit and body of a person who died at Auschwitz through a painful and traumatic death.  Call up the spirit of the person or people whose lives were lost on say the Titanic and those final moments or seconds imprinted upon their minds, souls and spirits.  Go to any battlefield and call up the spirit of human or animal and the pain, sufferings, fear, struggle to survive and see what lingers there.  Call up any spirit that lost its life under overly traumatic conditions or situations and tell them to think before that event.  Then tell me how the witch made them see the life they had before hand or forget the fear, anger, frustration, and all the other emotions and sensations that were the final acts of their life.   Being crushed and broken as roadkill is no different to that spirit than the spirit that was caused to suffer the same type of trauma and crushing death.

 

Sorry people like to talk and think they can change what was felt and how it impacted upon those beings at those places, times or situations.  Yet the number of spirits, haunts, whatever you want to call them says it doesn't work that way.  Well not unless you start out under the premise that animals are not real beings capable of experiencing human like emotions and reasoning.  Unless they are just dumb animals.


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#24 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 02:16 AM

For me its not a one size fits all kind of situation. Whether its road kill or an animal lying dead in the forest I follow my intuition and senses to see what is or is not the appropriate things to do. One of the forests I frequent has a road running through a part of it and I have come across road kill quite a few times. Usually I am working with the forest spirit there so I  get guidance from them, sometimes its to move the animal and bury it, sometimes its to move it and leave it uncovered for other animals (I got the impression the forest spirit had the deer killed on purpose as food for others). Sometimes I have been told to take a certain part but bury the rest. I have also been lead back to a badger (by a badger spirit) I buried to retrieve its skull.  Its the same when I find dead animals in the forest, although thats much more rare, usually its just bones.

 

Sometimes theres a sense of great pain and anguish but sometimes theres a sense of completeness, that whats done was meant to be done for a purpose beyond human insight. In all cases the bones and parts I kept have worked well for me.

 

 

I agree its not a one size fits all situation nor way to respond.  Seen it myself where the forest or land wrights have made a sacrifice for the betterment of the landscape and used whatever means was available to cause the sacrifice.  Sort of like the situation where your watching the events unfold and you ask yourself why as nothing else makes sense and even the very creature itself didn't seem to be acting as it should.  At times even as if it was not acting in its own mind, as if something else where driving or pushing it.

 

Yet again from my experience there seems to be something different in the feel of it all.  Sometimes its a pull that brings you to the place and you hold the final act in the play and the roadkill was a means to an end.  Yet the spirit of the creature often seems aware of the why of it.  It knows you are there to finish some aspect and its the final step to releasing it.  Of opening the gates as it were that allows it to drop the final earthly garb and separate from its physical body.  Something that tells you do this, bury that, leave this here or there and take some part as both thanks but also as part of the sacrificial offering.

 

Depending upon the person you may have been under conditioning for days by whatever force, land wright, Lessor or Greater Spirit of Place that was moving all the parts into place.

 

But its different than the creature that was killed and left its spirit hanging connected or trapped to the flesh and bones that lay broken and crushed upon the spot.


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#25 Michele

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 04:09 AM

...  Well not unless you start out under the premise that animals are not real beings capable of experiencing human like emotions and reasoning.  Real beings, yes. Capable of "human" emotions, no.

 

Unless they are just dumb animals...  Not my words, perhaps your interpretation of them.

 

But I guess we all have different ways of seeing things and doing things.


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#26 Anara

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 01:37 PM

Oh I understand the use of human parts but those are normally more maligned or malcontent in purpose in my experience and knowledge.  Sort of like the old stories of the Hand of Glory taken from a thief or killer and used as a candle in many of the earlier books about Satanism and Witchcraft.  Not saying if the need or purpose arose I wouldn't use them but as a norm its not something people are normally going to do, especially in many western traditions.  In Eastern traditions its been a bit different, some might compare the old thuggee cult to Kali as examples of the maligned influence.  I suppose the notion of LHP ans RHP as coming out of India / Tibet would potentially also fall into usage of human remains that are typically outside normative western practices.

 

The Kapala stuff reminds me of the holy relic that is to be found in many Catholic churches as relics from some martyr or saint.  Granted not quite the same usage but the semi enshrinement of human parts based upon goodness or evilness of the person.  But then how many kapala's are actually human skull remains versus how many are actually molded material?  In India / Tibet probably a number of ancient ones are, in the US and Europe probably more are molded copies than actual human remains.  I suppose one might equate it to how many human shrunken heads are there compared to copies that are made to resemble them.

 

But thank you for reminding me of the Kapala's and tantric influences.  Off topic but do you know if the Kapala is more aligned to Red or Black Tantric practices?  Always heard red but that dealt more with sexual than physical in the sense of death, destruction and blood to my understanding.

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A quick google search will tell you more about the types of kapala available now, if you are interested. To the point of molded material versus human material, I think you will find much more molded material out there, as well as from animal sources (like kapala made from monkey skulls for example). Human material is harder to find, and quite costly.

 

To the question regarding the actual uses of kapala/human remains in tantra, I gathered this information for you-the following is from my husband; If you want to find more in depth answers to your great questions, I encourage you to find a local Sri Vidya temple or a Shaivite priest in your area for the best answers. You could certainly also contact a Buddhist Lama or other Buddhist clergy and inquire.

 

Regarding the different types of uses within other traditions, that is beyond my scope of true understanding-so I will leave more in depth comments of possible various uses to those around here that might have a deeper understanding of them.

 

I'll also say the hand of glory and mention of a specific Kali cult provides good evidence to back up your earlier statement about darker uses of human remains- as does the mention of Catholic saint relics for glorification of "good deeds" in the Catholic religion. Just like everything else though, there are two sides to every coin. From my own experience and knowledge, I think the use of a tool and the result of that use depend heavily on the operator too. JMO. :biggrin:


Edited by Anara, 12 October 2014 - 01:38 PM.

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#27 Aurelian

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 07:35 PM

I find that when animals die, they do not hover, and their spirits do not stay attached to the corpse, under most circumstances.  They basically flash out are absorbed into the spirit of that species in that area.  So no, I wouldn't consider roadkill cursed, but I don't tend to collect critters or their parts unless I have something in mind for them.  I know several people who do, however, and they have no trouble with what has been collected.


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"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:17 AM

I find that when animals die, they do not hover, and their spirits do not stay attached to the corpse, under most circumstances.  They basically flash out are absorbed into the spirit of that species in that area.  So no, I wouldn't consider roadkill cursed, but I don't tend to collect critters or their parts unless I have something in mind for them.  I know several people who do, however, and they have no trouble with what has been collected.

 

 

Let me preface this with not saying your wrong so please don't think that is what this response is about.

 

I used to think very similar to that until I came across what I can only define as an animal funeral.  In the totality of my life i've only had the pleasure of witnessing one of these and then only by pure chance did I witness this one.

 

Imagine coming upon the body of a deer and watching other deer surround it in almost circular fashion.  All the deer facing the corpse and you'd swear having a moment of silence as they looked upon it. A few of them snorting and almost looked like they were pawing the ground to toss dirt at it.  I would come back later and discover the whole group bedded down around the area as there were many bedding spots where the deer had lain close to it.  More than the usual birds were in the tree's and singing and there were a lot of smaller rodents and such.  Later on I got close to the carcass and there was a trail that circled the body where you could tell quite a few creatures has walked around the body.

 

I never could tell how the deer had died nor saw any wounds that showed.  Yet on the day I stumbled upon it and a few days after the whole area was different.  May sound crazy but it was almost as if the whole of the area had come to pay last respects to the fallen deer.  No clear lines into the area, yet a clear trail circling the body.  Lots of different paw prints in the soft soil so you could identify some of the creature's, even a few larger bird tracks like some wadding bird or larger bird had walked about it.

 

The whole thing in a real narrow ravine that went up into the mountains behind us and opened up into a wider ravine as it went down into the valley below towards the river.  For a long tie that carcass remained there untouched that I could see then one day it was simply gone.  Almost as if it were picked up and carried off as there was no drag markings or remnants of the body being torn apart. 

 

I can only describe it as a funeral the way the animals and birds acted.  Very somber yet different than anything else i'd ever encountered in the woods before or after that day.  I know the animals were aware I was observing it and all the normal alert indicators they normally do never happened.

 

 I have always felt there was a greater Spirit of Place in that area and perhaps that was the reason or driving force behind what I saw which is why it was different.  I just know it changed how I viewed all the 2 & 4 legs, winged ones and even the standing ones.  Even the stone people were different that day.

 

It definitely told or reminded me though that humanity is simply another animal in the kingdom and are not the only ones who feel and do things.


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#29 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:23 AM

 

...  Well not unless you start out under the premise that animals are not real beings capable of experiencing human like emotions and reasoning.  Real beings, yes. Capable of "human" emotions, no.

 

Unless they are just dumb animals...  Not my words, perhaps your interpretation of them.

 

But I guess we all have different ways of seeing things and doing things.

 

 

 

I agree different ways of seeing and doing things.  Not bad and sometimes I find another's perspective has aided me greatly in understanding things or giving me a reason to think deeper about something than my own interest would inspire or suggest.  For making me think and consider alternative usages and practices I thank you, otherwise I might become trapped in my own opinions and conclusions.


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#30 Christine

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:04 AM

This is so interesting, I keep reading over the posts on this thread. I have said before that I do not work with bones, due to issues in getting permission. So obviously I am the opposite of an expert. However, reading what other witches have reported about working with bones, I have had the impression that a sudden death, whether from accident or ritual, makes the spirit more accessible.

On the other hand, maybe being treated with respect is beneficial to the spirit in some way, regardless whether you wind up using it in craft or do not. Certainly it must be an improvement over being thrown in a landfill.  


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#31 Aurelian

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:13 AM

Fascinating response, thanks for sharing that Monsno :)


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"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning." - Cormac McCarthy

#32 CelticGypsy

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 01:35 AM

Within the past 2 weeks, we've had to put in a new drain field on our property. Bring it up to code and all that, repair what was not working. Where they had to dig was where I buried the Owl that I hit with my truck coming home from work 2 years ago. 

 

I did all that I knew and was prompted to do for that Owl before I gleaned from its lifeless body. I gifted folks here with feathers for their workings. I buried it with respect and reverence and gratitude.  Now I have it's bones, I'm not giving any tittle of a thought as to a possible curse for the accidental cause of it's death. The Owl lives on in my home,  it has not been carried off by another animal predator to be torn to shreds as a possible meal of " road kill. " The bones speak to me. I hold them dear to me. They are teaching me, and I am humbled by what they have revealed.

 

 

Regards,

Gypsy


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#33 RoseRed

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:30 PM

But how many people show reverence or respect such as you have?

 

That's truly beautiful, CG.


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#34 phantasmagoria

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 03:32 AM

Wow, I love the varied takes in this thread.

 

I've been collecting roadkill parts for quite some time now and have never encountered any curse-like energies. My method, though, is one of great reverence - I release the spirit, send healing into the body and to the past (Reiki is great for this), and perform whatever ritualistic elements are being called for in the situation - most of the time a minor burial (leaves/sticks). As Aurielian wrote, though, much of the time the spirits have already left - I find this happens a lot with squirrels. They are hit by cars so often that I feel as though the species has an "automatic release" and thus my rituals are sometimes more symbolic than functional, but it is also true that in some level, on some reality, the spirit is still there and needs to be helped off into the light. I also find that squirrels really like to be used by me for their parts - they are such showoffy creatures while alive.

 

I also find that by me taking of the body parts, giving thanks to the spirit, and providing a burial is inevitably what may complete the circle to validate the life, as opposed to leaving it to be further defiled. Its death was cruel; if a human may bless and make a connection with the spirit of the animal only after its death, it eases the pain of the event. As some others mentioned, through the conscious work of the witch, the positive memories and attributes of the life of the animal may be brought out.

 

I also find that only certain roadkills will call me to them - sometimes in a mundane way (such as I can or cannot stop at the time) and sometimes intuitively. 

 

One could also say that all forms of death ultimately come from the mind of the creator, and as such all deaths are "natural." To some degree I agree with this, and then again I'm not sure - maybe it's a problem of terminology. I remember a moment walking with friends years ago wherein I found a roadkill squirrel and moved it to the grass off the road, and one of the group teased me, citing that all of our environment is just as natural as the rest. I do find, though, that roadkill animals greatly prefer to have their bodies physically touching the dirt of Earth. It could be that the permission to obtain the body parts is given as an exchange for assisting the spirit of the animal in making sure its body is properly placed in accordance with the laws of Gaia.

 

 

 

I used to think very similar to that until I came across what I can only define as an animal funeral.  In the totality of my life i've only had the pleasure of witnessing one of these and then only by pure chance did I witness this one.

 

Imagine coming upon the body of a deer and watching other deer surround it in almost circular fashion.  All the deer facing the corpse and you'd swear having a moment of silence as they looked upon it. A few of them snorting and almost looked like they were pawing the ground to toss dirt at it.  I would come back later and discover the whole group bedded down around the area as there were many bedding spots where the deer had lain close to it.  More than the usual birds were in the tree's and singing and there were a lot of smaller rodents and such.  Later on I got close to the carcass and there was a trail that circled the body where you could tell quite a few creatures has walked around the body.

 

I never could tell how the deer had died nor saw any wounds that showed.  Yet on the day I stumbled upon it and a few days after the whole area was different.  May sound crazy but it was almost as if the whole of the area had come to pay last respects to the fallen deer.  No clear lines into the area, yet a clear trail circling the body.  Lots of different paw prints in the soft soil so you could identify some of the creature's, even a few larger bird tracks like some wadding bird or larger bird had walked about it.

 

The whole thing in a real narrow ravine that went up into the mountains behind us and opened up into a wider ravine as it went down into the valley below towards the river.  For a long tie that carcass remained there untouched that I could see then one day it was simply gone.  Almost as if it were picked up and carried off as there was no drag markings or remnants of the body being torn apart. 

 

I can only describe it as a funeral the way the animals and birds acted.  Very somber yet different than anything else i'd ever encountered in the woods before or after that day.  I know the animals were aware I was observing it and all the normal alert indicators they normally do never happened.

 

 I have always felt there was a greater Spirit of Place in that area and perhaps that was the reason or driving force behind what I saw which is why it was different.  I just know it changed how I viewed all the 2 & 4 legs, winged ones and even the standing ones.  Even the stone people were different that day.

 

It definitely told or reminded me though that humanity is simply another animal in the kingdom and are not the only ones who feel and do things.

 

Wow, that is incredibly profound and the most beautiful of scenes... thank you for sharing this moment. What a blessing to witness. The animals truly welcomed you into their world.


Edited by phantasmagoria, 18 October 2014 - 03:38 AM.

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#35 Michele

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 02:10 PM

I, personally, don't believe animals can be compared to humans intellectually or emotionally. Wild animals face these fears daily. If one looks at nature - really looks, not just sees the surface of some things - ever see a cat eat a lizard? Ever see a bear eat a salmon? Nature can appear very cruel to human conception, and if anyone thinks road kill is any more traumatized than death via being eaten alive, or raised in food-farms without beak or legs and then offed prior to being put into a nice little clean grocery-store package, then they are, in my opinion, mistaken. Animals don't have the same psychology as humans. They don't anticipate death in the way that humans do. That does not mean they should to be treated inhumanely or that humans are of more importance in the greater existence of things, but to me it needs to be understood if one is working with animal bones. 

 

If anyone picks up bones in the wild it could be a mistake to assume they had less trauma in death than road kill. My cat caught an iguana and chewed off and ate it from the "waist" down. I found the iguana pulling itself across my living room on the "stumps" of it's front legs with no back-body or tail and leaving a bloody trail behind it. That was a natural death - eat or be eaten. Did I have compassion for the poor thing? Yes. Did I put it to peace and out of it's misery? Yes - I returned the left-over body to a wild area near here. And if some person found it's bones and took them home thinking it died a less traumatic death than road-kill.... well, it was unfortunately a much more natural and suffering death than a quick car-hit. That is the nature of nature. Live or die, survival of the fittest, eat or be eaten. It does not mean that one should be without compassion, but it doesn't mean that what nature does is less traumatic that what human's cars do. It's part of life, part of death, and it all goes together. Humans, who have the ability to psychologically (as opposed to instinctually) fear death are different in what they leave behind. Very few things in the wild die of peaceful old age. Domesticated animals, yes, but wild, no. I love animals and I love my pets and care for them well, but I understand the difference between my psychology and their psychology.

 

M


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#36 RoseRed

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:01 PM

I've never really given this much thought.  I love the different points of view that have been expressed here so far.


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#37 Nabu

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 05:45 AM

Monsnoleedra there is no doubt that what you conveyed / shared with the members here was a very special and unique event that probably few , if any , here have or will partake . It evidently was allowed so that you were shown / enlightened to a perspective of life and death in the animal kingdom that perhaps you had some wonder / pondering of . It seems from your tale , should be also passed down to your young , struck a cord with the compassionate valley in you.Your senses felt the pain, reverence and loss of the attendance, and that was part of the answer . The rest is what you can and will do with is a matter of future to pass. I do have differing views than most with the regards of death animal or human- we are all destined to do so , there is no argument. Over the years I have found many different animal bones , skulls even a nice sized turtle / tortoise shell , and each find I felt it was a treasure / gift bestowed upon me by the spirit of the land and waters that run upon it ( there are bottoms to creeks , rivers , and oceans - that is land with water on top of it ) . I was pleasantly surprised and joyed at the most recent ( a couple of weeks ago ) find of a crow skull with most of the backbone attached. It apparently had been the feast of some other creature , I suspect a cat, not sure as the feathers were natty and not really well intact and the feathers and skull was what was left.

Now I wasn't the one that took the life of the crow , but I did say thank you to the spirits of the area , as I have done with all my finds. What I will do with any of my collection only time will tell me , but they are with me and it does give me the opportunity to learn from them , just as the animals of the deer event offered up something for you to learn.

We all learn different things from nature - beauty , grace , reverence , life that also feeds another's life . We harvest plants from gardens, wild fields, forests . Hunting animals has always been a means of feeding ourselves and family . One just has to keep a positive perspective and know that if someone or something should die , that it be for the benefit of something or someone . We can't keep all of the world safe from harm , but we do have the obligation to at least offer a prayer for it in this life and the next .

I do understand the point you have presented on the possibility of pain and anguish being transferred to the bone collector , it  just comes down to what the collector will gleam from the find .

 

Respectfully,

Nabu


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#38 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 09:14 AM

Death and the types or degree's of death is certainly a viable subject for another time I think.

 

What I find interesting is that the majority want to see bones as a gift to them and not the possibility that they could or might be cursed.  In many ways it's like the bones taken from the earth which we call minerals, crystals, etc.  People don't want to think those could be cursed either yet things such as the Hope Diamond tell us otherwise.  Certain jewels, stones, rocks have all at times been found to have some degree of cursing upon them and one can only assume the cursor was the earth itself.  Granted not every item mined has been cursed but nor has every item mined been clean yet common pagans will say let me cleanse this item and its useful.  A position to me which is truly interesting, they will clean out something that has been ingrained in its very creation.

 

Wild or tame there are many animals which have been harmed and nothing that is done removes that fear during their life.  A fear that might be years in the making or even in a moments action.  Nor does it touch upon the diseased creature that suffers right to the depths of its bones and makes it act outside of its normal behavior.  In that regard mankind amuses me.  Hey I found some raccoon bones, yet can't equate it to the scare of rabies that has plagued the raccoon population in a given area.  Nope its a gift that I found and they are certain there is nothing connected to it.  After all rabies is a disease not a curse, well except to the creature that actually has it.

 

Seen the bones of a rabid creature used once as a cursing item.  Plays hell on the person said disease and curse is aimed at.  Played hell on the person who used them as well though not to the same degree.  Items of that nature I was taught are best used when a bit of flesh still hangs upon the bones and the spirit is still closer in its pain and insanity.  Yet it never truly looses the insanity and takes many generations in the here after before it's energy will be cleaned and the spirit returned to its state.

 

I admit I see things differently in that regard.  Maybe because I had the fortune or misfortune to actually have died and been declared clinically dead.  To have crossed to the veil and been greeted by my family and ancestors.  To be bathed in that place then told it was not my time and I was to go back and live this life.  Changes you for certain, like dreams that linger and come unbidden in the dark of night.  Some fade with the passage of time and the age of the experience which makes them all the more confusing in that the energy, vision and experience grows dim compared to the years that pass after it.  Yet like the proverbial bolt of lightning something may strike and teleport you right back to the veil.  To realize that it was more than just people who were at the veil though the spirits seemed moving in different directions as they came and went.  Imagination?  Who knows I wasn't old enough to have much of one so things were pretty black and white and un-corrupted by life yet.

 

For me its not a matter of what the collector will gleam from it.  It's a matter of what life was in it and how it was taken and the life experienced by it.  It's not some stamp to be sough after and collected and added to ones collection of odds and ends but the remains of a living entity with a imprint of its life.  A ghost with no form that appears to mankind to linger above the spot or denote who or what it was.  Yet a ghost none the less.  But then I suppose I see life differently and how the spirit or soul is composed more along the Egyptian (Kemetic) format with many parts and each gets weighted in measuring a things life or what is left behind.

 

I wonder at times when I hear people say they gave thanks for the body would they be so willing to offer such a low value truth were it human remains they were collecting?  It's sad but a lot of times I am reminded of the Pirates of the Caribbean movie where in order to release Calypso you have to free her with love.  Then only one person really understood it though others said it or advised on how to offer her both freedom and thanks for her sacrifice.  Some walk the walk, some talk the talk but so few it seems actually both walk and talk it all.   Not saying nor implying I am placing that upon anyone who reads here as that is not my place nor desire just how I see things in general most times.


Edited by monsnoleedra, 21 October 2014 - 09:18 AM.

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#39 Zombee

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 01:37 AM

Thank you to all who have participated in this discussion. I hope it is OK to bring it back up.

I am really trying to understand the magical need, or purpose for using bones in the modern world, that isn't a cultural appropriation or reconstruction, or any other -unction. I am trying to understand the value of such magical links as others have expressed in their comments. I know I'm missing the point by a couple miles. Would anyone be willing to share what you personally find enriching or pertinent about the practice of ritual uses of bones in your magical practice?

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#40 RapunzelGnome

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 01:31 PM

I don't know what you mean exactly, Zombee. The use of bones (or blood or body parts) in witchcraft is one of those rare things that seem to be used almost universally across cultures and generations. Anyone studying traditional witchcraft or folk magick in almost any tradition is gonna find a lot of bones being used. That does not need to fall under cultural appropriation if mindful respect is exercised.

Everything bone related comes to mind....from lucky rabbits' feet, or a chicken foot, reading/casting bones, ceremonial horns as vessels or horns, skulls as fetishes, using bones in witch's ladders and other spells...spirit rattles were often made of bone or shells, and then there's the toad bone ritual. Even the wishbone breaking that so many of us grew up with is a remnant of folk magic or the veneration of Saint relics. I would be curious to know if there were any witchcraft traditions that *didn't* use bones ritually and why that may be.

In my modern practice, bones are most valuable as a tool for necromancy, for connecting to the world beyond death. Bones and body parts seem to me to be "in between" things. Something that once held life but no longer does has a certain a quality of the "other" that helps me to connect to it easier. Any object can house a spirit, but for me personally, it's easier to draw a spirit into something that has already once held the spark of life (or a material that a spirit would feel some sort of remembrance of being connected to in life perhaps...such as bone). Skulls make powerful gateways. Also, I've found that magick done with certain bones tends to retain a bit of the character or traits of the animal the relics came from. My coyote skull tends to draw out the tricksters, while my bison skull is a more reverent meeting place.

Am I misunderstanding your question or is that the kind of answer you are looking for?

Edited by RapunzelGnome, 03 September 2016 - 01:36 PM.

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