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The curse of road kill parts...


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#1 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:00 AM

I started to place this in the existing thread dealing with road kill bones and cleaning http://www.tradition...-from-roadkill/ but then though the direction and discussion I hope to inspire would not fit into that thread without badly derailing it.  SO with that in mind I elected to create this thread and perhaps see where it would go.

 

Over the years I have seen a number of roadkill creatures.  Some common, some exotic and what one might classify as rare and endangered.  Some I admit I have paused about thinking should I or could I take some part from those creatures to use in my magical or spiritual workings?  Yet for some reason I have always tended to error on the side of not choosing them as I was taught to a great degree they are cursed and would work against any magics I performed unless it was baneful or maligned in purpose.  A perspective which seems contrary or counter to the notion of using every usable part of the body of an animal I killed while hunting.

 

The more I though about it the more it occurred to me the reason I see roadkill as used for baneful or malign works is the way they were killed.  They weren't killed with honor and respect.  They weren't killed with thanks or consideration of their life force and spirit.  They weren't even killed as part of the cycle of life and the rotation of the living wheel.  No, they were killed in perhaps the most traumatic way.  Their bodies crushed and broken as they were smashed into by some vehicle or critically harmed and then left to languish in great pain and agony as they struggled to get away from the location.  Many times run over and over again as other vehicles struck their bodies as they lay in the road.  Some suffering the extreme in death in that they were not even in a place to normally be killed yet some driver swerved to strike them and took great joy and even pride in the doing so.

 

Now humanity wise we'd not use the bones of a human killed in such a fashion under normal circumstances.  Heck, realistically we only use bodies donated to medical science by loved ones or via last will and testaments.  Perhaps those who were executed for their crimes and their bodies lay unclaimed in the hopes something good might be derived from the body of those who caused such harm and hurt.  Perhaps on some occasions to see what went wrong and try to understand why they behaved in such a manner.

 

So why use the bodies of the creatures that suffered such a death before the grill or under the tires of some vehicle?  If you believe that the spirit or soul can be connected to the bones then surely the spirit will be marred by the conditions of its death.  Like some human ghost that haunts the spot of his / her demise and suffers the repeated experiencing of its demise along with the pain, suffering, fear and all the other emotional baggage that goes along with such hauntings.  Many times forgetting I think that such traumatic deaths have frequently resulted in the ghostly instances of some spectral animal doomed to repeat its death.

 

I wonder at times am I the only one who has passed the mound of dirt along the side of the road used to cover the carcass of some deer and yes even a bear only to see the shadowy outline of the creature standing above it?  To follow some shimmering animal into the woods and have it lead you to its skeleton and know how it died and perhaps the manner of its death.  Gangrene has a different smell for instance than rotting flesh when the spirit has been thanked.  The rotting corpse of an animal who died in agony and suffering also has a different smell than one given a quick and relatively painless death.

 

I've had skulls or other parts that were claimed from roadkill given to me and I find them to be cursed, scared and scarred when trying to use them.  In some ways a spiritual piece that doesn't always allow the creature to drop its garb and cross into its next lifetime.  Not dissimilar to PTSD, shell shock or many of the human psychological and mental conditions experienced by humans.  But then again to a great majority of people, even pagans, animals are nothing more than creatures here for our use and dominion over them and are seen as property or less than and used how we desire not how we should.

 

I'll continue to use parts from those creatures whose lives I've ended and paid appropriate honorings and blessing for.  To use the parts of those creatures who've died natural deaths or deaths inflicted within the normality of their lives as predator or prey.  Perhaps even those creatures whose lives I ended early as their bodies lay crushed and broken upon the road or beside the road to ease their passage.  But in all honestly I can't use the parts of those creatures whose last moments were from being killed and tossed to the curb like some piece of trash or sporting event.  Those whose spirits and souls are as torn and broken as the bodies which gave them up as roadkill and left them to rot and decompose.

 

While I don't expect others to share my perspective and opinion reading the other thread and experiences with those broken spirits insists I write this out.


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#2 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:02 AM

I give up.  It is becoming the norm that when ever I post I am getting duplicate postings and time out errors when I hit enter.  Would one of the admins or Mods please delete this duplicate or the other post please.  Thanks in advance.


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#3 Caps

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:09 AM

One thing I have done when it does this to me (gives the time out error) is to hit back, copy the text just in case it didn't take, and go to the forum to see if it's already posted instead of hitting post again.


"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

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#4 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:11 AM

I never hit post again though.  I copy before I hit enter then the page goes to the error print.  Open in a new browser window or go to my bookmark in the original window and its duplicated the post.  But I never hit enter again for that posting.


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#5 Caps

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:12 AM

hmm I have no idea then :P


"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

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#6 Horne

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:14 AM

I get the time outs pretty often, never experienced duplicate posts though that I can remember.


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#7 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:17 AM

Man I wish I could separate the site time out stuff from the thread purpose.  Both are worthy discussions I think but really wish this one touched on why I posted the thread.  I know being greedy here he he he 


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#8 Michele

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 01:15 PM

I think that unless one wild-crafts everything (and I do mean everything, lol), they will always be using something that was not killed with true respect or understanding. Was the ocean thanked when the sea salt was taken and separated from the water and made into the salt someone is using to clean their (insert item name)? Was it told it would be used for cleaning? Was it respected by Morton or whatever brand sea-salt one is using? When one buys herbs... where they all grown wild and harvested and dried and preserved with magic in mind? When threads or yarn are used... did the company that picked the cotton or shore the sheep know how to do this on a magical level? Probably not. Perhaps there was terror in dying via a car... perhaps it was swift and clean. Perhaps it was just part of the cycle and something who's parts can be used and recycled, and what isn't used or needed can be buried and returned to the earth. At this point, if its in front of me and I need it, I will use it.

 

If I find bones on the hiking trail - I have no idea how the original animal died. Considering it was a wild animal the chances of it having dyed from old age are small. Unless I am specifically looking to call terror into a working, the bones for me would be only a connection to the animal they once were. So to me they could be used for whatever part of that connection one wanted to call upon. The bones would have a connection to anything and everything of that animal, and others of its kind. So there will always be terror, hunger, feeding, species-specific traits, etc., in any of the bones I might choose to gather.

 

Ignore me, I'm just cranky this morning, lol....

 

M


Edited by Michele, 11 October 2014 - 01:19 PM.

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#9 Aria

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 03:13 PM

I read the topic on the recovery of roadkill with interest, and this one is even more interesting. I pondered a bit about posting, because I do not know much about the subject but few things of my own path come to my mind.

 

Some of the rituals that have been passed to me, originally involved animal sacrifice. Now, the person who passed these to me told me that those were times for when people had animals around, like chickens, pigs, quails, donkeys, etc... In fact, we knew people who still lived on farms and practiced things the old way. I was adviced that we should in very few cases use things of animal derivation. This was a thing of younge people thing, as the people of the previous generation still used candles of pork fat (and laughed at the idea of beeswax). I was thaught that when we do use parts of animals as ritual elements, the animals must have been killed a certain way. 

 

All this to say,that I have never made use of roadkill in my practice, and I do not think I would do it. Michele, as you were writing of how roadkills die, your words projected it before my eyes. I can see the use of this in curses. But I cannot myself restrain to ask why it  would not be possible to achieve the same ritual aim without a roadkill. Sacrifice can be a much more powerful ritual tool, in my opinion. I do not see the advantage of working with materials that, as you say, carry a very strong charge. The only animal sacrifice I have done, and routinely do, in my practice is mosquitoes (I can hear you laughing) for a spell to get some relief from the annoying biters during humid summers. Speaking in broad terms, all kinds of animals can be ritually killed, and the remains make powerful magical objects. 

I hope this was not too OT!

 

Aria


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#10 hawkwind

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 03:47 PM

I would agree that I would never use bones from road kill as monsnoleedra feel the way I feel about it. Good post monsnoleedra!


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#11 Michele

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 03:54 PM

Everything that dies, dies of something. If you can see the animal getting hit by a car, can you also see the animal being eaten by a disease, or a fox, or a bear, or a whatever? Can you also see the animal playing in the grass as a pup (or young whatever it was), and nursing at its mother's teat? Can you see it hiding during a storm, sunning on a rock? Just because it eventually died by a car rather than by a disease or by being eaten, doesn't erase its experiences, nor the memory of those experiences, nor the memory of its species.

 

I'm not into animal sacrifice. I know some people are, its just not personally my thing. And if I needed crow bones, and I found a dead crow in the road, I'd certainly use them over killing a live crow. Why waste a life? Why waste free bones? Why kill something else needlessly? 

 

But everyone practices their craft differently, so there will be a million differing opinions on it, lol. None are right or wrong, depending on one's path and to what one answers, lol. That's one thing I like about winter - no mosquitoes, lol...


Edited by Michele, 11 October 2014 - 04:01 PM.

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#12 hawkwind

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:05 PM

My view is that an animal being crushed by an ignorant driver who doesn't care about the life of this animal is being killed needlessly.


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#13 ArcticWitch

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:18 PM

Monsno, your post was impeccably timed in regards to my current situation.

 

I'm dealing with my first "cursed roadkill" scenario this week.  In the past, I've gotten the impression that the roadkill animals I've worked with were killed instantly.  However, the roadkill porcupine I collected earlier this week is brimming with angsty energy.  I did the usual ritual I've done in the past to pay respects to its spirit and help it move on, but it has felt like an exercise in futility with this creature.  Fortunately, the weather has been hovering right at freezing since it was collected on Wednesday, so decomposition is minimal and I've been able to take my time figuring out what to do with it.  I decided yesterday that I will most certainly not be collecting its skull for workings.

 

Mons, your mention of smell also caught my eye.  I was remarking to my partner that although the porcupine never came in direct contact with my skin or clothing, the stench of death permeated our house all day- the smell was significantly stronger than what was actually being emitted by the carcass outside.  I've never had such an experience with previous roadkill I've worked with (which I got the impression all died very quickly, whereas the moment I touched the porcupine to remove him from the road, I was hit with the sensation of long suffering).

 

The perspectives and interpretations in your post are 100% accurate in the context of my own current situation.  +1 for so well describing what some of us experience with roadkill.

 

[Edited for clarity]


Edited by ArcticWitch, 11 October 2014 - 05:04 PM.

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#14 Michele

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:34 PM

This reminds me of a story of a cursed table. It was made of wood from some small town in a European country.,  From the door of a cottage. The table had been the kitchen table, and the family had been killed in the kitchen during the war. Not by a bomb but by soldiers who killed the family in horrible ways, and the lady was the last to die after her husband and her children had been killed before her eyes. A lady who was afraid to have children for fear of losing something she would love so much was shopping for tables. And she bought this one. Long story short, she started having conversations with the memories that were attached to the table. And she saw the fear and terror and horror of the last memory. But as she continued to talk to the memories, and to go further back, she also saw the good memories, the daily life, the hopes, joys, the hungry times and the harvests. And the memories told her that the last memory does not erase all the good memories. Nor does the horrible memory have the power to take away the joy of the wonderful memories unless we give it that power. And the lady decided she would have children, because she had learned that whatever happened, nothing could erase the love she felt, and that memories can last forever, but it's up to us to choose which ones we give power.

 

If you are working with bones, it will be up to the witch to dictate which memories are made powerful, are called upon, which traits and aspects are called to the top. All bones hold good and bad experiences. The last memory only holds sway if we do not dictate to the memories/traits which one is being called upon.

 

M


Edited by Michele, 11 October 2014 - 04:39 PM.

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#15 Gyreleaf

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:01 PM

For me its not a one size fits all kind of situation. Whether its road kill or an animal lying dead in the forest I follow my intuition and senses to see what is or is not the appropriate things to do. One of the forests I frequent has a road running through a part of it and I have come across road kill quite a few times. Usually I am working with the forest spirit there so I  get guidance from them, sometimes its to move the animal and bury it, sometimes its to move it and leave it uncovered for other animals (I got the impression the forest spirit had the deer killed on purpose as food for others). Sometimes I have been told to take a certain part but bury the rest. I have also been lead back to a badger (by a badger spirit) I buried to retrieve its skull.  Its the same when I find dead animals in the forest, although thats much more rare, usually its just bones.

 

Sometimes theres a sense of great pain and anguish but sometimes theres a sense of completeness, that whats done was meant to be done for a purpose beyond human insight. In all cases the bones and parts I kept have worked well for me.


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#16 Aria

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:08 PM

Everything that dies, dies of something. If you can see the animal getting hit by a car, can you also see the animal being eaten by a disease, or a fox, or a bear, or a whatever? Can you also see the animal playing in the grass as a pup (or young whatever it was), and nursing at its mother's teat? Can you see it hiding during a storm, sunning on a rock? Just because it eventually died by a car rather than by a disease or by being eaten, doesn't erase its experiences, nor the memory of those experiences, nor the memory of its species.

 My reference to seeing it was referring to your detailed depiction of roadkill. Of course, may you depict something else, I will see it too. What I was referring to was not the particular circumstances of the death, but the fact that I wouldn't use something that is dead and has been left rotting on a street, with cars going over and everything. Of course,everyone has their ways.

Can I ask you what you mean by 'memory of the species'?
 

I'm not into animal sacrifice. I know some people are, its just not personally my thing. And if I needed crow bones, and I found a dead crow in the road, I'd certainly use them over killing a live crow. Why waste a life? Why waste free bones? Why kill something else needlessly?

As I already said, me neither. I think animal sacrifice was something for when people had animals, and livestock would be a source of wealth. I already made clear that I think some ritual endings are absolutely achievable without things that derive from dead animals. In the ways I know we avoid use anything that comes from animals that have died. The old people who still uses animal things, they normally had sacrificed the animal before.
 

But everyone practices their craft differently, so there will be a million differing opinions on it, lol. None are right or wrong, depending on one's path and to what one answers, lol. That's one thing I like about winter - no mosquitoes, lol...

Of course, that's the fun of discussion :smile:

Aria


Edited by Aria, 11 October 2014 - 05:08 PM.

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#17 Horne

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:09 PM

 

While I don't expect others to share my perspective and opinion reading the other thread and experiences with those broken spirits insists I write this out.

...............................................

 

Monsno, thanks for writing such an elaborate post about your views, it is thought provoking as usual. I respect your views and you have made it absolutely clear where you are coming from on this. I'll share some of my own perspectives on using roadkill, and other dead animals I find, as I do sometimes take what I find and use it.

 

I only take an animal or parts of it with me when it clearly "speaks" to me. If not, I leave it where it is and call the animal ambulance to come collect it. I usually say a little prayer over any dead animal I find, whether I take it or not, and whether I have known it or not prior to its demise. I also only take animal species I feel a connection with and so it gets my utmost respect. I also thank the creatures for having been a part of this world of the living and I express I'm sad for their traumatic deaths when hit by traffic.

 

Also, I usually only use fresh roadkill I know was just hit or died by accident, like the coot on a bridge I found (hit by car) and which I must have fed numerous times, or the pigeon that flew itself to death against a wall when me and my friend were standing by. They were neighbourhood birds and they were my friends and I enjoyed them while alive.

 

The pigeon was one of many me and my friend feed daily, it flew against a wall, fell to the ground coughing up blood, and my friend picked it up and tried to comfort it (she has an amazing connection with birds, I call her the bird whisperer) and it died when she held it. I said I'd bury it (I didn't mention I was going to use it as she's a christian and knows nothing about me being a witch), and I dug it up this week, and its bones and skull feel amazingly powerful.

 

I had acces, alas, to many dead ducks and rats who died this summer from a combination of botulism and sewer overflow, and we (me and mentioned friend) collected them as soon as we spotted them from the local canal to prevent water quality going even further downhill. None of the animals spoke to me, and though it would have been so easy to get a huge collection of their parts, it just didn't feel right. I guess that's my criterium for taking animals or not, there has to be a connection and a meaningful one at that, otherwise their parts wouldn't be of any good use.

 

It's a little different with random bones I find, as I clearly had no connection with the animals they belonged to, and I mostly haven't even got a clue what exact species they are. I only take them when I feel I can use them for anything significant and specific and it feels right to take them with me.

 

I don't hunt, I wouldn't know how to and learning doesn't exactly fit my urban lifestyle, but I can see the connection between hunter and game to be of huge value.

 

Considering animal sacrifice, I've never done it and I think I never will as I rather connect with animals while they are alive.


Edited by Horne, 11 October 2014 - 05:23 PM.

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#18 Horne

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:11 PM

Man I wish I could separate the site time out stuff from the thread purpose.  Both are worthy discussions I think but really wish this one touched on why I posted the thread.  I know being greedy here he he he 

............................

 

Maybe one of the Admins or Mods can split the thread? I know it belongs to the possibilities.


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#19 Caps

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:38 PM

Better to use them for something rather than rotting in car fumes in my opinion. I suppose the vultures have to eat as well though. I have never had any bad results using either found bones or known roadkill, but I typically do not have problems with using animals at all.
"It is the still and silent sea that drowns a man." - Old Norse proverb

"It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."

#20 Anara

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 09:19 PM


Now humanity wise we'd not use the bones of a human killed in such a fashion under normal circumstances.  Heck, realistically we only use bodies donated to medical science by loved ones or via last will and testaments.  Perhaps those who were executed for their crimes and their bodies lay unclaimed in the hopes something good might be derived from the body of those who caused such harm and hurt.  Perhaps on some occasions to see what went wrong and try to understand why they behaved in such a manner.

 

___________________________________________________________________________________

 

Hi Monsno,

 

This is not entirely accurate. In tantra for example, it is a traditional idea to prefer the use of a human femur bone or skull cap taken from a criminal or from someone who died a traumatic, accidental, or violent death (executions included) to make a kangling or kapala for ritual purposes. There may be other instances/traditions where this is also true-I don't know for sure, but my guess is probably "yes". Not saying I agree or disagree with this practice...Just saying is all. Granted, you did say human bones wouldn't be used like this under "normal" circumstances. That, however, depends on your definition of normal, I guess.

 

Other than that, I can appreciate your post and respect your opinion-but this is not generally the way I personally do things. If something calls out to me, I will take it and use it. If it doesn't, I won't. For me, each situation will be different. I guess, for me, the bottom line is "it depends".

 

Enjoyed reading your post though.


Edited by Anara, 11 October 2014 - 09:57 PM.

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