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Ethics in Magic- What's your take charging people for work and other questions.


bewitchingredhead

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What's everyone's take on the following subjects regarding certain ethics in magic-

Do you think it's wrong for people to charge others for their services? Some examples include, but are not limited to, teaching magic, metaphysical, divination (like tarot), etc. classes, charging others to cast spells for them, charging for online readings, etc. Why or why not?

 

Do you think it's wrong to do work on others without their permission? For example, you have a sick relative and do a healing spell for them w/o their knowledge. Or on the "darker" side (for lack of a better word), cursing a child molester, rapist, etc. for someone other than yourself. As in you're not the victim, but your best friend is, or your best friend's kid, etc. Why or why not?

 

Do you think it's wrong to do magic for others with their permission? A couple of different scenarios for you- Someone to whom you are close knows you practice witchcraft, but they do not themselves (for whatever reason) asks you work a spell on/for them and believe you're capable of what they are asking you to do- essentially they believe IN witchcraft but do not walk the path themselves. Do you help them? Why or why not?

Someone close to you asks for your help in the same fashion, except they're of a specific religion that does not practice and/or allow witchcraft. Do you help them? Why or why not?

 

If you're not opposed to the above, do you have a limit/threshold of what you will and/or won't do for them? Would your ego get in the way of deciding to help someone? Meaning, if you're pretty much opposed to performing magic for another person to whom you are close, do you think you'd let your ego get in the way and do it regardless of your personal ethical beliefs? 

 

Have you ever crossed a line or even willingly done a spell for another person that you later regretted? If so, what did it involve and why did you come to later regret it?

 

 

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For me, I have a full time job and do not need to supplement my income with activities I do, or to run the risk of developing the activity full time, or too often for people because word of mouth my spread of any perceived ability I have.

 

If a friend invites me to help, I help no questions asked.

If a friend does not invite me to help, and if it is something I think they need help with, I will try to help that person's psyche to deal with it on their own terms.

I would not charge for any of these scenerios.

 

If a non-friend asks me to help, I'm not going to charge them. I would be relatively vague in my overall availability to help in future circumstances. They may either make it a one-time thing, or may have this person want to stick around and learn more. If they pull out money, although tempting to take, I would tell them they need it more than I do.

 

If a non-friend is having problems and does not invite me to help, and if it something that has no bearing on me, or my friends, or my family, I would have no reason to do any magic

 

If I were starting a magical business (or whatever) I would charge as the rules of business dictate.

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I do not see anything wrong with charging for a service or item, if said person is capable of providing the service or item (and that's a BIG "if").

 

I don't get involved in things that don't involve me. That said, often something crosses your path because it does involve you, even if you don't realize it at the time. But people will also see things crossing their paths that just happen to be there, not because some "greater" intelligence is putting it there so they can save the world. I am not responsible for things that are not my responsibility. And once one takes a magical action, that person or thing does become your responsibility.  I get involved in the mundane more... like giving practical help to someone looking for a job, donating clothes to the needy, etc. More a lifestyle of not wasting than of magically stepping in.

 

I rarely (if ever) do magic for others outside of the family. If someone asked me to do something it would depend on my personal ethics on their situation and also on their own contribution to their situation. Not to mention whether or not I feel I have the ability to effect the situation without making it worse, of just getting myself bogged down in their drama. 

 

I don't get involved in things that don't concern me. If something causes concern, then I get involved. If my best friend were raped, I'd be more likely to concentrate on my friend and get her into a local therapy/counseling/support group where she could find the help she needs to recover. If she was being stalked (and it was a true stalking, not a panic reaction to a bad break up), and she asked me for help, I might step in but I would also act mundanely. If she didn't ask, I wouldn't do anything other than offer mundane advice. 

 

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Personally, charging or not for a working isn't something I have to worry about, as I'm not a known practitioner. Only three people know (and understand what it means as they're on a similar path themselves) I'm a witch. I would be very hesitant to charge anyway, as I would feel obliged to deliver exactly what a person wanted, and from what I understand magic doesn't work that way, there's not a 100% guarantee things work out exactly as expected.

 

I rarely work for others, but when I do it's always about something I am personally involved in or with, and I have to know these others very well and care about them deeply, and there should be a strong need or emergency before I even consider stepping in. I'm usually willing to help out or offer advice wherever I can in my daily interactions with people, but I'm not the kind at all to lightly consider any magical interference all the time. 

 

Shortly stated, I don't like sticking my nose into somewhere it doesn't belong as it's none of my business nor my priority to meddle with things that don't personally concern me.

 

I don't hesitate to work for someone without them knowing, I don't think it's wrong to leave them ignorant of things and keeping things to myself, as long as I feel a genuine need or cause to undertake something for them. One of my dearest friends would absolutely freak if she knew I helped her out the way I did, but I'm glad I was able to assist resolve an "issue" for her all the same.

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Guest monsnoleedra

I personally would not charge for something I do for another.  However, I also acknowledge I do not do a great amount of stuff nor have dedicated a great portion of my energy, focus and life to performing a given function.  I am aware of a number of people who barter for services or simply ask for donations of either money or goods for their services.  Consider for comparison many Native type practitioners will do a Sweat Lodge and ask only for donations of materials to off set the cost of such an event.

 

I refuse to do any sort of magical practice without permission.  Basic position is I am not privy to what is going on and only see a possible surface result and do not think it appropriate to try and initiate an action due to that.  Sorry divination, vision, guessing, etc simply does not reveal what all is involved nor exactly how the person is being influenced by it.  In that regard I truly think paganism has become sloppy and assuming or self serving which goes more towards appeasing their own ego vice actually knowing what another is experiencing / feeling.

 

I additionally base that off the position I despise having people assume what I need or do not need and try to take an action.  I may choose to allow a condition to continue as I believe there is more to it even if it causes me immediate pain and discomfort.  Yet the best intentions cause more harm than good and seldom do anything to really change the scenario that is unfolding.  That is not to say I will not talk to other's to get a differing or perhaps clearer perspective of what is ongoing or that I might be blocking or lessening in its importance.

 

Since I despise it being done to me i'll not do it to another.  If asked then I only will go as far as my own morals and ethics allow

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I found some threads that discuss the questions you are asking.

 

What's everyone's take on the following subjects regarding certain ethics in magic-

Do you think it's wrong for people to charge others for their services? Some examples include, but are not limited to, teaching magic, metaphysical, divination (like tarot), etc. classes, charging others to cast spells for them, charging for online readings, etc. Why or why not?

 

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/10114-business-and-witchcraft

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/9995-payment-for-spiritual-services-attitude

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/8727-taking-payment-for-spell-craft/

 

 

Do you think it's wrong to do work on others without their permission? For example, you have a sick relative and do a healing spell for them w/o their knowledge. Or on the "darker" side (for lack of a better word), cursing a child molester, rapist, etc. for someone other than yourself. As in you're not the victim, but your best friend is, or your best friend's kid, etc. Why or why not?

 

Do you think it's wrong to do magic for others with their permission? A couple of different scenarios for you- Someone to whom you are close knows you practice witchcraft, but they do not themselves (for whatever reason) asks you work a spell on/for them and believe you're capable of what they are asking you to do- essentially they believe IN witchcraft but do not walk the path themselves. Do you help them? Why or why not?

Someone close to you asks for your help in the same fashion, except they're of a specific religion that does not practice and/or allow witchcraft. Do you help them? Why or why not?

 

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/10763-manipulation

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/9386-the-morality-of-magic/

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/8985-consent-and-permission-vs-good-judgment/

http://www.traditionalwitch.net/forums/topic/3983-ethics-magic/

 

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What's everyone's take on the following subjects regarding certain ethics in magic-

Do you think it's wrong for people to charge others for their services? Some examples include, but are not limited to, teaching magic, metaphysical, divination (like tarot), etc. classes, charging others to cast spells for them, charging for online readings, etc. Why or why not?

I think it depends on the person.  Just recently I was seriously considering going pro as a tarot reader.  Guess what happened?  My cards stopped talking to me.

 

I have no problem with professional witches.  If that's where their craft and life have taken them - more power to them.  I don't think it's for me - at least not at this time.

 

Do you think it's wrong to do work on others without their permission? For example, you have a sick relative and do a healing spell for them w/o their knowledge. Or on the "darker" side (for lack of a better word), cursing a child molester, rapist, etc. for someone other than yourself. As in you're not the victim, but your best friend is, or your best friend's kid, etc. Why or why not?

I do what I do.  I don't always ask permission but I rarely use my Craft outside of me and mine.

 

Why would anyone ask permission to curse bottom feeding scum?

 

Do you think it's wrong to do magic for others with their permission? A couple of different scenarios for you- Someone to whom you are close knows you practice witchcraft, but they do not themselves (for whatever reason) asks you work a spell on/for them and believe you're capable of what they are asking you to do- essentially they believe IN witchcraft but do not walk the path themselves. Do you help them? Why or why not?

Someone close to you asks for your help in the same fashion, except they're of a specific religion that does not practice and/or allow witchcraft. Do you help them? Why or why not?

I think that is entirely case specific.  I've rarely turned down a request for help from someone close to me.  I may not do as originally requested but in these situations I've found that further discussion is usually needed.

 

If you're not opposed to the above, do you have a limit/threshold of what you will and/or won't do for them? Would your ego get in the way of deciding to help someone? Meaning, if you're pretty much opposed to performing magic for another person to whom you are close, do you think you'd let your ego get in the way and do it regardless of your personal ethical beliefs? 

I rarely do anything outside of my personal ethics.  If that's considered ego - then so be it.

 

Have you ever crossed a line or even willingly done a spell for another person that you later regretted? If so, what did it involve and why did you come to later regret it?

Of course I have.  That's why I rarely do anything outside of my personal ethics.

 

Regrets are a part of life.  We can learn from them.

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I enjoy crafting for others... if they thank me with a bottle of rum or a hunting knife, that's nice of them to do. But I do it freely.

 

If I think a spell will help someone, I'll ask them first ... it's only polite :wink: Others have shown me the same respect. 

 

For those who don't know what I am, there's ways around 'asking' outright... but, not everyone wants or needs help, so I won't waste my time. 

 

'Healing' without permission -- Nope.  

 

 

Is it wrong to charge for providing a service or teaching a skill? If the person wants to charge and others are willing to pay for expertise, how is that 'wrong'? 

Doing it to rip people off -- well, yeah... I'd call that 'wrong.'

 

I know people who will not charge because they consider their talent a gift, which came free... and I respect that !!

 

Cursing, well.... if someone fucks with me enough, that's 'permission' enough for me. Third party cursing for payment isn't within my ethics.

 

If someone has religious beliefs that dictate I'm going to hell for being a witch AND then asks for my magical help, would I help them? No reason leaps to mind. Call it Ego. IDC. 

 

I did a teeny, on-the-fly spell for friend who wanted this guy to leave her alone. After he left her alone, he turned his attention towards me... she wasn't happy about that... go figure.

 

I don't regret the spell, it worked well. I regret she wasn't prepared to have it REALLY work... or, the possible outcomes to his moving on. 

 

Sometimes regret lies with the person you crafted for, not the spell itself. Lesson learned. 

 

 

 

*I'd like to see you answer your own questions, BRH.*

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I don't have a problem with people charging for services - I charge for tarot/oracle readings and I make incenses, craft items and sell herbs. I do think when it comes to spellwork though, you have to be fairly confident of your outcome otherwise it could backfire (not metaphysically but the customer being pissed if the results aren't what they expect/want), it could cause more problems than not. However, I also don't have a problem with those who do. There seems to be a pattern of thinking that because it's spiritual, it should be free - for anyone. I always adhere to the idea that it is a service and one should be paid for that service in whatever way sits right with that person. After all, you wouldn't expect your doctor or plumber or electrician to provide their service for free, why should a witch? I also respect those who choose not to charge, it really is to each their own, I would never presume to think what another should do in this type of circumstance.

 

I would not work on nor perform magic on some one without their permission unless there was mitigating circumstances. Cursing and hexing I don't have a problem with BUT I would only do it if it personally affected me. More often than not, I can't be bothered mustering up enough energy to give a shit about other people's problems. Especially people I don't know. 

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If someone wants something from me that requires the use of a physical resource, I'll usually sell/trade it...sometimes I even give away seeds for free with information on how to grow them.  I think my main take being along the lines of -- I'm not going to garden for anyone freely but I will freely answer questions on how to do it.  It's up to them to sow the seeds and put the energy into raising the plant.  I dunno if that makes sense.

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P.S. I'm assuming this thread-opening was referring to non-family people. My family is different... they are under my protection and management (whether they like it or realize it or not, lol).

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I personally would not charge for something I do for another.  However, I also acknowledge I do not do a great amount of stuff nor have dedicated a great portion of my energy, focus and life to performing a given function.  I am aware of a number of people who barter for services or simply ask for donations of either money or goods for their services.  Consider for comparison many Native type practitioners will do a Sweat Lodge and ask only for donations of materials to off set the cost of such an event.

 

I refuse to do any sort of magical practice without permission.  Basic position is I am not privy to what is going on and only see a possible surface result and do not think it appropriate to try and initiate an action due to that.  Sorry divination, vision, guessing, etc simply does not reveal what all is involved nor exactly how the person is being influenced by it.  In that regard I truly think paganism has become sloppy and assuming or self serving which goes more towards appeasing their own ego vice actually knowing what another is experiencing / feeling.

 

I additionally base that off the position I despise having people assume what I need or do not need and try to take an action.  I may choose to allow a condition to continue as I believe there is more to it even if it causes me immediate pain and discomfort.  Yet the best intentions cause more harm than good and seldom do anything to really change the scenario that is unfolding.  That is not to say I will not talk to other's to get a differing or perhaps clearer perspective of what is ongoing or that I might be blocking or lessening in its importance.

 

Since I despise it being done to me i'll not do it to another.  If asked then I only will go as far as my own morals and ethics allow

I will say that this is what/how I've been taught for the most part. I say for the most part bc even though it's what I've been taught regarding ethics in those situations, including the one where you mentioned how you may chose to let/allow a condition to continue for whatever reason, the people who've influenced me, aided me in my journey, etc. are not hypocrites and have made their share of "mistakes" in that regard and are merely offering guidance instead of hard "rules" (if that makes any sense). Additionally, I don't necessarily share the exact same values/moral code at the moment, so it wouldn't be honest for me to say otherwise. Especially since everyone's been so honest and open in this thread (which I appreciate btw). :smile:

 

The part in italics and underlined- I must sheepishly admit that I haven't really considered that aspect very much at all. Admittedly, I'm also a pretty big control freak, which is not a very healthy attribute to say the least. Even though I despise the thought of someone else thinking they know better than I do about what I need/don't need and ultimately acting upon it, there are some times that I think they might be right. It's a difficult thing to admit-but it also leaves too many things open to interpretation and acting upon certain situations in which they might actually be wrong/not do the right thing. Which also means that I have to be humble enough to realize the same rules should apply to magic I perform on others. That one's gonna give me some troubles for a while I can tell already, lol...lordy!

 

Thank you Wex! :smile:  I enjoy the human psyche in general and very much enjoy reading/hearing others' perspectives on many issues- they don't necessarily need to be controversial topics though; I like to try to find/figure out the "why" in most situations and/or questions I pose, not just to others but myself as well. To use several of the most well known cliches (for lack of a better term), the  "why are we here", "what's our purpose in life", "is there an afterlife" and so on.  Often much can be ascertained by answers to rather ordinary questions and/or situations.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to find and link those threads for me.  I noted your responses and was wondering if your view on certain things has changed since your last replies? 

 

 

 

What's everyone's take on the following subjects regarding certain ethics in magic-

Do you think it's wrong for people to charge others for their services? Some examples include, but are not limited to, teaching magic, metaphysical, divination (like tarot), etc. classes, charging others to cast spells for them, charging for online readings, etc. Why or why not?

I think it depends on the person.  Just recently I was seriously considering going pro as a tarot reader.  Guess what happened?  My cards stopped talking to me.

 

I have no problem with professional witches.  If that's where their craft and life have taken them - more power to them.  I don't think it's for me - at least not at this time.

 

Do you think it's wrong to do work on others without their permission? For example, you have a sick relative and do a healing spell for them w/o their knowledge. Or on the "darker" side (for lack of a better word), cursing a child molester, rapist, etc. for someone other than yourself. As in you're not the victim, but your best friend is, or your best friend's kid, etc. Why or why not?

I do what I do.  I don't always ask permission but I rarely use my Craft outside of me and mine.

 

Why would anyone ask permission to curse bottom feeding scum?

 

Do you think it's wrong to do magic for others with their permission? A couple of different scenarios for you- Someone to whom you are close knows you practice witchcraft, but they do not themselves (for whatever reason) asks you work a spell on/for them and believe you're capable of what they are asking you to do- essentially they believe IN witchcraft but do not walk the path themselves. Do you help them? Why or why not?

Someone close to you asks for your help in the same fashion, except they're of a specific religion that does not practice and/or allow witchcraft. Do you help them? Why or why not?

I think that is entirely case specific.  I've rarely turned down a request for help from someone close to me.  I may not do as originally requested but in these situations I've found that further discussion is usually needed.

 

If you're not opposed to the above, do you have a limit/threshold of what you will and/or won't do for them? Would your ego get in the way of deciding to help someone? Meaning, if you're pretty much opposed to performing magic for another person to whom you are close, do you think you'd let your ego get in the way and do it regardless of your personal ethical beliefs? 

I rarely do anything outside of my personal ethics.  If that's considered ego - then so be it.

 

Have you ever crossed a line or even willingly done a spell for another person that you later regretted? If so, what did it involve and why did you come to later regret it?

Of course I have.  That's why I rarely do anything outside of my personal ethics.

 

Regrets are a part of life.  We can learn from them.

 

 

 

 

I don't think I would really classify that as ego. From what I gathered you said you rarely do anything outside of your own personal ethics. I more so meant that question along the lines of the way MonSno answered the part I bolded of his above. Your own personal ethical position regarding doing work on another person is just that, your own. It's not for me to judge and say what's right/wrong for another person. I respect differing opinions. What about doing healing work on a person w/o permission? Do you have a different opinion in that type of situation compared to cursing someone whom you feel to be deserving? 

 

I meant that if you (collectively not individually) hold a personal set of ethical beliefs would you let your ego get in the way of doing something outside of your own personal ethical code. If someone's personal ethical code included not cursing people or doing magic on or for someone (regardless of the cause- no matter if it's for help or for harm/curse) w/o their knowledge and/or permission, would they let their ego get in the way of their own personal ethical code.

 

I agree- cliche as it is, we do learn from our regrets...one way or another, lol

 

I enjoy crafting for others... if they thank me with a bottle of rum or a hunting knife, that's nice of them to do. But I do it freely.

 

If I think a spell will help someone, I'll ask them first ... it's only polite :wink: Others have shown me the same respect. 

 

For those who don't know what I am, there's ways around 'asking' outright... but, not everyone wants or needs help, so I won't waste my time. 

 

'Healing' without permission -- Nope.  

 

 

Is it wrong to charge for providing a service or teaching a skill? If the person wants to charge and others are willing to pay for expertise, how is that 'wrong'? 

Doing it to rip people off -- well, yeah... I'd call that 'wrong.'

 

I know people who will not charge because they consider their talent a gift, which came free... and I respect that !!

 

Cursing, well.... if someone fucks with me enough, that's 'permission' enough for me. Third party cursing for payment isn't within my ethics.

 

If someone has religious beliefs that dictate I'm going to hell for being a witch AND then asks for my magical help, would I help them? No reason leaps to mind. Call it Ego. IDC. 

 

I did a teeny, on-the-fly spell for friend who wanted this guy to leave her alone. After he left her alone, he turned his attention towards me... she wasn't happy about that... go figure.

 

I don't regret the spell, it worked well. I regret she wasn't prepared to have it REALLY work... or, the possible outcomes to his moving on. 

 

Sometimes regret lies with the person you crafted for, not the spell itself. Lesson learned. 

 

 

 

*I'd like to see you answer your own questions, BRH.*

 

Interesting- so for clarification are you saying that you won't third party curse for payment or you won't third party curse at all? I'm sort of confused when you say that you don't regret doing the spell itself for your friend, even though it backfired bc she wasn't prepared to have it really work or the possible outcomes to his moving on. If you say that sometimes the regret lies with the person for whom you crafted and not the spell itself and "lesson learned", how can you be so sure you "learned your lesson"? What distinguishes her from another close friend or even family member for that matter? The lesson learned was after the fact bc of the consequences for which your friend wasn't prepared, so how do you know the next spell you cast for someone will be any different? In fact, what if it's worse? 

 

In that regard, the following reply of MonSno's seems very apropos to this particular type of situation. His quote:

"Sorry divination, vision, guessing, etc. simply does not reveal what all is involved nor exactly how the person is being influenced by it. In that regard I truly think paganism has become sloppy and assuming or self serving which goes more towards appeasing their own ego vice actually knowing what another is experiencing/feeling".

 

I think that entire bolded paragraph is actually applicable here as well- so my main question now being, how can you distinguish all possible outcomes, concerns and possible pitfalls? Sure the spell as you cast it was successful, but you don't regret not thinking about those things in retrospect, only that you did the spell for her? Will you still do work for others not knowing all of these possible situations, internal issues of which you are not aware, and the numerous possibilities of unintended consequences, like in the case of your friend? 

 

Regarding your last query, sure I'd be happy to answer the questions for you. :smile:

 

No, I do not think it's wrong for people to charge for their services for several reasons. Some people dedicate their entire lives and/or pretty much every aspect of their lives to the craft. Does that necessarily mean they should or that they'd even be good at providing said services? Not at all...But who I am to tell them no? The onus (for the most part) is on the individual who pays for said services. Some people are born to lead, some are born to follow, some are born to march to the beat of their own drum, some are born with extraordinary talents valuable to the craft in some or many aspects, some are born incredibly precocious with an insatiable appetite to learn, and some are born to teach (and many more examples). In every single example given, there's the potential to utilize aspects of the craft for a living.

 

If your passion in and driving force your life IS the craft, or some aspect of it, I don't see anything wrong with charging for services. Hell, I wouldn't be in the happy place I am now w/o my mentor- for several reasons. Not just bc she teaches, that's just a bonus IMO, lol. My father's one wish for his children was that we all followed our true passion and didn't view going to work as "work" (mundane is another word comes to mind) not matter what it happened to be or what it paid. Ironically, aside from mass marketed pagan items like ritual tools made in China, I don't think many (or dare I say most) people in the craft who utilize an aspect of it for a living are particularly wealthy. 

 

Do I think it's wrong to work on someone w/o their permission? Well up until I had to consider what Monsno said about someone else performing magic on him based on what THEY think is his best interest, not too terribly much. Of course that would be/is based on the assumption that I'm "right" and/or know what's in their best interest. When it comes to things like illness, fear, hurt, pain, etc. of a very close friend and/or loved one, I've never had a problem doing magic on them w/o permission. I guess I kind of equate it w/Christians praying for me. Go ahead and do it even though I don't believe in your religion. I do believe the "power of prayer" works in many instances, but not for the reasons most people thing it does. I don't believe it's bc of Jesus or God, for example- I believe it's bc the person praying believes in that power beyond a shadow of a doubt, much like casting a spell. My experience though is that most people don't actually believe in their own prayers/God/whatever strong enough- there's almost always a doubt.

 

So yes, in those situations I don't really consider it wrong (or at least outside of my personal ethical beliefs)to do magic on someone w/o their permission. However, performing magic on someone else, permission or not, is a last, not first, resort. If it's a multi-faceted problem (as is the case typically), I do everything in my mundane power to help the person first. If it's a person who's ok w/me doing magic for them, I try to coach/guide them the best I can into doing most of the work themselves, since I believe a spell's more likely to be effective for a person if they do it themselves. It's also more empowering, of which I'm a huge advocate. I'm more of a proactive instead of a reactive person.  I don't immediately act out on perceived personal "slights". I truly don't care if some find this answer too sweet and kind, but if there's a nicer way to do something, I think it's almost always the better option. If someone were to cause emotional hurt for example, and I decided to use magic on them bc of it, I would try to utilize a spell that would show them/cause them to see in some way how they're actions have hurt another.

 

Another example, I wouldn't curse my husband if he were to cheat on me bc that kind of hatred, anger and bitterness is extremely toxic and unhealthy- it can consume you and eat away at you like a cancer. I've never really understood that rationale w/women frankly. Of course I can understand the initial shock, betrayal and anger, but if you're consumed w/rage over it enough to intentionally hurt another human being- one you claim to love, I don't see how you could actually have loved the person to begin with, much less yourself. Not to mention I have too much self respect to deal w/that kind of situation in that type of manner. I would be proactive and end the relationship, not reactive and curse someone out of spite. 

 

Does that mean I would never curse/hex someone? No fucking way. I would absolutely curse someone for fucking w/my child, sister, husband, etc., over truly heinous situations and/or situations in which the person I love is essentially powerless. Fuck yes I will. You rape, kill, molest any of my family and extremely close friends? I will be both proactive and reactive. I will proactively get that person professional help (provided they're alive- if they've killed a loved one of mine I'd get my ass help ASAP), pursue legal recourse/action, and then I will reactively curse you so that every time you take a piss it'll feel like you want to die, etc. (vary the details a bit depending on the reason for the curse). So I'm certainly not impervious or above that either. 

 

Would I do work for someone of a different religious background, one that views witchcraft is evil? Highly unlikely. I wouldn't be opposed to telling them what they could do if they're interested, but not personally do it for them.

 

​Have I performed a spell for someone and/or willingly crossed a line that I later regretted? Fortunately I have not as of yet. 

 

 

 

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If someone wants something from me that requires the use of a physical resource, I'll usually sell/trade it...sometimes I even give away seeds for free with information on how to grow them.  I think my main take being along the lines of -- I'm not going to garden for anyone freely but I will freely answer questions on how to do it.  It's up to them to sow the seeds and put the energy into raising the plant.  I dunno if that makes sense.

 

Makes perfect sense to me! he he ;)

 

 

P.S. I'm assuming this thread-opening was referring to non-family people. My family is different... they are under my protection and management (whether they like it or realize it or not, lol).

Both actually, but thank you Michele. I have to say that as of now that's how I feel and/or practice as well. Monsno's reply about not wanting people assuming what's best for him and acting on it has me thinking. Now if we're talking about my child? So long as she's still a child (and she will be for a long time since she's young) you're damn right that will still apply to her. I'm fortunate regarding my husband in that he's completely fine w/me doing whatever. He's "treading water" so to speak at the moment. It's quite amusing bc he totally believes in witchcraft/magic, but considers himself an atheist. :lol: Of course his explanation regarding believing in witchcraft is that he's SEEN it for himself. Literally...lol

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hmmm, I didn't leave a response on the scenario of doing beneficial magick for my family. Without a doubt, they do not have to ask me or give me permission, they are my blood. I am the protector of my family whether it be financial (when needed), safety, emotional, magickical, etc etc. There's no ifs or buts about that one and they don't have a choice. My idiot half brother christian preacher madman still has the protection of a witch, and he knows it and hates it, but still asks me for advice.

 

Doing beneficial magick for friends w/o them asking me ~ depends on the circumstance. If I'd tried to assist them in more mundane ways (read talking to them, giving financial assistance, telling some jerk to f--c off) and they still have a problem that needs magickal intervention (and if it is something that is truly going to hurt my friend) then I would find the root cause of the problem and not do some reactionary spell, but a spell to cause that circumstance to not go across the mind of other's again lest they be tormented in their dreams. It's best to send those people away and that they will not be their normal self if they do not pick up and leave.

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What about doing healing work on a person w/o permission? Do you have a different opinion in that type of situation compared to cursing someone whom you feel to be deserving?

 

 

I'm not a healer.  I rarely do healing work.  When it's needed I have a network of people I can turn to.  I don't generally bother them with small stuff.

 

I meant that if you (collectively not individually) hold a personal set of ethical beliefs would you let your ego get in the way of doing something outside of your own personal ethical code. If someone's personal ethical code included not cursing people or doing magic on or for someone (regardless of the cause- no matter if it's for help or for harm/curse) w/o their knowledge and/or permission, would they let their ego get in the way of their own personal ethical code.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. 

 

Are you asking if someone gets pissed off enough that they may curse even if they previously chose not to based on their own personal ethics?  I think in that situation that the person's ethical code changes as they grow.  I also think it's a pretty bad idea for someone who has spent their whole life refusing to curse and not knowing how to try to do so without first learning how.  Curses can go wrong in a whole lot of ways.

 

Another example, I wouldn't curse my husband if he were to cheat on me bc that kind of hatred, anger and bitterness is extremely toxic and unhealthy- it can consume you and eat away at you like a cancer. I've never really understood that rationale w/women frankly. Of course I can understand the initial shock, betrayal and anger, but if you're consumed w/rage over it enough to intentionally hurt another human being- one you claim to love, I don't see how you could actually have loved the person to begin with, much less yourself. Not to mention I have too much self respect to deal w/that kind of situation in that type of manner. I would be proactive and end the relationship, not reactive and curse someone out of spite.

 

 

It's easy to assume you would take the 'high road' if you've never been in that situation.

 

Part of creating a curse is to put all of that betrayal, pain, anger/rage, etc into powering the curse so that you can remove it from yourself.  Curses can be quite healing to the caster in that way.

 

It's not spite - it pain.  There's a difference.

 

It's an easy exercise to think about what we'd do in a painful situation.  One thing I've learned over the years is that it's only an exercise.  How a person behaves and what actions they choose to take when/if said situation happens to them can be very different than what they thought previously.

 

I've heard this referred to as 'Intellectual masturbation'. 

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... Monsno's reply about not wanting people assuming what's best for him and acting on it has me thinking. Now if we're talking about my child? So long as she's still a child (and she will be for a long time since she's young) you're damn right that will still apply to her. I'm fortunate regarding my husband in that he's completely fine w/me doing whatever. He's "treading water" so to speak at the moment. It's quite amusing bc he totally believes in witchcraft/magic, but considers himself an atheist. :laugh: Of course his explanation regarding believing in witchcraft is that he's SEEN it for himself. Literally...lol

 

I agree with MonSno's feeling about people imposing their beliefs/magics on him. I dislike it when people do that to me. One reason I rarely get magically involved unless I am asked and even then depends on my ethics (also a reason to take precautions of the self that if some do-gooder (or otherwise) does decide to meddle, they're blocked). Except where family is concerned. Because my ethics are my family will survive intact and supporting the craft I believe in. And this is a long-term work.... I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about my line, about my great-grand kid's great grand kids, etc.  Because life doesn't end with death. Now is only a moment. By the time I finish typing this sentence and put the "." on it, now will be gone and with it all the opportunities it brought. (There - now is gone, and a new now has started.)

 

It's up to me to recognize the opportunities and take advantage of them. Constantly. Continually. Ever watchful. Ever tweaking. It was a mistake I made once that is being corrected over time and generations. Because I don't believe in regrets. And I do believe the future is what we make of it.

 

Re "so long as she's still a child".... For me in my personal life, this was one of those "if I knew then what I know now" type of things, lol lol lol. Again, I don't believe in regrets. I believe in learning and not making the same mistakes. (Something my mother - who is not magical but is extremely practical - taught me.) Many people believe they will let their children be exposed to a myriad of beliefs and religions and "let them choose when they become adults." I can see that the only reason I did that (and my parents did it) was because neither they nor I had a solid belief system. If one had a solid belief system on really believed was the truth, then why would one ever let their child choose a lie or a false interpretation? But going back to assuming one knows what is best for one's child, and whilst that child remains a non-adult one has the right to step in but after that, no..... If your daughter was, say, 25, and (gods forbid) became a heroin addict, would you walk away and say "well it's her choice" or would you say "mom knows best" and step in, banish her druggie friends, get her into rehab, and do everything in your power both magically and mundanely to make sure she never again stuck a needle in her arm? Is that TRULY any different just because society supports you in that specific scenario? What if she really was perfectly happy being a drug addict? To this day I return to my mother constantly (and she's almost 86) for advice. She is a wealth of support and information. And I learned my true morals and ethics from her. And what comes first, and what is worth re-arranging my life for, and what is worth meddling in. And what is worth protecting, and even what is worth letting fall if there is a lesson that will serve them better. And that is my family. 

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Because my ethics are my family will survive intact and supporting the craft I believe in. And this is a long-term work.... I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about my line, about my great-grand kid's great grand kids, etc.  Because life doesn't end with death. Now is only a moment. By the time I finish typing this sentence and put the "." on it, now will be gone and with it all the opportunities it brought. (There - now is gone, and a new now has started.)

 

 

 

This is worth repeating!

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BRH ... It's interesting what you took from that.

 

No, I don't think I'd third party curse -- Not my Circus, Not my monkeys. 

 

As far as the teeny, on-the-fly-spell goes... it didn't backfire at all.  It worked perfectly well :smile:

 

I don't give a rat's ass that she wasn't prepared for it work -- it's a Be Careful What You Wish For scenario.  Again, not my circus. 

 

That MOMENT in time made me realize people sometimes don't know what the hell they really want. This was the closest thing to 'regretting' I could think of. 

 

You asked, I shared. 

 

Should it happen again, I'm back to not giving a rat's ass.

 

It's not that complicated. 

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Guest monsnoleedra

Sort of off topic but wonder if anyone has had outside forces take a direct action upon an ethical situation?  I've had two that stand out for me.

 

I was asked to look into a situation and take what I though to be appropriate actions on a person's behalf.  Was doing a bit of mental scrying and sifting through things when I had a vision appear either before me or upon my third eye.  I say either for even to this day I am not certain which it was.  Needless to say I was informed to keep my hands and energy off as the person was being conditioned and taught by their goddess.  If I was to continue even after being advised then I'd better be prepared for what ever action the goddess in question felt appropriate for my meddling.  Needless to say I stepped away and told the person what happened.  I did discover later the person was basically being punished for something I was not privy to when we first spoke about it.

 

The second was directed at me and my usage of craft skills.  Rosered can tell you some of it as I spoke to her in-depth about what was going on.  The story in a nut shell though is that I was placed in a situation where any action I took or though of taking in-regards to the situation was certain to both fail and i'd be smacked for it.  Lasted over a year and was a heck of a lesson in the illusion of control and influence by Hekate.  Let me tell you things take on a whole different perspective when you have to resist doing things less it make a situation worse.  In many ways its like flooded land, you simply have to wait until the waters finish their action and allow time for the affect / effect to be removed.  Anything else is peeing in the wind and coating yourself for the waters will not retreat any faster no matter what you try or would like to happen.  

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Monsno, I don't think this is off-topic at at all.

 

In fact, I thank you. 

 

You've beautifully illustrated how outside forces are compelling an experience and why it's sometimes best not to 'meddle' in another person's life/path/circumstance/lesson... and the fallout it can have on said witch. These are fascinating facets to explore.

 

_______

 

To answer your question... Yes. 

 

Once while traveling, I was WARNED by an ancestor not to do a certain thing.

 

Prior to the ethereal warning, I was not fully aware of how much danger I was REALLY in (or what would be done to stop me from going further... etc) 

 

An ethical factor was very much involved. 

 

A choice had to be made. Either way, there was a price to pay. 

 

_________

 

 

Monsno: The story in a nut shell though is that I was placed in a situation where any action I took or though of taking in-regards to the situation was certain to both fail and i'd be smacked for it. 

 

 

Even thinking about it, you got smacked? Yikes. But, when thoughts alone influence and, control is an issue... it makes sense. 

 

How long did it take you to figure out just thinking about the situation was a no-no?

 

What a lesson !! It seems both humbling and empowering at the same time (without knowing the gritty details). Very interesting. 

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Monsno, I don't think this is off-topic at at all. In fact, I thank you. 

 

You've beautifully illustrated how 'unseen' forces are compelling an experience and why it's sometimes best not to 'meddle' in another person's life/path/circumstance/lesson... and the fallout it can have on said witch. These are fascinating facets to explore.

---

 

I'll explore them.

 

Magick is usually the last resort for me with friends aside from good luck, protection, mental clarity, and healing. It's always best to talk it out in length before doing magick, as there are things that can be discovered that mundane things can take care of the situation. I believe we call that intuition to some degree.

 

I am not in the mindset that the goddess or hekate would be punishing someone or teaching them a lesson. That is the same mindset of the christian god is punishing someone for not following his ways. So whatever/whoever is controlling the situation I would not have a problem helping stop the root cause because I have no belief that divinity is doing that to a person.

 

But if I were to argue on your side of the fence... It would be tough when you see your friend having a hard time when you know that your meddling will have worse effects because you are less powerful than that god. Sometimes, through intuition, we can see a reason for not helping. But still doesn't mean you can't give support in mundane ways.

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I dont see a single problem with charging, as long as you dont manipulate people into buying your stuff (like telling fine people they have dark energy or some bullshit), and as long as you contribute something and arent a fake.  If the client doesnt want to pay, then they can work with someone else - it isnt anyones responsibility to give away all of their time and energy for nothing in return.  It is their choice, and a nice thing to do if they enjoy it, but not their responsibility at all.

 

Some of the ceremonies I do will take me 2-3 whole days to perform, and I have to spend $50-100 on materials (not all my ceremonies are like this, just my most effective and favorite).  That means for at least 2 days straight, all of my time and energy is focused on 1-2 clients.....  Pretty hard to support yourself if you have to give away 2 days at a time for free each time you have a client....  Also, I have experienced people taking advantage of free work before - they just keep asking for more, and never want to do their part, because you can fix their problems for free!  This isnt always the case - just sometimes.

 

I think a lot of this has to do with how many clients you work with, and what type of work it is.  I always give advice for free, and sometimes do work for free (which sometimes means I pay to help someone else).  For me, everything is on a case by case basis with ritual.  

 

 

As for helping people without their permission....  I will pray for anyone, whether they asked me to or not.  Nothing would ever get forced on them this way, and maybe something nice will happen.  Again, this is a case by case basis.  Usually I would know the person, and know whether they would appreciate some assistance from me or not.  I have never really worried about this one - none of the work I would do in this regard would hurt anyone or manipulate them in any way.  

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Have you ever been in a situation where intense thinking can lead to magical action - whether intentional or not?  Or obsessive thoughts that lead to dark places?  While the situation played out in the mundane, the lessons that were learned were spiritual in nature.

 

I think that one of the most difficult lessons for a control freak to learn is to let go because you cannot control a damn thing other than to sit there and let some things play out.

 

SachaX - it was very different than a Christian type of thing.  There are trials and tests that need to be passed, or at least lived through, that prepare you for what comes next.  Even if it feels horrible at the time, the lessons that are learned, the tempering in fire and cold, the preparatory acts, I feel, are worth it in the end.

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Have you ever been in a situation where intense thinking can lead to magical action - whether intentional or not?  

 

Yes I have and it is scary that I can put things in motion so easily- With me it happens when high personal emotion; anger- love, sorrow have taken hold of me.

I have learned to conciously "hold my magical tongue" as Jevene would say

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Have you ever been in a situation where intense thinking can lead to magical action - whether intentional or not?  Or obsessive thoughts that lead to dark places?  While the situation played out in the mundane, the lessons that were learned were spiritual in nature.

 

I think that one of the most difficult lessons for a control freak to learn is to let go because you cannot control a damn thing other than to sit there and let some things play out.

 

SachaX - it was very different than a Christian type of thing.  There are trials and tests that need to be passed, or at least lived through, that prepare you for what comes next.  Even if it feels horrible at the time, the lessons that are learned, the tempering in fire and cold, the preparatory acts, I feel, are worth it in the end.

----

 

Are you calling me a control freak?  :sad:

 

I mentioned the christian thing because that is what it sounded like to me.

 

 

The trials an tribulations some speak of could also be that the person needs to see how when all mundane things won't resolve the issue, magick is there in waiting, and that they can use it just the same that you can. I am not in the belief that the cosmos is requiring us to go through stages of learning to be better practitioners of magick. Just accept what you are, what you can learn to do about it, do it, and move on. Nature will be nature. Take charge of your own destiny. You will learn a great deal more if you don't just sit there are let it happen w/o fighting back. HAVING to learn a lesson? Horsehockey.

 

But as I said, that is how your path works, and that is great for you and right for you however it is that it is supposed to work. We are all on here giving out different perspectives and ideas.

 

I can see what you are all saying though. I was very good friends with a married couple, and when they were having their problems and going through divorce, I still saw both of them, were still great friend of theirs, and they both leaned on me for advise and magick. This was a situation where sticking my magick in other people's business is a bad idea. I did not want to hurt either of my friends, and so I only gave them emotional support.

 

There are certainly times when other people's problems is not your magical concern.

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